PDA

View Full Version : EWQLSO Pro Upgrade Date


Cinemascore
04-04-2005, 10:21 AM
Hello all,

First of all, a big congrats to Doug, Nick and all the EW gang on the successful launch of this new forum!

Just a quick question - are the EWQLSO Pro Upgrades still on track for release on April 30th?

If you could give an update, it would be much appreciated!

IvanP
04-04-2005, 02:08 PM
I posted this in the other Forum, but I guess I'll put it here too...

I personally would not mind waiting a bit more if It could end up in a bigger improvement over the 1st library...

That means using Kompakt 2 for example...

Any clue on this?

Thks,

Iván

Doug Rogers
04-05-2005, 04:08 PM
Hello all,

First of all, a big congrats to Doug, Nick and all the EW gang on the successful launch of this new forum!

Just a quick question - are the EWQLSO Pro Upgrades still on track for release on April 30th?

If you could give an update, it would be much appreciated!

The PRO UPGRADES will be late due to the Choirs taking longer than we expected (surprise, surprise). We will revise the projected release date soon.

- Doug

dcoscina
04-05-2005, 05:02 PM
The PRO UPGRADES will be late due to the Choirs taking longer than we expected (surprise, surprise). We will revise the projected release date soon.

- Doug

I think that's fine for most of us. We'd all rather have a solid great library later than a buggy one sooner. Keep up the great work Doug (and Nick too).

heejaec
04-05-2005, 10:46 PM
Hi, all. I have a question about Gold Pro.
Is it coming a s a full box with new player installer or just add-on with more samples and articulations to already-installed Gold version?
Thanks!

IvanP
04-06-2005, 12:26 AM
The PRO UPGRADES will be late due to the Choirs taking longer than we expected (surprise, surprise). We will revise the projected release date soon.

- Doug


I was sure of it...

So Please, take your time but Make it worth!!


Regards,

Iván

synergy543
04-06-2005, 01:16 AM
Will the Pro Upgrades utilize any of the NI technologies released in Kontakt 2? If not, will there be updates to the QLSO Platinum library to utilize these?

And when will the Hall IRs that were mentioned on NSS be released so that we can intergrate the dry sounds in RA and Collossus with QLSO?

Interestingly, I see that Garritan Real Spaces will contain sample IRs with multi-positions on stage of the Benaroya (anyone know what IR was released with GOS?). I wonder how the QLSO 125 Million Dollar "Secret Hall" IRs will compare and will we be able to use these IRs in other software such as Altiverb? (most important because we need to be able to use the IRs during mixdown).

IvanP
04-06-2005, 03:38 AM
Will the Pro Upgrades utilize any of the NI technologies released in Kontakt 2? If not, will there be updates to the QLSO Platinum library to utilize these?

And when will the Hall IRs that were mentioned on NSS be released so that we can intergrate the dry sounds in RA and Collossus with QLSO?

Interestingly, I see that Garritan Real Spaces will contain sample IRs with multi-positions on stage of the Benaroya (anyone know what IR was released with GOS?). I wonder how the QLSO 125 Million Dollar "Secret Hall" IRs will compare and will we be able to use these IRs in other software such as Altiverb? (most important because we need to be able to use the IRs during mixdown).

Mmm I think Benaroya IS EW's Hall, it's not a secret anymore, is it? I recently saw it in Soundsonline, In the Choirs page I think... (now it's gone though... was it hacked or was it an incident?)

Anyway, the Hall is not all IMO... This library has a lot of great stuff that makes it stand out, so no need to hide the name of the hall anymore... specially when there will be impulses of this hall...

I am personnally not going to stop buying EW stuff for that...

Correct me if I'm wrong

Doug Rogers
04-06-2005, 08:22 AM
Will the Pro Upgrades utilize any of the NI technologies released in Kontakt 2? If not, will there be updates to the QLSO Platinum library to utilize these?

And when will the Hall IRs that were mentioned on NSS be released so that we can intergrate the dry sounds in RA and Collossus with QLSO?

Interestingly, I see that Garritan Real Spaces will contain sample IRs with multi-positions on stage of the Benaroya (anyone know what IR was released with GOS?). I wonder how the QLSO 125 Million Dollar "Secret Hall" IRs will compare and will we be able to use these IRs in other software such as Altiverb? (most important because we need to be able to use the IRs during mixdown).

All of our libraries will import into K2, so you will be able to use many of the new features for custom programming etc. We are not planning any specific updates for K2 at this time.

We will make an announcement about our IR after our current range of development is complete.

