LOTR mock-up - who wants it?

[Jeff Hayat]

Here (http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LOTRmock.cpr) is a .cpr for those with Cubase, and those with something else, here (http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LOTRmock.mid) is a .mid file. And here (http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LOTR_MockUp.mp3) is an mp3, which is C mics only for the orch, but all 3 for the choir.

It's the very beginning of Fellowship up to and including the ring theme. This is available only on the extended CD soundtrack. Kinda interesting as to the orchestration, and how things are layered. Especially some of the dissonant stuff - like the Celli and Basses forming a 5-note chord, and part of the chord is C & C#. I always wondered what that "rumbling" thing was in the low end at the beginning - that's it. I did this as an exercise for myself, but then I figured why not share? This is taken from the actual full orchestral written score (no you can not have a copy) so I know it's 100% correct (unless, of course, I goofed somewhere...LOL). The violin & viola eighth notes in the ring theme don't match up timing-wise to the score exactly...ie, with the MIDI notes in their proper place according to the written score, the timing is a bit off from the recording. I wonder if it's just a human factor, and that's what happens when humans play something of that nature, or if Howard told the violins and violas to make it loose.

Something of interest I found:

Bar 11, which starts the second time the ring theme is played: the Celli and Basses lost the C. Why?

I:

Didn't do slurs - I simply made two seperate notes in the couple of places slurs actually occur.

Didn't leave room for breath for the woods and horns.

Mixed everything volume-wise based on my setup; your setup might require different relative volume settings.

Didn't worry about single instruments. ie - the bassoons, of which there are 2. Bar 9 plays C/E div., and bar 10 plays E. The "proper" way to do this is, in bar 9, have a solo bassoon play C, another solo bassoon play E, and then have the bassoon "section" play E in bar 10. I didn't take things like that that far.

Didn't do any CC stuff, tho I did add some automation. There is alot of crescendo and dimuendo notated in the score, but again, didn't go crazy here. The automation might or might not show up in the .mid file?

Didn't pay much attention to velocity layers, however I did reduce the velocity of div. notes, as compared to single notes. ie - bar 9 Horns 3-5: Horns 4 & 5 play G#/F, and in bar 10 they both play G. So, I reduced the velocity of bar 9 to match bar 10 volume-wise, as there are two horns in bar 9 playing one note each, and there are two horns in bar 10 playing the same note. Two notes and two notes. But in the muck-up, if I left bar 9's vel. equal to bar 10's, bar 9 would play louder than bar 10. But it wouldn't be louder in reality; the same amount of horns (2) are playing simul in both bars (bar 9 is div.).

Think that's about it....

If you have any Q's, please feel free to ask.

Enjoy!

[action9000]

The automation might or might not show up in the .mid file?

Unfortunately it doesn't. :(

I love this track. I tried working with the MIDI file but due to the lack of automation it sounds much weaker than your very nice mp3 mockup. Great work, by the way. :)

The main things I noticed that sounded "fake" in this mp3 were the violin leads and the tempo, namely the lack of expression in the tempo starting at the violin lead. I also find the lead violin part doesn't flow quite as nicely as the original. Perhaps a QLeg and Exp patches could do good things here, with effective layering.

That being said, this mockup is fantastic. Thank you for sharing! :)

[iLoked]

Very impressive. Where didi you get the score? I love that Shore´s score!

[audiochild]

I really doubt that this is the original score.
Its long time ago that I heard this track but the way the voices are arranged is very amateurish. didn't Shore study music at uni? the first thing you learn is to avoid parallel fifths (especially in this kind of romantic music). or there was a poor orchestrator in his team who did the job for him.

I must listen to the original again to check.

[Jeff Hayat]

I really doubt that this is the original score.

It is - I am not lying.

...the way the voices are arranged is very amateurish. didn't Shore study music at uni? the first thing you learn is to avoid parallel fifths...

Wow - you are way off here. For the choirs, there are no parallel 5ths on the score page, and there are none in the mock-up I did. Not sure what you are hearing.

Cheers.

[nickysnd]

This cue (and generally the LOTR score) is full of parallel fifths, but I guess it's intentional, part of the medieval flavor. I'm not a very big fan of epic grandiose films with overblown scores, but I like the orchestration job on LOTR, I think it's quite unique.

Thanks for sharing, BTW.

:)

[Sharma]

Very nice. I'm a big fan of setting myself exercises in that way. Would be improuved by you speding more tme on what should be the slures. Also the cressendos sound a bit fake. Prehaps there are some Mod Cross fades that would achive that better. Maybe also a bit more time spent on the tempo track.

ONly trying to presend ideas. I think its very good and I know how hard it is to make these things really realistic. Is that the Gold Library? I have gold and I'm soon to have Symphonic choirs. Look forward to spending some time with it as I'm very busy with my degree at the moment. Maybe I'll post some stuff up here when its done and get some feed back. :P Keep it up.

Sharma

[Sharma]

* present. My spelling is terrible in that! Sorry.

[Jeff Hayat]

Sharma > it is Plat with the C mics only, and some added reverb.

I appreciate your ideas, but...

"Would be improuved by you speding more tme on what should be the slures. Also the cressendos sound a bit fake. Prehaps there are some Mod Cross fades that would achive that better."

