Symphonic Choirs demo

[Nick Phoenix]

I've got to admit that I've been a bit disappointed with the response to the choir library. It's really an amazing library. Some of the demos indicate that the software still needs improving. So what I am saying is hang in there, we're working hard to simplify and improve it. Anyway, here is the latest demo I did:

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-165

The cue is called "Siberia".

[Ian Livingstone]

I've got to admit that I've been a bit disappointed with the response to the choir library. It's really an amazing library. Some of the demos indicate that the software still needs improving. So what I am saying is hang in there, we're working hard to simplify and improve it. Anyway, here is the demo I did:

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-165

The cue is called "Siberia".

Nick - that sounds awesome. I'm blown away by the potential of this library, and it's been a life-saver on a project I'm working on at the moment. It's also re-assuring to hear you acknowledge that there's still a few teething problems which need sorting. Looking forward to the fixes - release samples in the Kontakt2 versions especially :-)

Cheers,
Ian

[luima]

Nick,
It sounds very realistic in all the dynamic range.
Please could you give us more details on the technic used in this piece: Which voices, mic positions, controllers used to achive the final crescendo, etc..
Thanks
Luis

[Beach]

Is this a file only for Mac?
Can I hear it with PC?
Thanks,
Roberto

P.S.
my major trouble with Choir, an awesome library, is on Kontakt2.

[luima]

I,ve converted the AIFF to mp3 using Wavelab, If you own Cubase then there should be a posibility of importing AIFF format.
Luis

[Daryl]

Is this a file only for Mac?
Can I hear it with PC?
Thanks,
Roberto

P.S.
my major trouble with Choir, an awesome library, is on Kontakt2.

Funny that; my PC will play AIFFs, but apparently not this one...! Any chance of an mp3?

Edit:

Not to worry, I've just converted it using RAD video tools.

D

[exstreme]

I only want to say Nick!!, that I love the choir library, it sounds realistic and great for me and you guys did a great job with this library.

So I am a happy choir user :)

And i don't use wordbuilder. I only bought it for the aahs an oohs an the solo and basses and everything else, the word builder is extra and too complex for me at this moment. I will wait for the video tutorials :rolleyes:

I think, if you do not have wordbuilder under control, and you want to use some singing choirs in your song, then it will make your song sound bad, because it sounds not realistic anymore!! :(

svk

[Ian Livingstone]

Funny that; my PC will play AIFFs, but apparently not this one...! Any chance of an mp3?

D

it's 24bit so you either need to play with a 24bit capable soundcard, or resample the bit-rate to 16

Ian

[mkiz]

Nick,

I have not yet been able to listen to your latest demo (aiff and I am on pc...working on a file conversion), but I must say that the choirs is an absolutely stunning accomplishment. I am struggling a bit with gaining control over the dynamics, partly because of my own system limitations (1 machine, with just 2GB Ram) and the time required to load up two choirs (all my system can manage) tweak things, test, reload, etc....

Considering what can be achieved with the Choirs and Wordbuilder tool, I am willing to struggle a bit more and learn. I hope that in the simplification you mention, there is no loss of capability.

Thanks for producing such an amazing tool!

mkiz.

[Magpie]

Nick,


Considering what can be achieved with the Choirs and Wordbuilder tool, I am willing to struggle a bit more and learn. I hope that in the simplification you mention, there is no loss of capability.

Thanks for producing such an amazing tool!

mkiz.

Ditto .........

This choir library is absolutely fabulous I love it to bits and I feel like I have only just scratched the surface with it so far , but WOW what an invention and concept :D

Also look at this equation ............
It takes three pieces of software to run the choir with word builder , the host seqencer , Kompakt/Kontakt and the word builder itself , then there is all the different hosts we use ,
then add to this the relatively short beta testing period (we all know we were gagging for it's
release (and I am not saying it was rushed out either )) so it stands to reason a few bugs might have sliped by unnoticed untill it was out in the field , I mean it's not that many fresh
softwares that doesn't have a bug ot two , anyone remember the 'poofs' in Cubase SX 2
where it kept just disappearing , what a howler .

Anyway Nick please don't be disapointed , your work on the sample library is perfect as ever ,
Word Builder (the most flexable part of the package regarding alterations) has a bug here and there that can be fixed and it can grow and evolve to perfection in a short space of time
I'm sure of that ;)

I am happily "hanging in there" and having a blast with the choir as it is now already !