Although I haven't heard it, I very much doubt the Real Spaces product will create the sound of our hall as the instrument and section source reflections are missing. It's just convolution reverb with another name. When instruments are recorded in a space, there are multiple reflections that occur that vary with each instrument, and unless that is captured it can't be added later. I will dig up an article Prof. Keith O. Johnson wrote about this if you interested.

At best convolution is a crude method of simulating hall reverb and the results are not as authentic as our Platinum Edition for example, which sounds like you are there.

- Doug

Stefan Podell
04-06-2005, 10:15 AM
At best convolution is a crude method of simulating hall reverb and the results are not as authentic as our Platinum Edition for example, which sounds like you are there.

Because, of course, you basically *ARE* there.... :D

synergy543
04-06-2005, 12:20 PM
All of our libraries will import into K2, so you will be able to use many of the new features for custom programming etc. We are not planning any specific updates for K2 at this time.Great to hear everything will import fine. However, as we are not encouraged to distribute our own programs for QLSO, hopefully in the future you'll consider releasing some K2 programs as an update.

We will make an announcement about our IR after our current range of development is complete.This will be part of the Pro Upgrade and not a separate product right? Or both?

Although I haven't heard it, I very much doubt the Real Spaces product will create the sound of our hall as the instrument and section source reflections are missing. It's just convolution reverb with another name. When instruments are recorded in a space, there are multiple reflections that occur that vary with each instrument, and unless that is captured it can't be added later. I will dig up an article Prof. Keith O. Johnson wrote about this if you interested.
Doug, I would love to read the article by Prof. Keith O. Johnson - please do post it! Also, it might be good to point out that since Reference Recordings is in the process of re-vamping their web site its hard to get info on Prof. Keith O. Johnson who recorded QLSO. However, many of his recordings can be found at www.acousticsounds.com by searching the label type "Reference Recordings". Many of these are recorded by Prof. Keith O. Johnson and make a good study for QLSO users.

One difference between Real Spaces and other convolution reverbs as I understand is that it was sampled from multiple positions on the orchestral stage so theoretically, this would provide a closer simulation to the complexity of reflections that would occur from each instrument group location. However, if it was done with a starter pistol and not a sine sweep, all bets are off as we'd loose the detail in the rich detail in the talis which are so important.

At best convolution is a crude method of simulating hall reverb and the results are not as authentic as our Platinum Edition for example, which sounds like you are there.

- DougYes, I have been searching and can not find a convolution even remotely close to the QLSO Hall. My guess is there is something else "magical" going on that we can't quite put a finger on. To me it seems there is a "resonance" that enriches each sound that I am unable to re-create with convolution. Its like the body of the violin. The QLSO Hall is absolutely beautiful, there is nothing like it.

Gregory D. Moore

Nick Phoenix
04-06-2005, 01:09 PM
Keith and I did indeed sample Benaroya Hall. They are the best impulses I have heard. I used them on my RA "Expedition" demo. The reason they are good is because of Keith's engineering and because we used a special process that captures more early reflections. Also, it IS a great hall. Right now they live in my sony sampled reverb unit. We are thinking about what to do with them. But, honestly, as good as they are, they are very different from the real thing. I'm not sure of all of the reasons, but convolution is very different from multiple mic positions.

Doug Rogers
04-06-2005, 01:50 PM
Doug, I would love to read the article by Prof. Keith O. Johnson - please do post it!

Acoustic environment, samples in fixed acoustic space, and new technology for sampling, reverberation and mixing.

Prof. Keith O. Johnson
July 2003

Great Halls

There is no argument about the complex properties of halls. They provide acoustic support we associate with good orchestral sound and we know many recorded examples crafted from well thought out placements of microphones and musicians in great halls. We can experience the grand stage and spatial illusion of orchestral sound where loudspeakers vanish. Few dispute that instrument directionality and responses from floor, stage and hall play the important but extraordinarily complex roles for this perceived ambience.

Instruments and Halls

Simplicity is not ordinarily in mind when applying these spatial factors to sampling methods. We note that horns, percussion and strings operate on different sound generating principles and have unique directional properties that early on were part of concert hall evolution. Violins project upward and drive stage or string room acoustics. Brass instruments project forward, bounce waves from the floor and drive hard the rear hall. The strike spot for percussion produces a square law or curved wave front, which interacts with nearby surfaces – and so on. Consequences are predictable. A solo violin placed near the rear of a stage may sound loud but impossible to localize yet a trumpet placed there becomes delineated and often better focused than up front. High pressure wave distortion from the trumpet cause this “zing” effect often heard in live concerts. Violins project a much different sound behind performers to work best with overhead acoustic. The direct and stage driven sound from percussion trademarks a hall.

