translating piano to orchestra

[navboy]

I have a short piano work that's a kind of hybrid romantic/classical with a melodic, tonal twist on 12-step technique and i've always heard much of it as orchestral with strings, ww, brass, etc.

But now that i'm orchestrating it in CubaseSX/Kontakt2/EWQLSO i'm having trouble in certain passages finding the right translation - strings sound good for much of it but when i try to take a break from the strings and use ww/brass to carry the focus for a while it always sounds muddy compared to the legato piano parts. I think i'm underusing violas as far as that goes and i've avoided sharp attacks for brass and ww since it IS supposed to be mostly legato, but i guess i keep wanting the clarity of the piano there and i can't seem to recreate that easily in many combinations. Any ideas?

[nikolas]

This is more of an orchestration problem I find, not a midi one. Do you have scores that you could share? Cause right now, it's tricky to see what you mean 100%.

Sorry for not being able to help any further.

[navboy]

This is more of an orchestration problem I find, not a midi one. Do you have scores that you could share? Cause right now, it's tricky to see what you mean 100%.

Sorry for not being able to help any further.

Ya, i saw Orchestration in the topic title and wasn't sure if they were lumping orchestration in with midi or what ... This particular section is not scored yet but i might be able to post a .wav of the piano part later ... It's basically 2 to 4 note quarter note sustains in the left hand (ranges from C3 thru middle C into C4) and legato phrasing of 8th note arpeggios in the right (ranges from C4 thru C5) . The whole thing is MP to Forte as it works its chromatic way up the keyboard to a climax then has a tumbling single-line-in-each-hand 8th note intervalic descending thing. Lots of sustain pedal through out to help resonance while phrasing.

Unlike other sections which have translated fairly well, i am having a hard time capturing the flowing, legato feel yet still well-defined and rhythmic effect of the piano characteristic in an orchestral setting. I had multiple woodwinds taking over the right hand passage from the violins to give the listener a break during this passage but reduced it to just bassoon, but even still it seems to lose the rhythmic definition here and there.

[nickysnd]

i am having a hard time capturing the flowing, legato feel yet still well-defined and rhythmic effect of the piano characteristic in an orchestral setting.
For the legato feel try this: in the piano roll window, select the desired notes then lengthen them a bit so they "sneak" a little under the attack of the subsequent ones.

For the clarity, you may want to consider doubling the attacks of the desired lines with a percussion instrument - pitched, like xylophone, celesta, glockenspiel, or unpitched, like woodblock, triangle, or, like Chris Walken used to say: MORE COWBELL! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVbAuMr5eac) :D

[ewkarl7777]

Hi Navboy - I don't know how much you know about orchestration, so forgive me if you already know this.

When orchestrating a piano piece, it is often necessary to change things around a bit. You don't just take the exact same notes and rhythms and assign them to the various instruments. And of course, an orchestra doesn't have a pedal.

Simple example: Imagine you had a simple, repeating, legato, eighth-note triplet pattern in the left had (C-E-G) and you decided you wanted to put it in the woodwinds. It may sound great on a piano (especially with the pedal smoothing things out) but not so great if you just have the winds playing C-E-G over and over in unison.

One solution would be to have flutes & oboes play E-G-E G-E-G, while the clarinets and bassoons hold a half-note C. That will sound much smoother and give you the sustained legato effect you want, whereas literally copying the piano part will not.

A good book on Orchestration will explain all of this and more. Good luck!

[navboy]

For the legato feel try this: in the piano roll window, select the desired notes then lengthen them a bit so they "sneak" a little under the attack of the subsequent ones.

For the clarity, you may want to consider doubling the attacks of the desired lines with a percussion instrument - pitched, like xylophone, celesta, glockenspiel, or unpitched, like woodblock, triangle, or, like Chris Walken used to say: MORE COWBELL! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVbAuMr5eac) :D

Interesting - next thing on my list to try was going to be xylaphone, since it's already slated to appear in a later section anyway. I have celesta mixed in another area on a run, but more for a magical effect than for clarity. But yeah, i've underused percussion at this point.