[nlamartina]

Nick,

You guys haven't put together a disappointing piece of software. Far from it. I think the reason you're seeing the responses you are is that this is a very new kind of methodology for an instrument that relies on sampling, and it's going to take the community a while to get used to how everything functions. If you folks are thinking of scrapping the current approach (WB+Kompakt+Sequencer), please don't. I don't think it needs anything that drastic. What is there works just fine, and for a 1st generation app, I think your solution to the arduous task of yanking a meaningful pattern of phenomes out of a 38 gig library to create meaningful and realistic speech is both clever and brilliant. To me, the current methodology of SChoirs has two main weaknesses:

- The obtrusive nature of Word Builder
- The lack of default letter velocities for pre-defined words

If these two problems can be fixed, I think it would launch SChoirs into the mainstream where you want it to be.

The first issue already has been covered in the forums, so I won't talk too much about that. Personally, I use Acid 5 to sequence my stuff, and although one could fairly regard it as an unorthodox choice for such a task, its approach to sequencing and how it handles VSTis is virtually identical to other popular apps, and thus, has similar weaknesses in how it must work with SChoirs. In particular, the fact that WB runs only as MFX and VST-MA is, I think, its most crippling feature. Running WB+Kompakt externally (unless you use Cubase, Sonar, and ProTools) isn't a hardship, but it complicates how the program works, and it adds another step to the production process (since tracks have to be bounced instead of rendered). If it were possible to run WB as a VSTi or even just a VST-FX, this would allow any host sequencer to run SChoirs internally, significantly increasing the number of users that can get the program cranking strait out of the box. Heck, it would even work if you made WB run as a DX plugin, since all it's doing is passing MIDI data. I never fully grasped why using VST-MA was necessary, given that the nuts and bolts of the program could be handled by a more popular plugin architecture (but then, I'm no programmer, so if I'm out of line on this issue, please correct me). Further, I think it would be beneficial if WB installed its own proprietary VMR cables for Windows users. It just eliminates another step and more questions from the end user. It also will make the program feel more professional.

The second issue I think would take time, but it would be a perfect 'version 2.0' upgrade that would not only tip users over to SChoirs that are on the fence, but SIGNIFICANTLY speed up the process that one could get meaningful content out of it.

Think of it like this... WB already recognizes a large library of words and spells the Votox out for us. This in itself saves an enormous of time. There's a problem with this though, in that WB sets all letter velocities to their default values, resulting in what I'd call 'burping' syllables (shotgun retroflexes, coughed releases, etc.). When I'm preparing my composition, one of the first tweak exercises involves turning down all the voiced consonants that are too loud, then turning up the unintelligible unvoiced consonants, etc etc etc... It takes a while, and while the consonant sliders are a good blanket adjustment, it only provides a starting point to work from, not a solution. So how about this? In addition to having Votox spellings stored in WB's library, also have appropriate velocities for each letter in those stored words. The timings and speed of each syllable will still be up the to user of course (out of neccessity), but offering default letter velocities will cut their tweak work by a significant amount.

What do you think?

[paoling]

- The obtrusive nature of Word Builder

Regarding this problem a friend of mine used a little trick, since the days of VOTA...

He used to record the midi output of WB directly in the sequencer through a series of passages of MIDI I/O so he could combine the various elements of words spoke through WB, adjust velocities, controllers, all the parameters in one midi track.

So he could close the WB, and run the whole project directly into the sequencer.

Sorry, if my English doesn't allow me to explain more deeply :)

Paolo

[nlamartina]

Regarding this problem a friend of mine used a little trick, since the days of VOTA...

He used to record the midi output of WB directly in the sequencer through a series of passages of MIDI I/O so he could combine the various elements of words spoke through WB, adjust velocities, controllers, all the parameters in one midi track.

So he could close the WB, and run the whole project directly into the sequencer.

Sorry, if my English doesn't allow me to explain more deeply :)

Paolo

No, no. I can understand, and that's a really great idea. I'll have to try that.