No. If I were to do that, then the MIDI file would not be accurate to the score. And that was the point - not to get the mock-up to sound realistic, but to enter the notes and orchestration with 100% accuracy.

As for the tempo track, it is 100% dead accurate to the score. The MIDI mock-up doesn't match to the cd exactly, meaning one of a few things:

A last minute adjustment was made due to a picture change; Howard is standing in front of the orchestra, baton in hand, ready to beat '1', and Peter coms running in, "wait - wait!!! I have cut out three frames from the 15th shot -now the movie is so much better!!! Yay!!!" And Howard says to the orchestra, "we will change the tempo of measures 4-8 from 42 bpm to 43 bpm." (and then rolls his eyes)

Or, the metronome was stuck on a certain # and couldn't be changed because the mr.fix it guy called in sick.

Or, who knows what happened.

Cheers.

[Bondtana]

Nice... I like. I wish I knew enough about orchestration to complain.

Post more if you do them please...

[audiochild]

It is - I am not lying.

I didn't say you were lying



Wow - you are way off here. For the choirs, there are no parallel 5ths on the score page, and there are none in the mock-up I did. Not sure what you are hearing.



I don't think I'm way off here.
I was talking about the violas, celli, clarinets, bassoon and the horns.
the parallel fifths make the whole thing sound very shallow, that's why.

well, as Nickysnd said, probably Shore wanted to have the parallels in order to achieve a medieval flair, on the other hand, in that time the doubling of a voice with a fifth was mostly used for main voices and not for accompagnying chord structures (referring to this score -as I said, I'm not aware of the whole LOTR score at the moment.), so it wouldn't really help to achieve that "style" or to imitate it. also, you'll rarely find music from that time in this kind of mood.

Cheers.

[Bondtana]

Lord Of The Rings was a fictional story, no? Why not use uncommon techniques, if you are creating music for an imaginary world?

[nickysnd]

well, as Nickysnd said, probably Shore wanted to have the parallels in order to achieve a medieval flair, on the other hand, in that time the doubling of a voice with a fifth was mostly used for main voices and not for accompagnying chord structures (referring to this score -as I said, I'm not aware of the whole LOTR score at the moment.), so it wouldn't really help to achieve that "style" or to imitate it. also, you'll rarely find music from that time in this kind of mood.
I understand your point, but I don't see why a film composer like Shore should want to be so strylistacally accurate. He was given a film and was told: "match it with your music!" So, I don't think Shore wanted to "imitate" a style, but rather to invent the style of the middle-earth. ;) And I think he has achieved it.

The parallel fifths were part of medieval music, and the LOTR story is a medieval-flavored fantasy -- so this compositional decision is justified. Of course, there was no chordal accompaniment in the medieval music, but only lines going together, often in parallel intervals of fourths and fifths. That's one stylistic element Shore used. Further, he decided to mix it with a second stylistic element: thick "Wagnerian" orchestration (The Ring of the Nibelung, an inevitable decision). Of course it doesn't sound like Wagner, partly because of the intentional neglecting of "common practice period" harmony (which banned parallel fifths, etc.). A third stylistic element that Shore used would be the modal relationships between chords, the modal harmony.

So, again, Shore didn't want to imitate a style, IMO, but rather to invent a style (let's call it "the middle-earth style":)) -- to obtain "gold" by melting and marrying different "metals", like a medieval alchemist. I believe he has succeeded in achieving an unique and memorable musical style that goes well with the visuals and the moods of the movie, also with the stories there. I am not in total awe about this score, but I give credit to Shore for doing a great job matching the film with his score. And I mean great job on every side, from the invention of themes to underscoring, orchestration, etc. The LOTR score surely is a milestone in film history, like (say) Star Wars and Matrix -- it's enough to hear 4-5 seconds from any of them and you know the world you're in.

$0.02

EDIT: Bondtana, in so many words, what you said. ;)

[audiochild]

I understand your point, but I don't see why a film composer like Shore should want to be so strylistacally accurate. He was given a film and was told: "match it with your music!" So, I don't think Shore wanted to "imitate" a style, but rather to invent the style of the middle-earth. ;) And I think he has achieved it.

The parallel fifths were part of medieval music, and the LOTR story is a medieval-flavored fantasy -- so this compositional decision is justified. Of course, there was no chordal accompaniment in the medieval music, but only lines going together, often in parallel intervals of fourths and fifths. That's one stylistic element Shore used. Further, he decided to mix it with a second stylistic element: thick "Wagnerian" orchestration (The Ring of the Nibelung, an inevitable decision). Of course it doesn't sound like Wagner, partly because of the intentional neglecting of "common practice period" harmony (which banned parallel fifths, etc.). A third stylistic element that Shore used would be the modal relationships between chords, the modal harmony.

So, again, Shore didn't want to imitate a style, IMO, but rather to invent a style (let's call it "the middle-earth style":)) -- to obtain "gold" by melting and marrying different "metals", like a medieval alchemist. I believe he has succeeded in achieving an unique and memorable musical style that goes well with the visuals and the moods of the movie, also with the stories there. I am not in total awe about this score, but I give credit to Shore for doing a great job matching the film with his score. And I mean great job on every side, from the invention of themes to underscoring, orchestration, etc. The LOTR score surely is a milestone in film history, like (say) Star Wars and Matrix -- it's enough to hear 4-5 seconds from any of them and you know the world you're in.