I did have my notes overlapping but now i've undone the overlap and using the QLegato it seems better than it was, although i do love that extra resonance that comes and goes with the overlaps ... hmm

[navboy]

Hi Navboy - I don't know how much you know about orchestration, so forgive me if you already know this.

When orchestrating a piano piece, it is often necessary to change things around a bit. You don't just take the exact same notes and rhythms and assign them to the various instruments. And of course, an orchestra doesn't have a pedal.

Simple example: Imagine you had a simple, repeating, legato, eighth-note triplet pattern in the left had (C-E-G) and you decided you wanted to put it in the woodwinds. It may sound great on a piano (especially with the pedal smoothing things out) but not so great if you just have the winds playing C-E-G over and over in unison.

One solution would be to have flutes & oboes play E-G-E G-E-G, while the clarinets and bassoons hold a half-note C. That will sound much smoother and give you the sustained legato effect you want, whereas literally copying the piano part will not.

A good book on Orchestration will explain all of this and more. Good luck!

I know just enough about orchestration to be dangerous. I've got basic knowledge of good blends, doublings, solo, etc, but really this is the most in depth thing i've done and i'm basically learning EWQLSO and more in-depth orchestration all at once. But, for example, i have no knowledge of any standard techniques for converting piano to orchestra, so the things you mentioned were interesting - i've been doing stuff kind of like that, but i'm sure i'm overlooking all sorts of possibilities. If there is a good book on orchestration that also goes into much discussion of converting piano as well as orchestration in general, i'd be happy to add it to my reading list.

One thing i am running into is a lack of MIDI channels in my Kontakt2 instance dedicated to the string section. There are 16 channels, and i've currently got the first 5 for first violins, the next 3 for second violins, the next 4 for violas, the final 4 for cellos, by deleting the top note of the double bass patches i've got the first 5 for double bass as well as first violins. But, i'm already running out of channels if i want to use more than a few patches for each, like sustained, legato, pizzicato, and sforzando, much less cool things like trills and whatnot. Do people end up building their own keyswitch instruments to deal with this or i wonder what the common approach is for those of us limited to one instance of our softsampler for each of the four major orchestra groups?

[nickysnd]

One thing i am running into is a lack of MIDI channels in my Kontakt2 instance dedicated to the string section.
And what prevents you from opening several instances of K2 in your sequencer? You can have one instance (16 channels) for 1st violins, then you can have a second instance for the second violins, a third one for violas, etc. You can open as many instances as your computer power and RAM allows you to.

Alternatively, you can open K2 as standalone, so you can have 64 channels. Then you can open a second K2 as standalone, i.e. another 64 channels. Etc. Then you assign your midi channels from your sequencer to the K2 ports and open there the articulations you need for your midi performance.

[navboy]

And what prevents you from opening several instances of K2 in your sequencer? You can have one instance (16 channels) for 1st violins, then you can have a second instance for the second violins, a third one for violas, etc. You can open as many instances as your computer power and RAM allows you to.

Alternatively, you can open K2 as standalone, so you can have 64 channels. Then you can open a second K2 as standalone, i.e. another 64 channels. Etc. Then you assign your midi channels from your sequencer to the K2 ports and open there the articulations you need for your midi performance.

Wow. Maybe i just need to try some new setups, though once i have something stable i hate to mess with it in the middle of a project, but this is interesting. Thanks very much.

I've always had the impression from the forums here and elsewhere that getting three or four instances of K2 running in a stable manner is doing well, and so for the very first time on this project i'm running four instances of K2, one each for strings, ww, brass, and percussion. The thought of opening a fifth, sixth or seventh never occurred to me as being feasible.

I asked about running the K2's in standalone mode to get the 64 channels, but someone said i'd need to buy some sort of MIDI virtual connection software and set all that up first and i just thought my system was already loaded down enough without even more midi drivers in the mix. Is there a link to a page somewhere that describes the process - if i had something specific it'd be easier to figure out a way to test running standalone instances and see what the trade-offs if any are for the extra midi channels gained.

