Registering a copyright???

[musicmad]

Hi,
i understand copyright is an automatic protection, but would registering a copyright with an official body, such as a (copyright registration service) give the copyright owner a stronger case of evidence should there be a dispute over authorship??? i know in the U.S. its a requirement to register your copyright with the (U.S. copyright office) but i dont reside in the U.S. but in europe..

example, additional witnesses, hence the (Copyright registration office) to aurthenticate your ownership of copyright, should there be a dispute...

or is just mailing the copyright to yourself throught the national post just as good???

Musicmad

[SBallard]

Yes, registering with a copyright office would give you a stronger case and most judgments would be of higher payment, opposed to non registered work.

It is not required in the U.S. to register your work. It is copyright the moment you create it.

[TheAlps]

It is not required in the U.S. to register your work. It is copyright the moment you create it.

That is correct however you have to prove you wrote it first. In reality whoever files the copyright first is the owner. Disputing it can happen and be successful but its a painful process that requires $$. And what if someone were to hack your computer and grab your original files. 2 parties both present the same original files for an expensive examination that finds they are both originals......... bad bad bad

Mailing it to yourself is not a good method, and I have heard of cases where it was not accepted at all.

The really only way to ensure you are protected is to file with the Library of Congress. Each filing is $50 US but you can make a CD with 100 songs on it (assuming there is enough play time on it), or however many songs you can fit onto one CD. And then you make a new "collection" of songs, such as "Chris Alpiar Q1 2008 Orchestral Collection" and stuff as many as you can on. Then you pay the 50 bucks and its set in stone. You will get a blue slip about 4-6 weeks later.

http://www.copyright.gov/

Put those blue slips in a safe deposit box or a fire box or someplace really safe, those are your guarantees!

If you are really lazy and just cant be bothered with making a CD and sending it to LOC it is safe to use the ASCAP endorsed internet filing from "Official Software"

http://www.officialsoftware.com/portal/default-osw.asp

I have used them before, tho it is more like $90 to file instead of $50

[nikolas]

All of this assuming that your music will get stolen, right?

I mean, honestly, I've never heard anyone loosing his music, his rights, etc. Just because a couple of hip-hop producers want to sample the sh*t out of the music, it doesn't mean that they will steal your stuff.

In all reality and honesty. If your music is THAT good, and you are THAT good, then chances are that you will also be hired by someone, thus get paid and having proof *poof* like that.

(excuse the simplistic nature of my post)

[TheAlps]

well there are a lot of real scumbags in this biz. The idea is to protect yourself from someone using your product to make a lot of money and leaving you out of the picture. It happens all the time. If you research all the ascap cue sheets you would be simply dumbfounded at how many record label/film company suits put their names as "composer" and swoop on the royalty money. Its really sad.

And hip hop guys that cant compose and use other peoples music to make money with absolutely need to be accountable. You think Shaggy didnt have to pay Juice Newton when he used Angel of the Morning in his hit "Angel"? Or the Fugees didnt have to pay Aretha Franklin for Killing Me Softly?

If you think your music is not of equal importance then by all means do what you want. Yes my music is that good. Yes I am protecting myself as I write. Yes if somehow someway someday someone uses some of my music and doesnt pay me and they make some money with it, I will sue their pants off ;-)

[KrazyKatz]

I mean, honestly, I've never heard anyone loosing his music, his rights, etc. Just because a couple of hip-hop 'producers' want to sample the sh*t out of the music, it doesn't mean that they will steal your stuff.

In all reality and honesty. If your music is THAT good, and you are THAT good, then chances are that you will also be hired by someone, thus get paid and having proof *poof* like that.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but this is a VERY bad misconception..

There are many talentless producers out there that are making a fortune by stealing true talent from small unknown sources.

Lets not forget timbalands outright theft from the unknown Finnish composer 'Tempest' which ended up becoming the no.1 worldwide hit "Do it" for Nelly Furtados album. The true composer never received a single cent in royalties.