$0.02

EDIT: Bondtana, in so many words, what you said. ;)

I think I can agree pretty much on this. though I think that the "musical style" of LOTR is not that unique. It's been long time since I've listened to it so I can't start a discussion now, haha but yes, I do remember that when I saw the movies I found the music matching the visuals very well.
still Shore's comment that he studied the "leitmotivik" of Rheingold to work similar in his score made me ROFL a bit. I think Wagner used it a bit more subtle and elegant.
Shore's themes are pretty much in your face all the time even in their variations if I remember correctly.

[Sharma]

Oh I see. I didn't realise that the primary purpose was to write out the score. Well, now you have a score you can save that and go back and improuve the realisation. Lol, your call.
>Bondtana. If you really want to know about orchestration get the Samuel Adler book 'the study of orchestration'. It is extreamly good and there is a set of CDs that go with it although they are a bit pricy.

[V o n h ö g e n]

Dan Reynolds posted another LOTR mockup here about a year ago. I thought it wouldn't harm this thread if I'd post a link to Dan's post, so here you are: "Rendering LotR music with Gold XP (http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=6333)


I really doubt that this is the original score.
Its long time ago that I heard this track but the way the voices are arranged is very amateurish. didn't Shore study music at uni? the first thing you learn is to avoid parallel fifths (especially in this kind of romantic music). or there was a poor orchestrator in his team who did the job for him.

Since we don't know for sure if this wasn't some kind of concert arrangement done by someone else (like John Whitney), it wouldn't be fair to blame Howard Shore for any possible flaw in this score.

Maybe Dan could check his copy of the score?

- Jerome Vonhögen

[Jeff Hayat]

I didn't say you were lying

I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that you were saying I was lying...sorry if it came across that way. :)

Your comment of, "the way the voices are arranged is very amateurish. didn't Shore study music at uni? the first thing you learn is to avoid parallel fifths" made it sound like you were referring directly to the choir in relation to the 5ths. It didn't seem like you were talking about the whole thing. That's why I said, "For the choirs, there are no parallel 5ths"



Since we don't know for sure if this wasn't some kind of concert arrangement done by someone else (like John Whitney)...


Are you referring to me, or Dan?

[V o n h ö g e n]

Are you referring to me, or Dan?

I was under the impression that you had used a conductor score like Dan did. So, I was referring to the arranger of the printed score. I find the word "score" rather confusing, since it's often used to indicate just the musical part of a movie. (By the way, "soundtrack" has become a vague and confusing word as well. That's why the IMDB now prefers the words "Music by".)

- Jerome Vonhögen

[Jeff Hayat]

I was under the impression that you had used a conductor score like Dan did. So, I was referring to the arranger of the printed score. I find the word "score" rather confusing, since it's often used to indicate just the musical part of a movie. (By the way, "soundtrack" has become a vague and confusing word as well. That's why the IMDB now prefers the words "Music by".)

- Jerome Vonhögen

This is the original LOTR score. It is not an after market something or other arranged by so-and-so. This is a copy of the actual score that was used in the recording sessions - the sessions that produced the music that made it into the film.

Cheers.

[Pochflyboy]

where can I order the original score?

[nickysnd]

+1

:)

[Jeff Hayat]

where can I order the original score?

You can't. :p

[Bondtana]

>Bondtana. If you really want to know about orchestration get the Samuel Adler book 'the study of orchestration'. It is extreamly good and there is a set of CDs that go with it although they are a bit pricy.

Thank you sir. Just placed an order with barnes and nobles. I had a nice 15% extra off 1 item coupon too...

[jeb247]

RiffWraith - If you can't order an original score, how did you get your copy?

[Jeff Hayat]

RiffWraith - If you can't order an original score, how did you get your copy?

From someone who worked on the film.

[Pochflyboy]

Ya something sounds a little like copyright infringement here. If you got it legally then why won't you tell everyone else?

[Pochflyboy]

O I see.... Connections... Always good to have!!!

[joenovice]

I've often looked for film scores (notation) at stores and NEVER find any! Why not release these? Extra profit for composers/studios, great music, available market willing to pay..... WTF.

[nickysnd]

I've often looked for film scores (notation) at stores and NEVER find any! Why not release these?
That is a very good question, especially when you think that they have found it appropriate to release the LOTR full score in a DIFFERENT orchestration (http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=5447775&cart=34143065543868011&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title)? What's the purpose of that? Why is Victor Lopez's orchestration better than the original orchestration?? The score was already there, already done, so why re-doing it differently? Why would one want to buy and study the RE-ORCHESTRATED Wagner's scores???

[Sharma]

that is weird and I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day. There are some bits of score in the book 'on the track' but I don't see why they couldn't genrally just release them for public enjoyment. Maybe its like some kind of seacrecy thing. don't wan't people to know how they did it. maybe I could make money transcribing them or somthing. lol. Except I would get suewed and I'm shit at transcribing stuff.

[audiochild]

I think it would be very embarassing for many of them.