[Kaatza_Music]

Wow. Maybe i just need to try some new setups, though once i have something stable i hate to mess with it in the middle of a project, but this is interesting. Thanks very much.

I've always had the impression from the forums here and elsewhere that getting three or four instances of K2 running in a stable manner is doing well, and so for the very first time on this project i'm running four instances of K2, one each for strings, ww, brass, and percussion. The thought of opening a fifth, sixth or seventh never occurred to me as being feasible.

I asked about running the K2's in standalone mode to get the 64 channels, but someone said i'd need to buy some sort of MIDI virtual connection software and set all that up first and i just thought my system was already loaded down enough without even more midi drivers in the mix. Is there a link to a page somewhere that describes the process - if i had something specific it'd be easier to figure out a way to test running standalone instances and see what the trade-offs if any are for the extra midi channels gained.

And don't forget that you can load banks in K2 so you can use just one channel for Vn I, one channel for Vn II and have all of the articulations that you want to use in the bank. Cuts down on the number of K2 instances that you need to open. You could have 5 banks of strings, 5 banks of woodwinds and 5 banks of brass in one instance of K2 and still have a channel left over.

[PaulR]

Yes - this is an orchestration issue. Don't afraid to keep changing things when they don't work - and when they do work, LEAVE it alone.

Orchestration is a lot like a painting and colours - one of the hardest thing for an artist to realize is when his painting is finished.

[dalek3]

If there is a good book on orchestration that also goes into much discussion of converting piano as well as orchestration in general, i'd be happy to add it to my reading list.

Joseph Wagner's "Orchestration" - it's out of print, but the entire book teaches orchestration through converting piano scores to orchestral scores. That's probably your best bet.

[ewkarl7777]

Dalek3's suggestion is good for what you're asking.

"Orchestration - A Practical Handbook" by Dr. Joseph Wagner.

I have it right here. Published by McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc. Copyright 1959

Maybe your local library has it (or can get it through inter-library loan)?

[CJRC]

Here is a PDF version of the Wagner orchestration book, through Truespec:

http://www.truespec.com/orchestration-practical-handbook-p-595.html

I can't seem to find the spiral-bound version that I purchased listed on their site anymore, but the text is excellent.

CJ

[dalek3]

It's available used from multiple online sources. I picked up my copy of it from a local used bookstore for like $5. The Peter Alexander republication doesn't really revise the original anyway to my knowledge so you save a lot of $$ by just getting the original McGraw Hill edition used.

[navboy]

1. I ordered the Wagner book used from Amazon today, should get here soon. Thanks for the suggestion. I really appreciate the information.

2. On the managing of MIDI channels, i've now got 5 instances of K2 running, for violins, rest of strings, ww, brass, perc. I've never used banks in K2, have always used multi's. If i can have all those channels using banks, surely there's some tradeoff? If you have lots of articulations loaded in a bank, how do you specify different ones?

3. I also have a question about how to do divisi parts when softsampling? I've been trying to create no finer lines than violin sections, and the small groups of flutes, trumpets, etc. but realized i'm just being limited by trying to avoid divisi parts. So, how do you all write divisi parts without making it sound artificially full (divisi in a real orchestra diminishes the power of the group, while in our samplers it amplifies it)???

[nickysnd]

If you have lots of articulations loaded in a bank, how do you specify different ones?
Simple: Each bank has 128 patches assigned to it, but I only need 2-4 articulation for each instrument. I am changing those patches/articulations by just hitting the program change buttons on my keyboard as I play. It is very straightforward, you should try and see, it might prove more convenient for you than using multis.

So, how do you all write divisi parts without making it sound artificially full
Simple: I don't care of what others might call "artificially full." :) When I need 4 first violins, I just add 3 first violins midi tracks and let them play. The rest is high brow discussions and splitting hairs. None of your clients will count the number of violins in your sample orchestra.