If you're skeptical (as I was initially) check out these links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4KX7SkDe4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV2fTEeP6GM&feature=related

Still not convinced that these so called "producers" are outright prowling for lesser known music to make a quick buck..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X58UPPKDsY&feature=related

And I assure you, there is plenty more.

Please fellow composers, be aware... YOUR music is not always as safe as you think!

[Jonathan Kranz]

I took a music business class last year with the former heard of Music at Fox... he had this to say about this subject... while filing a copyright with the office is good for peace of mind, it holds literally no weight in court when it comes to music and intellectual property in general. I could file a copyright for Thriller and they'd probably give it to me.

Proof of creation is really where the evidence is, and as Sballard mentioned you own the copyright as soon as you create it. Keeping your sketches/files is the best way to go. Or if you are really worried about it stick your CD master in a deposit box with the date on it as soon as you are finished. Anyone else trying to use it would come afterword.

Just some 2 cents-


Jonathan

[nikolas]

Again it depends!

1. I work 90% with orchestral music, which is not exactly is fro Timbaland f*cker to sample and steal.
2. Krazykratz: You gave me 3 links for the same producers (which I knew about actually, from other sources as well). I'm not saying it never ever ever happens, but... at least I don't think it's happened to anyone here. Last thing I heard about something fishy was when someone found his name on the credits for a trailer in Batman begins! Wtihout knowing it.
3. As for proving who's is who, I'm not sure, it's never happened to me, but I got manuscripts usually, Cubase project files, the games the tracks are in, are already released and the developers know I worked, WIP versions, etc. Again I've never been in court and I don't know if this would work! And I doubt if the judge will know about music!

If you want to feel safe, everytime you make a song keep it quitely in your closet. Once the songs reach a number that is acceptable to you for payment, go to the registry office and register them. Safe! Whoops, next song will be unregistered! There we go again waiting, etc.

That's my only grips with copyright registering. I have done so, for complete projects. It doesn't cost much, it is 43+ minutes of music, a single CD, it's $50 as you say (don't remember the number in £ actually), and it makes sense.

It also depends from the country! I heard somewhere that things are quite different in France, and that copyright goes to the person who publishes first the music! (same in Greece btw). That is IF I understand things correctly! An ugly situations all together! As for the country you live in, etc, in Greece (I've asked a lawyer), the practice of going in front of a judge and opening a sealed letter is NOT accepted! Simple as that! The whole action of doing that is NOT accepted in court, so mailing yourself a sealed dated envelope, etc, is NOT a safe method, at least for Greece.

KrazyKatz: About your very first link. I can accept that Timbaland may have stolen the riff, but as a musician I have to say that I have my doubts that it is impossible to come up with the same bassline. ACFEACF... I mean it's 7-8 notes in all. Of course drums seem simmilar, and the tempo as well, so dunno...

But for the record, it's happened to me to steal without knowing it or understanding it at the moment, a melody, not from one, but two sources! I can link if you want.

Second link is an outright sampling, so no doubts there.

Third link, again is an outights stealing.

Just for the record that is. The first one is not sampled, but 6 notes, the other two are outright samplings/stealings.

___________________________

As I say, I would imagine that keeping quiet about your music until registered, makes sense. You can't really register once a week with the new track, can you? Just an idea that is... But Jonathan seems to agree with me.

[musicmad]

Hi everyone,

thanks for all your feedback, "very helpful" so could anyone suggest where i could register my copytright in the UK??? i've researched upon two so far, the UKCS (united kindom copyright service) and the IPR (Interllectual property rights copyright service) I've gone the traditional way of addressing the copyright to myself through the national post, but would still seek to have additional witnesses to claim authorship over the copyright, should there ever be a disput..

Is anyone using the above services???