[A.Leung]

where can I order the original score?

http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist/artist_items.hperl?Artist=Shore%2C+Howard

or

http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist/artist_item_detail.hperl?Artist=Shore%2C+Howard&Invnum=FOM02002

(very good string adaptation)

[nickysnd]

I think it would be very embarassing for many of them.
Embarrassing, in front of whom? Who is the authority out there capable to set standards and then to point fingers? Is there any other criteria, for analyzing a film score, except: how well does it match the film? What embarrassment? I don't see any reason for embarrassment in delivering a good score for the movie and then publishing it as it is. Composers and orchestrators alike should take pride in their achievements.

http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist/artist_items.hperl?Artist=Shore%2C+Howard

or

http://www.stagepass.com/groupartist/artist_item_detail.hperl?Artist=Shore%2C+Howard&Invnum=FOM02002

(very good string adaptation)
adaptations, schmadaptations. Anything but the real thing is worse than useless.

Again, why don't they publish the scores used at the recording sessions? Why do they bother to mutilate them first and then present them, to the public, disfigured?

[mirrored]

Embarrassing, in front of whom? Who is the authority out there capable to set standards and then to point fingers? Is there any other criteria, for analyzing a film score, except: how well does it match the film? What embarrassment? I don't see any reason for embarrassment in delivering a good score for the movie and then publishing it as it is. Composers and orchestrators alike should take pride in their achievements.

Maybe it is something like they do not want/can't (but for what reason?) to share their knowledge. Maybe they are afraid of some genius getting as good (and successsful) as they are with just only analysing their scores?
Nah... ;)

[A.Leung]

Maybe it is something like they do not want/can't (but for what reason?) to share their knowledge. Maybe they are afraid of some genius getting as good (and successsful) as they are with just only analysing their scores?
Nah... ;)

Its not up to them. I doubt that that is a valid 'fear' of theirs. THe music is owned by the respective studios.

[cellius]

Just dropping in here to add my input. In my experience, most film composers would love to have their scores published, but it is out of their control. The studios own every aspect of the music. I once asked Shore personally if I could have a copy of the score, and he flat out told me he has no say in the matter.

And I gotta laugh at the guy who said the score wasn't legit because of the use of "parallel 5ths." Gimme a break, what are we, still in the 1800s? Do you have any idea whatsoever how often the conventions of traditional Western harmony are shattered in present music? Oh, he must not have paid attention in school because that voice leading is forbidden!

[nickysnd]

Its not up to them. I doubt that that is a valid 'fear' of theirs. THe music is owned by the respective studios.
I find that completely baffling: Why should the studios want to spend more money by paying another orchestrator to change the original score, and then to publish it disfigured? Why not save money and publish the original score? They release the original soundtrack on CDs, right? So why not applying the same principle also with the score?

[nikolas]

And I gotta laugh at the guy who said the score wasn't legit because of the use of "parallel 5ths." Gimme a break, what are we, still in the 1800s? Do you have any idea whatsoever how often the conventions of traditional Western harmony are shattered in present music? Oh, he must not have paid attention in school because that voice leading is forbidden!
You gotta laugh????!?!?

HOHOHO to you and your post as well then. :D:D:D

It's the style that's clashing with the parallel 5ths, at least this is what Jan means. LOTR soundtrack is not contemporary in any way, and could have been writen 200 years ago (almost). Just because it was written in 2000+ does not mean much really.

[nickysnd]

No, the LOTR score couldn't be written before Debussy. The harmony is modal.

EDIT: lots of parallel 5ths in Debussy, BTW... :)

[audiochild]

@cellius: you don't seem to know much about music eh? otherwise you could clearly conclude that harmonically the LOTR score doesn't have much in common with the so called "contemporary" music you are referring to.
now you come and tell me about the parallel fifths in ya favourite Metallica tune...
I didn't say that the score wasn't "legit". please don't lay words into my mouth.
and please stop wasting my time. :)

@Nickysnd: Modal harmony bases on the "church scales" (I don't know the correct term in English... "lydian, aeolian etc") which had been in use already before our major/minor system. there's been modality before Messiaen.
major originally was ionian and minor aeolian. I'm pretty sure you know that thus wondering about your comment.
the big difference in Debussy was that he wanted to try new things and made parallel fifths the main concept in some of his pieces.
in LOTR the parallel fifths in the accompagnying voices really don't seem to be part of the concept... they have the flair of sloppy "keyboard" composing.

to come back to the other question, I think its not very interesting for -let's say- the owners of the copyrights to publish these scores as there are too less people interested in buying these.

and I'm sorry if this thread turned into an argument as Riffwraith's good intention was to share the score.

[nickysnd]

@Nickysnd: Modal harmony bases on the "church scales" (I don't know the correct term in English... "lydian, aeolian etc") which had been in use already before our major/minor system. there's been modality before Messiaen.
major originally was ionian and minor aeolian. I'm pretty sure you know that thus wondering about your comment.
the big difference in Debussy was that he wanted to try new things and made parallel fifths the main concept in some of his pieces.
in LOTR the parallel fifths in the accompagnying voices really don't seem to be part of the concept... they have the flair of sloppy "keyboard" composing.
...
and I'm sorry if this thread turned into an argument as Riffwraith's good intention was to share the score.
You mean, his good intention to share this keyboard composed sloppy score? :p

About modality: I said that LOTR couldn't have been composed before Debussy, because Debussy is the one who made the shift from the tonal harmony to the modern modal harmony. Modal doesn't mean only Western medieval music. Debussy has expanded modality by using far-east modes (pentatonic), quartal harmonies (!), whole tone harmony, etc. Also, his innovations include unprepapared modulations, and poly-tonality. So, LOTR doesn't use the tonal chromaticized harmony of the Romanticism, as Nikolas seemed to suggest. LOTR is definitely a modern (i.e post-Debussy) score. But the only important thing is that it works great with the film.

to come back to the other question, I think its not very interesting for -let's say- the owners of the copyrights to publish these scores as there are too less people interested in buying these.
No, you didn't understand: the problem is that they DO publish them, but mutilated. My question was: Why do they take the trouble (and spend the money) to modify the scores before publishing them? Why don't they publish the scores in the exact shape that they were played at the recording session?