[Magpie]

What I would like if it is possible to implement, is where you have the list of Votox
letters on the right hand side of the WB GUI , if you could have the sound in relation to a
word there and then you could click on it with the mouse and it then enters the Votox
letter into the text window @ the curser possition without having to type on the keyboard :)

Then I could just click on the sound I want without havin to keep looking @ the chart in the manual , also it would stop me accidentally typing lower case when it should be uper case
and vice versa :p

[esteso]

Yes, I gave up after trying to use WB and Logic together for two days. I'll be using it later when I have more time to suss it out, but my life is too complicated already. At this point, if it's not relatively easy to use I don't want to (and won't) use it.

As a previous poster said, it would go a long way if it could be used in my host (Logic, DP) instead of standalone. Maybe not your fault, but one way or the other it doesn't work for me.

It's a wonderful sounding instrument, so I'll use the choir without WB and wait for the rest.

PS, I couldn't play your song back on my computer either (G5, OS 10.3.8, Safari etc)

PPS, I love and own many of your libraries. Thanks for making these tools available, I can't imagine working without them anymore.

Cheers

[Magpie]

PS, I couldn't play your song back on my computer either (G5, OS 10.3.8, Safari etc)


Cheers

I imported it to an audio track in Cubase SX and it played just fine there , everything else
I tried failed .
( I think someone said it's because it's in 24 bit )

Nice work Nick :cool:

[thanatopsis]

Some of the demos indicate that the software still needs improving. So what I am saying is hang in there, we're working hard to simplify and improve it.

Are you saying some of the demos sound bad, maybe do to the limitations of the program?
Or did the demo composers mention needed improvements?
I thought the demos sounded quite good overall. Some do sound a bit artificial, but some are excellent.
It IS an expensive package, far outside my budget as a music hobbyist, yet I got it anyway. It sounded like so much fun. How often to you get the chance to have a choir sing naughty words?) :)
Just the library of Oohs and Ahs is nice to have and worth the price, even if it is a bit spendy. It is frightening to think how much time, money, and effort went into this project. it certainly is apparent.

Word Builder is quite excellent. After flipping through the manual while waiting for the lengthy installation (my poor old DVD drive!) I thought it was going to take an enormous amount of tweaking to get anything to sound good. I was so surprised that just typing words and then making a few Votox adjustments had quite usable results, without even messing with the the editor or "learn" command an all.

My complaints about Word Builder that would make things easier for me are few.

I have MOTU's Digital Performer on the Mac. When I saw there was a VST version I was hoping it would run under VST Wrapper, but then I realized it was a special kind of VST plugin. Oh well. I might move SC to my PC anyway.

Word Builder can be made to fit the screen with the Mac's green "+" button, but it would be nice to be able to drag the bottom corner to resize the window. Or am I the only one with that problem?

It would also be nice, as I think I read here, if clicking on the letters of the syllables would give an example sound. I know I'll know the sounds in a few weeks, but still. Just a simple low-res sample example, if not a direct link to one of the loaded choir samples, would help a lot of people.

As I just got the program, I don't know much about it. Is it really only possible to have one window of text open, with the only marker option being "reset position?"
I can live with having to load and record choir parts separately because my computer (2.5GHz G5 w/ 2GB RAM) can't play all the parts at once and other instruments as well. But it would sure be nice to be able to have separate lines of text that can be called up with key switching or controllers.
If I have a few dozen phrases, it would be nice to quickly change between them and play them in various orders. Word Builder seems to update fast enough when I type the text. Would it be difficult to make it be a bit more dynamic?
Also, SOLO WORD is a nice command, but it would be nice if any line of text that is highlighted could be soloed. Again, maybe I just don't know how.

[Nick Phoenix]

Thanks for all the comments. They are being listened to and we are constantly working on improving WB. We have some major updates coming for EWQLSC soon.

[sghoughton]

I think the one thing i'd like cleaned up is the standalone nature as well - that took a little while for me to get set up working properly. There are two vsts that i can think of that use methods that would bypass this issue - jamstix hosts a vst drumkit within itself - so if wordbuilder was the vst and hosted a kompakt instance itself it would fit nicely where a normal vst would fit so that would be one method. The other is use whatever the free stepbeater tool uses - it passes midi through so you can chain it with another vst and audio comes out the other end nicely. It seems to be recognized in my host (Tracktion 2) and works fine.

So that is the only real issue i have with it. Other than that, i've had some success with wordbuilder and intend so spend more time with it in a couple weeks. I quite like it now that its got over some of the initial stability issues.

steve