[dalek3]

3. I also have a question about how to do divisi parts when softsampling? I've been trying to create no finer lines than violin sections, and the small groups of flutes, trumpets, etc. but realized i'm just being limited by trying to avoid divisi parts. So, how do you all write divisi parts without making it sound artificially full (divisi in a real orchestra diminishes the power of the group, while in our samplers it amplifies it)???

You already know what divisi does in a real orchestra in terms of thinning the sound and making it sound more chamber-y, so you know when to avoid its use with a real orchestra. Treat your sampled orchestra as much as possible like a real orchestra as you are learning and if in a particular situation you would avoid divisi with a real orchestra I would say avoid it with a sampled orchestra. (Also keep in mind that you have all these nice other sections (woodwinds, brass) that can play full triads in a single section and fill in registers for you. If you just can't manage to put the strings somewhere to fill in a register, the woodwinds and/or brass can do quite nicely. Even trombones can sound nice and background playing pad in moderate registers.)

In situations that would call for divisi with a real orchestra, do not be afraid to do divisi with your sampled orchestra. The effect of divisi in samplers is normally not large enough to worry about. It is removed by using smaller string section sizes (if available), but even if you don't have smaller string section sizes, it doesn't really become a problem unless your section size is unnaturally large to begin with (i.e. if you have some huge section size sample say 36 violins playing unison will start doing weird things when you divisi that by 3 and you suddenly have 108 sampled violins!).

[navboy]

Patch management - i played around with the banks some and one thing about using Program Change is that in the piano roll editor in CubaseSX it's hard to work with that lane data - if it says "3" with the pencil tool it will be a "4" when you click it. You can select it later and edit its properties because it's definitely more of a pain than selecting midi notes and changing their channel properties - if i'm going to have concealed info i've got to drill down on, changing channels on notes seems easier to work. On the other hand, using the banks seems to open a lot more options at once up - i haven't tried it but i may ultimately combine the approaches it K2 will let put banks inside of my existing multi's, then i can use banks in certain situations to get more options out of a given midi channel in a multi. But it may not work that way.

On the divisi, i'm using the 16 violins patch for 1st violins and the 11 violins patch for 2nd violins. My concern is that if i want a passage where the 1st and 2nd are each split into two lines for a total of four, it'll sound way bigger than would be realistic. Similarly, with the 6 French horns patch, if i hit a section where i want three or four horn lines playing chords at once, it would technically be like 18 horns at once rather than six at once divided amongst three lines. If i had unlimited slots and channels and RAM i guess i could load up solo instruments for brass and the 3 violins etc patches for the divisi sections, but it seems like i'm aready pushing it with the full orchestra worth of standard groups loaded up with multiple articulations ... Mabye the effect really isn't as great as i'm worried it will be though.

[dalek3]

16 violins sampled playing div a 2 actually sounds less like 32 violins than you may think, so you should be able to get away with your example that you list in the strings without difficulty.

The horns section size are the bigger concern.. 6 horns playing triads = 18 horns sounds totally wrong. You'll need to use a 2 horns patch for the triadic parts for good results.

[navboy]

16 violins sampled playing div a 2 actually sounds less like 32 violins than you may think, so you should be able to get away with your example that you list in the strings without difficulty.

The horns section size are the bigger concern.. 6 horns playing triads = 18 horns sounds totally wrong. You'll need to use a 2 horns patch for the triadic parts for good results.

That makes sense. Now that i look at it, i'm floundering some trying to figure out efficient possibilities - EWQLSO only seems to have the 6 horns patch and then a solo horn patch (didn't see a 2 horn patch). So it would seem that to cover the horns i would need to run the 6 horn patch plus articulations to get a good horn section sound, but then also additionally run 6 solo horn patches each with all the articulations needed in order to break the horns up for divisi parts. I'm looking at 21 total patches right there just to cover only horns with only three articulations ...

Or maybe not worry about phasing effects and just load only one solo horn patch plus articulations and give up the "humanization" of varied note positions to avoid phase cancellation when sending multiple notes to the solo horn simultaneously?