[Jeff Hayat]

You mean, his good intention to share this keyboard composed sloppy score? :p


:eek:

[Sam Ples]

adaptations, schmadaptations. Anything but the real thing is worse than useless.

Again, why don't they publish the scores used at the recording sessions? Why do they bother to mutilate them first and then present them, to the public, disfigured?[/QUOTE]

These adaptations are created for the educational music market and are reworked primarily for reasons of playability by young players. They also tend to focus on the recognizable themes and less on the dramatic scoring sections of a score. These pieces are also edited and engraved to be as close to bulletproof as can be. Manuscript scores are usually very large, 12" X 19" or larger and difficult to duplicate, even harder to read if they are reduced even to 11" X 17". Then there is understanding the shorthand of an orchestrator on a tight deadline. (I'm a copyist, trust me on this one.) Some folks have better handwriting than others. With a lot of scores being done completely on Finale or Sibelius, they probably look better than they have in the past, but the educational market would still have problems trying to use those materials. Instrumentation would be one of them, not many school orchestras have 6 or 8 F horns who could cut these parts. The John Williams Signature Series is the closest you can get on the for sale market, but that is also limited to the highlights of the score.

The copyright owners (studios and their publishers) control what is done with the music as major scores tend to be works for hire. The larger issue is compensation for the composer, orchestrators and copyists that worked on the film versions. They might see this as a reuse and expect to be paid again for their work. There are no union rates for the educational industry, and publishers tend not to pay anything close to scale let alone overtime. Some things are available in the orchestra rental world. There is an LOTR package available from European American Music that I assume is taken from the original because Shore was conducting some concerts.

Someone also has to track changes that may have been made to cues to make sure any stand changes or corrections are transfered back to the score and the originals are corrected or altered. I've seen the original score for Hot Chocolate from Polar Express and it is missing the "Jingle Bells" quote ending that is on the CD. That s a separate cue that someone has to be aware of if it ever went out.

All the man hours for this stuff goes into the creation of it. Once it is recorded, no one wants to put a lot of money into cleaning it up, unless there is a concert or some other use for it. Most studios and publishers don't see it as a profitable thing to edit and print such a large amount of music, especially when they are making big bucks deals with fast food chains. It just too small a market.

When I started writing I was a big band musician and there are a lot more record rips and things published that are the real deal so I understand the frustration in the search for knowledge. I've been lucky enough in my career that I have seen a lot of things including William's sketches for Star Wars (Part IV). I'd recommend transcribing something, maybe just a few bars that really grab you. Try to break it down on paper, or computer. It can really make you focus on the details of what makes it work. In the end, its the same notes and chords we all use every day.

[V o n h ö g e n]

(...) the problem is that they DO publish them, but mutilated. (...) Why don't they publish the scores in the exact shape that they were played at the recording session?

Most people won't hear the difference and those who do, probably don't need a score. :rolleyes:

- Jerome Vonhögen

[V o n h ö g e n]

(...)the educational market would still have problems trying to use those materials. Instrumentation would be one of them, not many school orchestras have 6 or 8 F horns who could cut these parts. (...)

The copyright owners (studios and their publishers) control what is done with the music as major scores tend to be works for hire. The larger issue is compensation for the composer, orchestrators and copyists that worked on the film versions. They might see this as a reuse and expect to be paid again for their work. There are no union rates for the educational industry, and publishers tend not to pay anything close to scale let alone overtime. Some things are available in the orchestra rental world. (...)

Someone also has to track changes that may have been made to cues to make sure any stand changes or corrections are transfered back to the score and the originals are corrected or altered. (...)

All the man hours for this stuff goes into the creation of it. Once it is recorded, no one wants to put a lot of money into cleaning it up, unless there is a concert or some other use for it. Most studios and publishers don't see it as a profitable thing to edit and print such a large amount of music, (...) It just too small a market. (...)

Sounds like the matter is solved now. Thanks for your insight, Sam.

- Jerome Vonhögen

[cellius]

@cellius: you don't seem to know much about music eh? otherwise you could clearly conclude that harmonically the LOTR score doesn't have much in common with the so called "contemporary" music you are referring to.
now you come and tell me about the parallel fifths in ya favourite Metallica tune...

Quite understandably I feel no compunction to prove anything to some anonymous elitist prick on a forum who doesn't seem to grasp that at such a professional level, no compositional decisions are random or the product of - what was it? - sloppy keyboard composing? Very nice. I'm sorry I can't quite agree with your amusingly condescending implication that Shore doesn't know what he is doing. The man is a first-rate composer - and knows it - and probably would get as large a chuckle out of your opinion as I do. Nice jab with the Metallica comment, though; I appreciate that, and it reveals more than you realize.

Feel free to reply if your insane ego deems it necessary; I will not see it.

