Midi-Orchestration Methods

[bozzio]

I was wondering if someone could help me understand a good workflow process for midi-orchestration. I was wondering if I should actually compose my music in Sibelius and then import the Sibelius session into ProTools 7.4 ? Is that even possible ? I have the EWQLSO Platinum Pro Bundle (or atleast I will in a few days), and want to use that library for the actual sound. I guess what I am asking is, should I make my orchestrations the traditional way then import into ProTools, or just work with a midi-controller in a sequencer and do it that way? By the way, if anybody knows how using ProTools with Sibelius works I would love for a brief explanation. I am trying to acheive the most realistic results I can but I have always only done scores the traditional written way and have just recently started working in the midi environment. I have been reading "Acoustic and Midi Orchestration For The Contemporary Composer" by Andrea Pejrolo, just in case you need to know where I am at. Any help in getting me to understand how all this stuff works would be greatly appreciated...Thanks !!

[White Noise 2]

Horse before cart or cart before horse? Or is it more like the chicken & egg thing?

I assume from what you're saying that you would like to write and orchestrate in Sibelius, import the midi file into Pro Tools and then use Pro Tools to play your new library, right? You can do that but I think it will sound a bit mechanical as a mock-up. Whilst when you write a score (as you are in Sibelius) you're trying to give the players as much information about how each note should be played as succinctly as possible, but, when sequencing with samples the aim is to be as verbose/articulate as possible.

What I mean by this, is that when sequencing music we tend to be very specific in our programming of midi elements like velocities, modulation, expression, volume, key switching etc. to give a the midi performance a sense of life. We might overlap certain notes to give a sense of legato for example but if you were to take this data and import it into Sibelius, it invariably comes out as a bit of a mess. My personal vote would be to print out your score and perform each part in the sequencer in Pro Tools. Yes, this will double your work time but it will sound better.

The alternative is to write in Pro Tools making sure that all your midi performances are awsome, save an additional midi clean up version when you are done, clean the midi - make sure that note lengths are correct and not overlapping etc. - and then import that midi file in Sibelius. I find this to be a bit quicker and it ensures that you are creating mock-ups that play to the strengths of your library. That said, this can also mean that the music you write can be less fluid/free because you're constantly trying to find something that works for the samples you have rather than just writing music.

[bozzio]

Thanks White Noise for the help. It really cleared up a lot of things dealing with the various options I have. I guess the method I am going to use is just sketch out my orchestral ideas by hand (Im too slow with Sibelius), therefore I won't loose any of my ideas. Then after I have a good idea of what I want for all the parts I will just start trying to sequence the parts and work with them until I can make a good representation of my sketch. You've been a great help, THANKS A LOT !!

[White Noise 2]

I would say that doing a 3 stave short-score (sketch) of well formed interesting musical ideas and then using that as a jumping off point will be very helpful towards your producing realistic mock ups if you then use the sequencing process to orchestrate in a more detailed manner. Then you could clean that MIDI all up, import into Sibelius (you'll get quite quick quite quickly ;-) and make sure it's all readable.

[bozzio]

How do you typically lay-out a 3 stave sketch? What instruments for which staves?

[boby]

I'm using Sibelius 5 and EWQL Symphonic orchestra gold. How to import kompakt instruments to sibelius? How to use keyswitches? I'm tried to use violin portato and in abreast staff i'm tried to use violin spicatto in next measures. How to switch articulation without switch a keyswitch files? or How to import more keyswitches files in on channel in kompakt. I have fancy that in EWQL Symphonic orchestra I can to use more articulation in my music score. Please scuse my bad english. Thanks for yours understanding.

[boby]

I'm using Sibelius 5 and EWQL Symphonic orchestra gold. How to import kompakt instruments to sibelius? How to use keyswitches? I'm tried to use violin portato and in abreast staff i'm tried to use violin spicatto in next measures. How to switch articulation without switch a keyswitch files? or How to import more keyswitches files in on channel in kompakt. I have fancy that in EWQL Symphonic orchestra I can to use more articulation in my music score. Please scuse my bad english. Thanks for yours understanding.