Cheers
Musicmad

[Peterkjones]

Hi Musicmad.
Go to www.ipo.gov.uk/copy.htm for a complete description of UK laws relating to copyright. Sorry, but posting material to yourself will not stand up in court.
Best Peterkjones

[peter5992]

Musicmad:

1. The registration of a copyright is possble here in the United States. However in general it is not available in Europe that I know of. Check with your local UK resrouces.

2. Copyright exists as of the moment you fix a score in a tangible medium, such as your computer (hard disk), or paper, or whatever.

3. Posting to yourself - also referred to as "poor man's copyright" - is indeed not recommended (you can mail anything to yourself right - who is to prove what was in the mail)?

In general: for legal issues, retain a qualified UK copyright sollicitor!

[FinnArild]

Hi Musicmad.
Go to www.ipo.gov.uk/copy.htm for a complete description of UK laws relating to copyright. Sorry, but posting material to yourself will not stand up in court.
Best Peterkjones

On what basis do you claim that?

[Peterkjones]

Hi FinnArild,
Melancholy experience, I'm afraid. Perhaps I should have clarified the remark by saying that this applies in the UK and would not stand up in court as the sole proof of copyright. The gov.uk site says on Automatic copyright ... so long as you have created a work that qualifies for copyright protection...you will have copyright protection without having to do anything to establish this... The problem comes if and when you have to go to Court where you have to prove to a reasonable level that you are sole creator of the work. The site goes on to say...neither registration nor sending a copy of the work to yourself show that you were the creator of the work... That's the problem, as I found out. It helps, but of itself is not enough. If you want to find out all the current legislation re: copyright in the UK you can download it from http://www.ipo.gov.uk/copy/c-law/c-legislation.htm Hope this helps.

[fongi]

Or if you are really worried about it stick your CD master in a deposit box with the date on it as soon as you are finished.
Just some 2 cents-

Jonathan

What happens when the fraudulent copy appears before the judge with an even earlier date written on it ?

[Hokuto Warrior]

WIP WILL stand up in court. If some asshole decides to rip you off but you have the manuscripts and original sequencer files, plus little earlier versions you did, along with the company you wrote the music for, whoever steals your music against all this evidence is in deep________ (fill the blank)

Golden Warrior. :D

[Hokuto Warrior]

By the way...

I notice this Nanto Warrior cat calls himself 'Warrior' or 'Golden Warrior' so I'll do the same!

Golden Warrior. :D

[FinnArild]

Hi FinnArild,
Melancholy experience, I'm afraid. Perhaps I should have clarified the remark by saying that this applies in the UK and would not stand up in court as the sole proof of copyright. The gov.uk site says on Automatic copyright ... <snip>

Yes, I see. That is a point, but do you have any example where a copyright conflict has been put down based on the lacking of such evidence?

[peter5992]

What happens when the fraudulent copy appears before the judge with an even earlier date written on it ?

Well, it depends on the jurisdiction in which the copyright battle is fought. Here in the United States, copyright infringement cases are always brought before a federal court (not a state court) and the Federal Rules of Evidence - which are highly complex - would determine on the admissability of evidence.

You are referring to a situation where a document is forged -- that is pretty extreme. Couple of points on that:

1. Forging is a felony and you can be sent to jail for that - regardless of any copyright issues. (Lying to courts or trying to tamper with evidence or the process of law is not taken lightly in the United States).

2. Usually, in the period preceding the trial, parties do extensive research, hire private investigators, jury consultants, and so on.

3. Also, there is a process called "discovery" by which parties to a lawsuit are compelled to produce evidence on the facts in the case (if they refuse they again face serious sanctions). Parties on both sides will get tons of paper and will carefully read through it.

In summary, chances are that the truth will come out -- you will not get very far by backdating a document.

Just my $ 0.02 ----

Peter

ps again, to cover my ***, this is not intended to give legal advice to anyone, and may not be relied upon by anyone, and you should consult your own legal counsel for any legal issues you may face.