[V o n h ö g e n]

Quite understandably I feel no compunction to prove anything to some anonymous elitist prick on a forum who doesn't seem to grasp that at such a professional level, no compositional decisions are random or the product of - what was it? - sloppy keyboard composing? Very nice. I'm sorry I can't quite agree with your amusingly condescending implication that Shore doesn't know what he is doing. The man is a first-rate composer - and knows it - and probably would get as large a chuckle out of your opinion as I do. Nice jab with the Metallica comment, though; I appreciate that, and it reveals more than you realize.

Feel free to reply if your insane ego deems it necessary; I will not see it.


Girls, please! This thread was started by Jeffrey to get some feedback for his LOTR mockup. Let's not hijack the thread by starting a fight nobody wants to be involved in. There are plenty LOTR conventions where you can dress up as a hobbit and fight all kinds of monsters, including other visitors. I suggest you go there, if you can't settle your dispute in another way. ;)

Si vis pacem, para bellum!

- Jerome Vonhögen

[nikolas]

Quite understandably I feel no compunction to prove anything to some anonymous elitist prick on a forum who doesn't seem to grasp that at such a professional level, no compositional decisions are random or the product of - what was it? - sloppy keyboard composing? Very nice. I'm sorry I can't quite agree with your amusingly condescending implication that Shore doesn't know what he is doing. The man is a first-rate composer - and knows it - and probably would get as large a chuckle out of your opinion as I do. Nice jab with the Metallica comment, though; I appreciate that, and it reveals more than you realize.

Feel free to reply if your insane ego deems it necessary; I will not see it.
You know what? These are quite rude comments, to someone that YOU first addressed. Personal attacks for someone you don't know, etc.

Calm down I say. You have every right to dissagree with audiochild, but no reason to reduce to such awful manners.

then again your posts might only prove something about you and your personality. Who knows really. I sure can't judge you from 2 posts and only refer to those 2 posts.

As for Jeffrey, the poor guy just gave the whole community (not only in SOL forums) the original score in a midi form, the Cubase project file and all his notes and hard work he did. Instead of saying thank you, you are pissing on his thread? A pity... :(

What Jerome said pretty much but got there first... :P

EDIT: Nicky, actually the 200+ years was faulty, cause I meant less than 200 actually... Yes it is modal pretty much, but still nowhere near contemporary music, and the orchestration is largely Romantic style, which still holds grudges against parallel 5ths, 8ves etc... It does make sense for someone to strive to not have parallel 5ths at such a style, and I do think that there isn't even the slightest of Debussy or Ravel in the soundtrack. (take the word "sligthest" with a grain of salt of course. I mean the score was writen "today" so chances are that there are many things that could feel a bit out of place). That's all :)

[audiochild]

Quite understandably I feel no compunction to prove anything to some anonymous elitist prick on a forum who doesn't seem to grasp that at such a professional level, no compositional decisions are random or the product of - what was it? - sloppy keyboard composing? Very nice. I'm sorry I can't quite agree with your amusingly condescending implication that Shore doesn't know what he is doing. The man is a first-rate composer - and knows it - and probably would get as large a chuckle out of your opinion as I do. Nice jab with the Metallica comment, though; I appreciate that, and it reveals more than you realize.


didn't you say you had to laugh at me in first place?
don't you call me "anonymous elitist prick" in this post?
now this reveals more than you realize.
apart from that you should have a look at the forum rules and express yourself a bit more appropriate.

and if you would have read my posts carefully you would have realized that I questioned the authenticity because of these possible compositional "flaws"
I never said that Shore doesn't know what he's doing. hmm you see your mistake now?
before having a go at someone on a forum you should read properly.
it would be more interesting if you would contradict me by contributing something useful to the theme of the discussion.

oh and by the way you can't really judge compositional abilities by the money involved, the only reason you would do this is because you don't have other clues.
thinking: "the bigger the money, the better the quality" is an erroneus belief.

Feel free to reply if your insane ego deems it necessary; I will not see it.

:rolleyes:

pure comedy.
this gives the impression of a little girl shutting her eyes tight and pushing her hands on her ears when mommy tells her to tidy up her room.
of course you'll come here lurking to see the replies.

[Sharma]

And I gotta laugh at the guy who said the score wasn't legit because of the use of "parallel 5ths." Gimme a break, what are we, still in the 1800s? Do you have any idea whatsoever how often the conventions of traditional Western harmony are shattered in present music? Oh, he must not have paid attention in school because that voice leading is forbidden!

lol, it is a debatble matter and theres certanly elements of the score that are complemented by the uses of lushous sophisticated voice leading which would benifit from not having weak sounding fifths and octaves (that doesn't mean they can't be used in an effective way). But genrally speaking, you could not say that the lord of the rings soundtrack dissmisses all the harmonic advances of the last two hundre years! for christ sake that's absurd! Whoever said that is implying that theres no futher inspiration for it then mid Beethoven? lol. you need to check your dates on that one. Rgardless. you can't even say that the lord of the rings sound track is dissmissive of the last onehundred years either. Lets forget Debussy for now because he isn't the most obvious influence in this score but thats not to dissmiss the harmonic advances and the orchestration of the twentyeth century. Prokofie, Rachmaninov. Even Wagner was mid 19th century and let me assure you, this soundtrack could not have existed before him. Asides from that there is mor ethan ust western classical influences in there. All the Hobbit stuff has massive folkmusic influeneces in it.