Clearly, something must provide knowledge of how instruments work and how stages and halls respond. One learns from experience that better halls will likely have multiple decay rates and frequency responses. These occur from different places and change character depending on instrument directionality and position. Further complexity is at hand because some of the more important orchestral instruments change directional properties with the notes played and a skilled musician uses this property to project out or merge in when needed. All factors connect to make a carefully tuned hall response and perceived staging dimension, the orchestral experience we expect from a good space. Spread - merged strings, staccato brass - perception of each wave front, strike with body for percussion, and more.

Multiple samples from different points of view are essential to capture enough information to process and create the orchestra and space, move players and change acoustic settings from intimate to ethereal and spread out. Without this three dimensional or multi-view information, or its equivalent in laboriously created lookup tables space creation is difficult if not impossible.

Then and Now and Later

A good acoustic space easily and conveniently conveys grandness, focus, impressionism – power, but these underlying factors won’t occur in close miked or in a small studio space. Then one resorts to artificial flavoring or electronic means and we know dreadful examples. The worst recordings of all time were from bad environments using multi-mono or single point stereo-on-stick methods. Orchestral performances became a clothesline of instruments suspended between speakers. Amongst other acoustic catastrophes were sonic death from anechoic settings and small room claustrophobia. Reverberation added to these things produces the same sounds with reverberation added - a flat orchestra swimming in space. Indeed, many traditional large ensemble samples fare out no better.

Electronic processes can flesh out the orchestra. But processing becomes formidable when less information is available from samples and contamination from small room artifacts is present. As suggested, this approach needs multiple dedicated reverberation processes, each assigned to samples for groups of similar instruments and parts of the whole space. To make this work, send signals created by the sample are re-configured from lookup tables that are made from studying the directional behavior of instruments. When done, all outputs are combined with a modified sample to produce the instrument, stage and hall sound. If samples are hall like and free of fast reflections and mutual coupling, a system like this would be very nice to have. One laments that fast processors with at least 48 bit arithmetic have many DSP parts to achieve sampling or algorithm-based reverberation with realistic performance. They go for upward of $10,000 while those of less capabability have artifacts and won’t produce a real space. Also, combined processing power, particularly for polyvoice work would be well beyond 32-bit PC capability.

Creating and Playing Samples

Fortunately, stereo on a stick can be discarded and its small sound fixed by going to a large space and having more pickup points to create samples. Now without fast first bounce interference, we can move back to avoid proximity or pressure gradient coloration to the instrument and we can record multisamples that don’t enforce or propagate small room acoustics when they are combined. A performer can move forward for a more direct sound or back for more stage support. If the setup is good, a similar near – far – effect occurs when process controls square up arrival times, introduce proximity EQ and manipulate gain relationships. We adjust simple controls and don’t move the performer. Much processing power is saved, the system is easy and natural to use and the hall support sound good. We can interact with instruments and not just play a recording. This is not a fixed space system.

East West/Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra.

The 3D sample approach is expanded to include multi - channel capability and dimension controls for each instrument. Controls link to default setups allowing the user to operate the system much like an orchestral session with solo, accent, EQ and echo adjustments. These controls or processes can track and play instruments to new places in the stage setup.

Three sample sets are used, each taken from its own independent system of microphones, mix console and recording. They function as direct, stage and ambient information and each has two channels. The recording stage is large; its upper reflection surface is distant with a rear wall constructed with pipe organ. Flutter and standing waves are quite small – from stage design and the organ pipes. The main hall has both live and bounce areas, typical of better dual time constant spaces. A proscenium area above the front stage retains and disperses some up-firing energy from violins.

Since the direct sample is free of immediate small room noise and multi - mike blur, it sounds very close and transparent even though the hall reverb tail can be heard. Other than intentional floor bounce reflection, the normally troublesome standing wave buildup is almost non-existent.

Hall reverb tail can be stripped off so the direct sample becomes much more anechoic like than samples made in small spaces. Most likely a high resolution upgrade to 88.2 kHz 24 bit would provide a pre-stripped sample to run advanced digital space systems when and if they become available.

The stage sample has overhead or back energy pickup for strings and overall stage response mixed together. Direct path and multi-reflection microphones are used and their time delays, EQ and energy balances have been preset to support a most likely placement for the instrument. However, the overall time and EQ functions can change when the instrument is moved.

The surround sample combines long tail hall responses with stage energy. Microphones are not shared with other samples but are placed in pairs to preserve stereo sense for ITU speaker setups. Overall balances and time transitions have been chosen to merge front – back energy eliminating an isolated surround effect. Though intended for surround work, this sample doubles up for reverberation.