[Farkle]

For three staves, you generally are not writing for each individual instrument family, or group. It's more like, you're writing the core melody, harmony, and rhythm passages. You will indicate what instruments are playing the melody, by writing things like (vlns., fls., cls. 8vb) next to the melody line; this indicates that the violins and flutes are playing the melody, and the clarinets are doubling it an octave below. Or, you'll voice a big chord in the bass, and say (Trbs., Fr. Hns.) next to it, indicating the low brass plays the chords.

It's a nice way to compose with flow, and get the general ideas of which colors are handling which roles. I compose that way on occasion, but I usually use the above concepts (melody, harmony, rhythm) and compose on a 6-7 stave sketch sheet... that way, if I need the extra staves, I got 'em!!! :)

Mike Worth

[Robbie_2327]

How do you typically lay-out a 3 stave sketch? What instruments for which staves?

I've used the 3 stave sketch method before. I usually woudl use that for say just a piano part and melody, or something similar. Depending on what I'm writting I like to use a 6 stave sketch (sometimes I'll use a 7 or 8 stave sketch too). On 6 staves you can seperate 2 staves each for woodwinds, brass and strings. I usually just use this to jot out my ideas and then I'll do the full orchestration right in Performer.

[Moguls]

Bozzio,

Too bad you already own Sibelius and Pro Tools. The best way to work is to use Cubase. Cubase's scoring function is about as good as Sibelius or Finale and it links to the MIDI data! That way if you make any changes either place they are reflected in the other. I use EWQL Symphonic Orchestra and Symphonic Choirs as plug-ins in Cubase and they work well. Having MIDI an scoring in the same integrated package is the way to go. I use Cubase Studio 4 which is cheaper than the full Cubase and it has everything you need. Check to see if there is a competitive upgrade available from Pro Tools. I upgraded from Sonar and I think it was just under $200US.

[StrangeCat]

you could also when you do a 3 stave sketch write in what instruments are doing what for your harmony, what brass are making up your harmony, what wood winds. I agree you will need to play in each part in Pro tools.

[Elfmann]

How do I make a track in Cubase to sound with an instrument from EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Platinum?

Thanks a lot

[O-Start]

I know a lot of you say that playing live in the sequencer will give more realism to orchestral libraries, but what if the part is actually quite demanding technically, say, for example, a cadenza etc...?

Also, if you import the midi track from sibelius/finale, once you have it there in the sequencer you can still add all the envelopes and shape the sound as you would in a live performance, wouldnt you?

[A.Leung]

if the piece is too demanding for you to play, try playing it in at a SLOWER tempo then place it back to the intended tempo when your done.

[A.Leung]

How do I make a track in Cubase to sound with an instrument from EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Platinum?

Thanks a lot

please elaborate.

[O-Start]

Thx Allan,

Actually then you reckon that my soundcard latency of 13 ms is too much to be able to play my parts live in the sequencer?

[Djoule]

I know a lot of you say that playing live in the sequencer will give more realism to orchestral libraries, but what if the part is actually quite demanding technically, say, for example, a cadenza etc...?

Also, if you import the midi track from sibelius/finale, once you have it there in the sequencer you can still add all the envelopes and shape the sound as you would in a live performance, wouldnt you?

I'm not a keyboard player so I have all my music already written (with guitar pro) then exported to MIDI then imported in Cubase (except my guitar, that I will record separately with an external interface that I'm going to buy) and it's not a problem to me.
Yet I plan to learn keyboard to be more efficient with live recording (especially with symphonic choirs) because I guess it would be easier for me to play articulations live and use modwheel for crossfades etc... than treating each note separately as I do for the moment. ;)
So you can actually treat sound even if you did not play it live :)

[O-Start]

Thx for your post Djoule!

I think for the moment Im still going to work in the sequencer without much live playing ... ;)

[danika]

I also use Cubase. The advantage of Cubase is that the score editor is really quite robust. I can't really compare it to Finale or Sibelius. However, I will say that I've taken arranging and orchestration courses at Berklee, both of which *required* either Finale or Sibilius (or handwritten). I used the Cubase score editor and had no problems.