Lol, I don't mean to have a go at you mate. Just wanted to straighten out the facts here.

oh and PS ""church scales" (I don't know the correct term in English... "lydian, aeolian etc")" yes those are the correct terms in english aswell. thers allot of lydian used in this soundtrack. Lovely for all those major folky sounding parts. he he. ;)

[Sharma]

PPS it's really quite entertaining to see how vicious some oh these posts get. Good fun eh!

[V o n h ö g e n]

PPS it's really quite entertaining to see how vicious some oh these posts get. Good fun eh!


Yes, everyone needs a good laugh once in a while, but enough is enough. This thread is Jeffrey's thread, so let's respect that and let's return to the more civilized part of the discussion.

Just to get this thread back on track, are there any thoughts on Sam's most interesting post (post #43)?

- Jerome Vonhögen

[nickysnd]

These adaptations are created for the educational music market and are reworked primarily for reasons of playability by young players.
...
[composers/ortchestrators wanting to learn...] It just too small a market.
Thanks Sam, that was a great insight. Everything comes down to the big buck, ain't it? This industry is is not about making films and is not about making music -- it is about making money. I tend to forget that, maybe I should write it in big letters on my walls. :D

Most people won't hear the difference and those who do, probably don't need a score. :rolleyes:
I have no problems with hearing melodies, countermelodies, chords, etc. But film scoring it's not reduced to that. It's mostly textures of sounds, and here we are all only guessing, and it would be nice to see the real thing written down on paper. "Not needing the score??" (You are teasing me, right? :) ) Listen to Debussy's La mer, without the score, then listen to it following the score. Years ago, that was one of the biggest revelations in my life. Even if most film scores are less complex than La mer, there still are plenty of places where you can't put the finger on what's happening there. And there are lots of composers/orchestrators who would love to see the real thing. Yet, probably, too small a market, as Sam said...

Yes it is modal pretty much, but still nowhere near contemporary music,

and the orchestration is largely Romantic style, which still holds grudges against parallel 5ths, 8ves etc...

It does make sense for someone to strive to not have parallel 5ths at such a style,

and I do think that there isn't even the slightest of Debussy or Ravel in the soundtrack.
Shore's goal was to score a contemporary film, so his music is contemporary, even if that doesn't match high brow terminology.

"Romantic" orchestration + "unRomantic" harmony = sounds good with the LOTR film

It does make perfect sense that Shore have used his imagination to come up with a hybrid music that gos well with the film. Parallel 5ths, 8th, 23rds, whatever... everything goes if it matches the film.

Again, no one has implied that Shore's intention was to introduce this or that element from Debussy or Ravel. I'm pretty sure that he couldn't care less if one finds parallel fifths in his score. :p

It's really simple: he was asked to score a film, so he scored it. Admirably, I would say.

BTW, I love parallel 5ths! :cool:

[V o n h ö g e n]

I have no problems with hearing melodies, countermelodies, chords, etc. But film scoring it's not reduced to that. It's mostly textures of sounds, and here we are all only guessing, and it would be nice to see the real thing written down on paper.

You certainly have a point there, but speaking for myself, I have learned the most from reading uncomplicated scores, like string quartets and 4-part vocal music. I'm fascinated by what is not in the score, in other words: which notes can be left out of the score and which ones shouldn't. I didn't learn much from studying film scores (yet).

By the way, "La Mer" is a very interesting score indeed, but perhaps not so revealing as the score of "Jeux", if you ask me.


"Not needing the score??" (You are teasing me, right? :) )

That's right, and we are waiting for your LOTR notation-by-ear with anticipation! ;)


I'm pretty sure that he couldn't care less if one finds parallel fifths in his score. :p
(...)
BTW, I love parallel 5ths! :cool:


I agree, it is pretty useless to hunt down those poor 'forbidden' parallel 5ths, as for every melody written, there is always a parallel universe where that same melody sounds a 5th higher. :rolleyes:


- Jerome Vonhögen

[nickysnd]

we are waiting for your LOTR notation-by-ear with anticipation! ;)
"We?" Is that a nobility plural? :) But that's a good idea actually, I have quite a few film cue takedowns, mostly on paper. But I have a few in various stages in Finale, so I'll consider posting them, following RiffWraith's generous example. No LOTR though, I'm not a big fan of grandiose films and epic scores.

[nikolas]

TShore's goal was to score a contemporary film, so his music is contemporary, even if that doesn't match high brow terminology.I feel somehow weird about the words "high brow".

bye bye Nicky. After 2000 posts of yours and 1800 of mine you've managed to make me ignore you.

A pity that Jeffreys FABULOUS offering has come to such idiotic (from both parties) posts...

[audiochild]

I wanna apologise to everyone who had to read the past pages, I do appreciate Jeffrey's favour to offer this score and didn't want this thread to turn into an argument, though this was not my guilt.
I think -under these circumstances- my answers were appropriate and everyone who reads my posts once in a while knows that I do respect other members' opinions when given in a normal, reasonable way.

still, I am allowed to express my thoughts (as I did in my first post in this thread) and don't need to let myself be offended or attacked in any way because of this. I have read very interesting posts in this thread that contradict me by giving reasonable arguments.

there are many arguments on this site and its a shame that some members do not respect others' views.

so, back on topic, I sometimes wondered about one thing:

when I watch a fantasy/science fiction movie I ask myself if the instruments/sounds making the music represent the time/world etc of the movie.
as an example, the matrix having a kind of futuristic movie/flair with a very electronic soundtrack (and no, Nickysnd, I don't know what kind of music we'll have in the future :p).
on the other hand, when watching LOTR I wonder if there is an 80 piece symphonic hobbit orchestra somewhere in one of these castles...