It can be seen from this discussion that the direct, stage and surround samples combine differently for each instrument. Time, EQ, phase and balance values for each of these create placements, solos, off stage effects and settings ranging from intimacy to very broad impressionistic soundscapes. Defaults include motion picture or classical setups, string and brass ensembles, dominant or accent percussion, a wide sweep of horns, a reed player delicately focused at mid-stage. Controls work much like an orchestral mixing session with solo, accent, reverb sends and traditional polyvoice mixes. Pan – solo – loudness link in time and phase to create real stage placements. As can be surmised, the system is very easy to use and flexible to make different settings.

Prof. Keith O. Johnson

Doug Rogers
04-06-2005, 01:52 PM
About Keith -

"Prof." Keith O. Johnson, is a true audio legend, having designed and patented many innovative products in the professional and consumer fields. The RR Sound comes from his singular methods and equipment, hand-built or extensively modified by him. Microphone techniques range from single-point Blumlein to spaced omnis to complex studio mixes, depending on the musical forces and the performing space involved. Our goal is to recreate the sound of real musicians making music in real space.

"Prof." Keith Johnson has spent over 30 years developing a reputation for innovative thinking, technical achievement and musicianship which has elevated him to a position in the audio industry occupied by only a handful of visionaries. His intensive investigation of electronic behavior and acoustic perception have led most recently to his development (with digital engineer Michael Pflaumer) of the revolutionary High Definition Compatible Digital encoding process, produced and marketed by Pacific Microsonics (recently acquired by Microsoft). HDCD is widely considered to be the most accurate recording process ever invented.

His 90-plus recordings for the label have long been considered the standard for high fidelity, and include two GRAMMY award-winners and eight additional GRAMMY nominations.

synergy543
04-06-2005, 05:31 PM
Keith and I did indeed sample Benaroya Hall. They are the best impulses I have heard. I used them on my RA "Expedition" demo. The reason they are good is because of Keith's engineering and because we used a special process that captures more early reflections. Also, it IS a great hall. Right now they live in my sony sampled reverb unit. We are thinking about what to do with them. But, honestly, as good as they are, they are very different from the real thing. I'm not sure of all of the reasons, but convolution is very different from multiple mic positions.I'm listening now on a good sounds system and yes, the reverb is stunning! However, as you say there is something different from Platinum. What I hear is that instruments just jump out in front even though the hall has such a beautiful lush sound. Maybe its possible to give the instruments some depth with filtering and some Early Reflection programs? High frequency sounds tend to drop off fairly rapidly with distance as they are filtered by the air.

Also as I mentioned, I hear some kind of "resonance" or richness in Platinum that I cannot get from convolutions. Maybe these are strong Early Reflections or even possibly the various reflections emanatiing from the resonances of the the instrument itself? (Much in the same way, that Genelecs is attempting to eliminate resonance from their 8000 series speakers by rounding all corners?)

Still, the Benaroya Hall IR sounds really great. I can't wait to try it out.

And Doug, thank you for posting the Papers from Prof. Keith O. Johnson!

Gregory D. Moore

neoTypic
04-08-2005, 09:11 AM
Anyone have a link to the information on the PRO updates? I searched NSS and am unable to find the sticky I coulda sworn was once there. Thanks. :)

Doug Rogers
04-10-2005, 08:30 AM
Anyone have a link to the information on the PRO updates? I searched NSS and am unable to find the sticky I coulda sworn was once there. Thanks. :)

Information about Silver Pro is here -
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-161PRO

Information about Gold Pro is here -
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-160PRO

Information about Platinum Pro is here -
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155PRO

- Doug

guy theaker
04-10-2005, 08:56 AM
I've just tried these links, and they don't appear to work. Is it just me?

Stefan Podell
04-10-2005, 09:04 AM
Yeah, they got abbreviated by the forum software somehow:

Try these:

Silver:
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-161PRO

Gold:
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-160PRO

Platinum:
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155PRO

Cinemascore
04-10-2005, 09:08 AM
Information about Silver Pro is here -
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml...l?sku=EW-161PRO

Information about Gold Pro is here -
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml...l?sku=EW-160PRO

Information about Platinum Pro is here -
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml...l?sku=EW-155PRO

- Doug

Here are the correct links. Doug's links were truncated for some reason.

Information about Silver Pro is here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-161PRO

Information about Gold Pro is here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-160PRO

Information about Platinum Pro is here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155PRO

Also to note: the release dates have now been pushed back to 5/31/05. :(