[dalek3]

That makes sense. Now that i look at it, i'm floundering some trying to figure out efficient possibilities - EWQLSO only seems to have the 6 horns patch and then a solo horn patch (didn't see a 2 horn patch). So it would seem that to cover the horns i would need to run the 6 horn patch plus articulations to get a good horn section sound, but then also additionally run 6 solo horn patches each with all the articulations needed in order to break the horns up for divisi parts. I'm looking at 21 total patches right there just to cover only horns with only three articulations ...

Or maybe not worry about phasing effects and just load only one solo horn patch plus articulations and give up the "humanization" of varied note positions to avoid phase cancellation when sending multiple notes to the solo horn simultaneously?

Yes, you'll need a lot of patches loaded. Unfortunately, for brass, IMO there are not many "efficient" possibilities. If your horn section size is 4 horns, you're obviously not composing a big brassy Hollywood piece, and the 4 horns plus solo horns for triads would probably do. With 6 horns, you're probably going Hollywood, and a 2 horn patch is nearly a necessity to get the big sound out of the triads, plus the solo horn for the quieter parts as you will probably only want to use the 2 horn patch for triads at higher dynamic levels.

2 solo horns playing the same note unfortunately at worst introduces bad-sounding phasing effects and at best does not have the power of a 2 horn sample IMO. If you don't have a good 2 horn sample and want to write Hollywood-style brassy stuff, consider upgrading your library or purchasing a good two horns sample.

[navboy]

I've got the EWQLSO Plat Bundle - are there upgrades for this library or if not is there a source for buying a standalone patch to augment EWQLSO with a 2-horn patch?

So far i've avoided even mixing in the VSL instruments that came with Kontakt2 thinking they wouldn't mesh - in practice do people mix and match pieces of orchestras to get what they want?

[dalek3]

You can just about mix any samples together by using the right amount of reverb to make them sound like they are in the same physical space. EWQL samples are more wet than most, so to get other dryer samples to mix you will need to add a fair bit of reverb to those samples.

I checked out the EWQL comparison PDF and it doesn't look like even the high end Platinum has a 2 horns patch, which I find to be a very odd omission. (I don't use EWQL for horns myself so hadn't noticed that). Perhaps Westgate Horns would do the trick with enough Reverb added to mix with the EWQL solo horn and 6 horns patches.

[navboy]

You can just about mix any samples together by using the right amount of reverb to make them sound like they are in the same physical space. EWQL samples are more wet than most, so to get other dryer samples to mix you will need to add a fair bit of reverb to those samples.

I checked out the EWQL comparison PDF and it doesn't look like even the high end Platinum has a 2 horns patch, which I find to be a very odd omission. (I don't use EWQL for horns myself so hadn't noticed that). Perhaps Westgate Horns would do the trick with enough Reverb added to mix with the EWQL solo horn and 6 horns patches.

Gotcha, Thanks. I'm learning orchestration and the ins and outs of new sample libraries and non-Cubase non-Kontakt supplied VSTi's and working on projects all at the same time and these kinds of conversations go a long way to making some sense of it fast - i'm sure it all seems pretty obvious once you've done it for a while but when it's new it always seems there are a billion decisions to make and a billion ways to go at every juncture.

[Sharma]

Sequencing is a world unto itself but in regards to orchestration, the best book has got to be "The Study of Orchestration" by Smauel Adler. Very complete.

[greenpizza13]

On the topic of Orchestration in general, the best way to learn what sounds good, i.e. colors, timbers, and articulations is to listen to as much real orchestra music you can get your hands on. Study the way the composer uses blending of instruments. If you want to get to a point where you are writing for players, I recommend the Kennan Book on Orchestration. It's a great resource.

[SANMAN]

What a great discussion. I've been using QLSO for 3 months and have experienced much frustation (not of the product) but what's been discussed here regarding orchestrating. It's so nice to know one isn't alone with some of these pain points.

[A.Leung]

This:

http://www.truespec.com/ravel-orchestrated-mother-goose-suite-p-917.html

was a good read into translating from piano to orchestra. a GREAT study piece!