[A.Leung]

I feel somehow weird about the words "high brow".

bye bye Nicky. After 2000 posts of yours and 1800 of mine you've managed to make me ignore you.

A pity that Jeffreys FABULOUS offering has come to such idiotic (from both parties) posts...

Wow dude - I couldnt agree with you more on that one. What a mess...

[nickysnd]

when watching LOTR I wonder if there is an 80 piece symphonic hobbit orchestra somewhere in one of these castles...
I take that as a funny way to pose a deep (and disturbing) question: why music is needed in films anyways? I know, I know... but still -- why? I think the simplest answer would be: because it works. In spite of all rationality, in spite of all the strong arguments against it (parallel fifths, hobbit orchestras, synths accompanying Alex the Great, etc.) -- it just works. Kind of magic. ;)

[t_l]

Wow. what a thread..

Here is Van Damme punching a snake

http://jj.am/gallery/d/6731-2/VanDammesnake.gif

[10-4]

TO OP:

Thank you, do more please.

[Sharma]

Again, no one has implied that Shore's intention was to introduce this or that element from Debussy or Ravel. I'm pretty sure that he couldn't care less if one finds parallel fifths in his score. :p

I think its pertcuarly relevent to see what influences he's drawn from. When Italk about his I don't mean it as an argument (as some people seem to do so), its simply an interesting obsurvation. No your right he didn't sit down and intentionally include refereences from perticualr composer. Thats doesn't mean you can't obsurve the influences. I think that is one of the most valuable things a music student can do. It helps you understnad it stylistically.

Anyway, yes this thread has become far to arguentative. Some people find it difficult to debate with out arguing. Oh well, nevermind.

[Sharma]

argumentative*

[Jeff Hayat]

TO OP:

Thank you, do more please.

Welcome... no promises as this is VERY time consuming, but will try. :)

Man o' man! If I had known this thread was going to turn out the way it did, I would have thought twice about posting. Why the hell anyone - right or wrong - would let a thread like this turn out this way, I have no idea. Here I am sharing some of what I did thinking that if it can help someone other than myself, then I should. And some of you turn this into a flame-fest. "Oh - but he said...." So what? Stand up, be a man, let it go and move on. Sheesh. What a way to turn something positve into something negative. :(

[nickysnd]

Thats doesn't mean you can't obsurve the influences. I think that is one of the most valuable things a music student can do. It helps you understnad it stylistically.
Imagining another composer's mind is, to me, the second most enlightening experience after composing music. Also, a good training for composing. "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the masters; seek what they sought." -- Basho

OTOH, fifths, harmony, Romanticism, contemporary, etc. -- these are topics for musicologists, not for composers. A composer operates with musical devices, musical gestures, musical bodies. Terminology is secondary. Respecting rules is optional. Imagination and effectiveness reign. LOTR is an imaginative and effective score, IMHO.

This window into HS's mind is invaluable. Thanks again, RiffWraith!

Here (http://bb.xieke.com/files/LOTRcue01.pdf) is the score generated from the midi file. Happy studying! :)

[Jeff Hayat]

Imagining another composer's mind is, to me, the second most enlightening experience after composing music. Also, a good training for composing. "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the masters; seek what they sought." -- Basho

OTOH, fifths, harmony, Romanticism, contemporary, etc. -- these are topics for musicologists, not for composers. A composer operates with musical devices, musical gestures, musical bodies. Terminology is secondary. Respecting rules is optional. Imagination and effectiveness reign. LOTR is an imaginative and effective score, IMHO.

This window into HS's mind is invaluable. Thanks again, RiffWraith!

Here (http://bb.xieke.com/files/LOTRcue01.pdf) is the score generated from the midi file. Happy studying! :)

Very good - how'd you do that? It looks good - save for the bassoons being in T.Clef, and the fact that you wound up with 18 measures instead of 17.

Let me go take a snapshot of the score so we can compare...BRB.

ps - The window into any successful and/or good compser's mind is invaluable. :D

[nickysnd]

Nothing special, just an import to Finale, a few quick graphic fixes and that's it. It's not perfect, there are some minor clef issues as you said and some enharmonics, but it's usable I think. I'm not sure what you mean about the 18th bar though, I didn't touch the notes.

[Jeff Hayat]

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LOTRScore1_2jpg.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/LOTRScore3_4jpg.jpg

[Jeff Hayat]

Wow those are big...LOL...Shot them at the highest res....

Nothing special, just an import to Finale, a few quick graphic fixes and that's it. It's not perfect, there are some minor clef issues as you said and some enharmonics, but it's usable I think. I'm not sure what you mean about the 18th bar though, I didn't touch the notes.


Definitely useable. Not sure about the 18th bar either.....how'd that happen??? :confused:

[nickysnd]

Deliciosus! My hat is way off, gent!

:cool: