The Emerging Film Composer

[A.Leung]

Thought I'd share. Darn good read:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0615136230/ref=pe_606_9114290_pe_ar_t1

[eleventler]

Thanks Allan, this seems interesting, will definately check it out!

[TheAlps]

Bellis is a great guy and his book is really well put together. I reccomend it to all

[peter5992]

Yes - this is definitely worthwile to read. Also, I completely get it, which is more than I can say of all the technical manuals I am working through in my struggle to get my stuff working. What it does particularly well is picture a quite sobering "both feet on the ground" perspective on making money as a film composer. Richard Bellis is a very nice guy, by the way, I met him a couple of weeks ago at the ASCAP Expo (I now have an autographed copy ;-).

There is one thing that sparked my interest though, thought I would throw it out here and ask your guys' opinion since you have been doing this for a long time. Richard writes that the investment in libraries is thousands of $$, and that libraries become redundant in a couple of years.

Now, is that really true? Seems to me that if you have e.g. the symphonic orchestra platinum pro xp libraries really well set up and running (hope to get there sometime this year!), you are good to go for the next decades. Yes, a lot changes in modern music, but classical orchestras have been around for the past couple of hundred years, and probably will be around for another couple hundred of years at the least.

This seems especially true since some film producers cannot even tell the difference between say a horn and a trumpet. They're not going to hear the difference between a score well produced with the EWQL SO libraries, versus a live recording.

Or do they? What do you think?

[White Noise 2]

Great book. My father bought me this for x-mas and I finished it by the end of Boxing Day. Wife complained that I spent the two days with my head in a book.

There's a lot in there that people will be familiar and some rather obvious stuff about running a business but it's nice to see it all tied together holistically.

[gravehill]

I have it as well and give it my warmest recommendations!

[rikp]

I will also jump on the wagon for this book. Good read and full of great info! Worth the $$.

Peace

rikp

[deprogrammed]

Ahh yeah. This was a great read indeed.

[V o n h ö g e n]

I'm not sure if this is 100% on topic, since I didn't read the book (yet), but a particular phenomenon outside the music industry made me think of the 'both feet on the ground' principle which seems to be a topic (or at least a perspective) in R.Bellis's book.

Today, I learned that in modelling, there's a difference between glamour modelling and commercial modelling. Of course, most models wish to become a glamour model. As a result, many aspiring glamour models work for free or don't mind to be underpayed, as long as it helps them fullfill their ultimate dream of reaching glamour status. The trouble is, that those models who don't make it into glamourland have a hard time returning to commercial modelling, since they are now expected to work for (almost) free. Ironically, they would have been better off if they didn't persue their dream in the first place.

I was wondering, isn't this the same in the world of (media) composers?
Any thoughts?

- Jerome Vonhögen

[nickysnd]

I'm not sure if this is 100% on topic, since I didn't read the book (yet), but a particular phenomenon outside the music industry made me think of the 'both feet on the ground' principle which seems to be a topic (or at least a perspective) in R.Bellis's book.

Today, I learned that in modelling, there's a difference between glamour modelling and commercial modelling. Of course, most models wish to become a glamour model. As a result, many aspiring glamour models work for free or don't mind to be underpayed, as long as it helps them fullfill their ultimate dream of reaching glamour status. The trouble is, that those models who don't make it into glamourland have a hard time returning to commercial modelling, since they are now expected to work for (almost) free. Ironically, they would have been better off if they didn't persue their dream in the first place.

I was wondering, isn't this the same in the world of (media) composers?
Any thoughts?

- Jerome Vonhögen
I think the analogy is quite appropriate, in the sense that some up-and-coming (hmmm...) composers place their bet on the power of credits, which has its glamour, albeit a deceptive one. Of course, glamour is deceptive by nature -- but isn't it bitterly ironical when it deceives its own users?

When one becomes famous through working for peanuts, he/she becomes famous also for working for peanuts -- and that fame sticks in a business based on typecasting: once a cheap guy, forever a cheap guy. Producers are not stupid -- when someone is cheap, he/she is cheap for a reason. Everything comes at a price, and everyone reap what they sow. If *you* don't value your work, why should someone else? Generally, film producers look down on musicians and are used to abuse them. We all walk on a very slippery terrain here, with pitfalls at every step. We are stunts, brothers, we need to perform political somersets.

Another (related) issue is that many of us new-comers work alone, doing all the jobs for the gig. That doesn't and can't bring good results. Filmscoring is clearly team-work, for at least two strong reasons: 1) different tasks to accomplish requiring different skills (no one can master all of them at a professional level), and 2) time pressure. Filmmaking is team-work, how can filmscoring be otherwise? It's absurd. Many scorn Zimmer and JNH for their "factory" approach, but that's the only way to do it properly -- and I bet many composers*** work in teams, although they don't admit it -- some out of vanity, some out of fear. It's ridiculous, or rather sad, how we shoot ourselves in the leg -- and not only ourselves, but even each other. We have to stick together and to "force" producers to respect our work and skills, and to reward them properly -- and that can be done IMO only by working together in teams. That will rise the bar in many ways, just think of it.

*** Excepting John Williams, who is not human but a Jedi Knight, may the Force be with the rest of us. :D

[MPDmike]

I just ordered the book, and can't wait to read what you guys are commenting on.
... When one becomes famous through working for peanuts, he/she becomes famous also for working for peanuts ...
It is always going to be tough breaking into a field like this for the first time. If you don't have a relative who is a Hollywood producer, and you have no friends who just happen to know somebody with influence, then how do you even start to write music for big budget films?

I guess there's only the long road of working on small, inexpensive projects until somebody notices the budding composer. At least, in the age of the Internet, there are plenty of websites that can showcase your music to anybody who is interested.

[nickysnd]

__________

Originally Posted by nickysnd View Post
"... When one becomes famous through working for peanuts, he/she becomes famous also for working for peanuts ..."
__________

It is always going to be tough breaking into a field like this for the first time. If you don't have a relative who is a Hollywood producer, and you have no friends who just happen to know somebody with influence, then how do you even start to write music for big budget films?

I guess there's only the long road of working on small, inexpensive projects ...
I was not referring to the size of budgets, I was referring to: accepting to be abused. The point raised by Jerome was that many "composers" do that willingly -- working for free (or for next to nothing) on commercial (budget) productions, which I find insane. That's suicide. Also, its large scale is completely outrageous, it's like general mindless complicity to musical genocide. How can a composer participate in that?

Forget "big budget" Hollywood productions -- those guys won't hand their baby to a beginner. But you will learn that every film is on an "extremely tight" budget (probably even those "big budget" productions), especially at the end, when the scoring comes in. My point was that selling *yourself* cheap can only go against *you*. There are other ways to be compensated when the producers say there's little money left for music. It's good to remind them that the "what you pay is what you get" principle works also with music, especially with music. Undervaluing music will make their film look bad, there's no doubt about it. Filmmakers need to learn that, in the economy of the film, the scoring is as important as the cinematography and montage combined. I have reasons to believe that many films' failures are due to improper scoring. Music is a very powerful device that play hard, albeit unnoticed, on human psychology. They need to learn to treat scoring with due care, and properly reward the scorer. And that begins with our own attitude.

[Counterpoint]

There is one thing that sparked my interest though, thought I would throw it out here and ask your guys' opinion since you have been doing this for a long time. Richard writes that the investment in libraries is thousands of $$, and that libraries become redundant in a couple of years.

Now, is that really true? Seems to me that if you have e.g. the symphonic orchestra platinum pro xp libraries really well set up and running (hope to get there sometime this year!), you are good to go for the next decades. Yes, a lot changes in modern music, but classical orchestras have been around for the past couple of hundred years, and probably will be around for another couple hundred of years at the least.

This seems especially true since some film producers cannot even tell the difference between say a horn and a trumpet. They're not going to hear the difference between a score well produced with the EWQL SO libraries, versus a live recording.

I agree with you... a library like EWQLSO Pro (even the Gold edition) will keep you going for a while. It's pretty much a given that newer and better stuff comes out, but there is a threshold where adding more features is not as big an improvement. At this point, I think we're going to see larger improvements in the way we create music rather than improvements in the actual sounds we use. It's really not going to sound drastically better to re-record all the instruments again. On the other hand, it's always nice to have new sounds, even just for the sake of layering them with the old sounds. Helps a bit with that realism thing and also helps to distinguish one virtual orchestra creation from another.

Also you made a good point about the producers, though I would take that a step farther and say that maybe 1% (or less) of the film's audience would be able to tell the difference between something well crafted with samples and a live performance.

*edit* Er... and to keep this at least a little bit on track... thanks to Allan for sharing the link to that book, I will definitely check that out!

- Matt

[nickysnd]

maybe 1% (or less) of the film's audience would be able to tell the difference between something well crafted with samples and a live performance.
Yes, virtually no lay man will be able to tell that. Heck, very few can tell the difference between an oboe sound and a clarinet sound. But, IMO, what is far more important than those details is: there's music that clings, and music that doesn't. Audiences are very sensitive to that, even if they aren't articulate about it. And here Matt's comment was spot on:
At this point, I think we're going to see larger improvements in the way we create music rather than improvements in the actual sounds we use.
It's not the flute, it's what you do with it.

[peter5992]

I agree with you... a library like EWQLSO Pro (even the Gold edition) will keep you going for a while. It's pretty much a given that newer and better stuff comes out, but there is a threshold where adding more features is not as big an improvement. At this point, I think we're going to see larger improvements in the way we create music rather than improvements in the actual sounds we use. It's really not going to sound drastically better to re-record all the instruments again. On the other hand, it's always nice to have new sounds, even just for the sake of layering them with the old sounds. Helps a bit with that realism thing and also helps to distinguish one virtual orchestra creation from another.

Also you made a good point about the producers, though I would take that a step farther and say that maybe 1% (or less) of the film's audience would be able to tell the difference between something well crafted with samples and a live performance.

- Matt

Thanks Matt - this pretty much confirms what I already had in mind, even as a newbie.

Now, I want to build on this, and take it to the next level. And this goes to the business and finance of composing for film and TV. I have this hypothetical theory. To keep it simple, I refer to this as the "expansion pack". This is how it works:

Let's say, a moviemaker comes up to me and says: "hey peter, you were referred to me by this and that, I checked you out, listened to the music and clips on your website, I like your work, I'd like you to write a score for my next film. Unfortunately, I only have $ 50k to spend."

At that point, I think and (1) say yessir!! but (2) wonder in the back of my mind if I can deliver (especially after having read Richard's book), being consciously aware of third party costs (studio time, musicians, copyists, engineers, tuners, and what all).

So instead I say this: "Thank you very much - I greatly appreciate your interest and confidence in me. I can assure you that you will not be disappointed. However, you are aware that I am very small business - call it one man band if you will - and that the budget is quite limited. Therefor, I have the following proposal: (1) I can produce the music from start to business fully in my own home studio, using my high end software, hardware, and state of the art libraries, and it will sound just as good as a live orchestra, and you won't be able to tell the difference; (2) but, if you really want a live orchestra, you realize that I will have to retain musicians, book a studio, hire engineers, et cetera, maybe even a specialized film conductor, and you agree that you will assume all such external additional costs."

Now, what do you think about that? From a business perspective this is attractive from a couple of perspectives:

(1) You could price option 1 a little below what the filmmaker has for a budget, making it an attractive option for him or her to accept.
(2) You have no financial exposure for third party costs - in other words, if the filmmaker goes for the second and goes totally overboard, it won't cost you as composer.

I wanted to pick Richard's brains about this when I met him at the ASCAP Expo but there just wasn't time - there were too many people waiting in line.

Thank for all of your thoughts and comments - this is an interesting forum.

Peter

[Counterpoint]

Let's say, a moviemaker comes up to me and says: "hey peter, you were referred to me by this and that, I checked you out, listened to the music and clips on your website, I like your work, I'd like you to write a score for my next film. Unfortunately, I only have $ 50k to spend."

At that point, I think and (1) say yessir!! but (2) wonder in the back of my mind if I can deliver (especially after having read Richard's book), being consciously aware of third party costs (studio time, musicians, copyists, engineers, tuners, and what all).

So instead I say this: "Thank you very much - I greatly appreciate your interest and confidence in me. I can assure you that you will not be disappointed. However, you are aware that I am very small business - call it one man band if you will - and that the budget is quite limited. Therefor, I have the following proposal: (1) I can produce the music from start to business fully in my own home studio, using my high end software, hardware, and state of the art libraries, and it will sound just as good as a live orchestra, and you won't be able to tell the difference; (2) but, if you really want a live orchestra, you realize that I will have to retain musicians, book a studio, hire engineers, et cetera, maybe even a specialized film conductor, and you agree that you will assume all such external additional costs."

Or option 3: You take the hybrid route. Do the bulk of the music using libraries (the background tracks) and hire a few session musicians to play the lead lines, which should still work fairly well within the original budget.

I guess it really depends on the scale of the project and what they expect from you. Are you just composing the music, or are you being hired as the music director for the project?

From the larger scale projects I've seen the budget sheets for, it looks like it's pretty common for the producers to already have a good idea about what they need to pay for where the music is concerned. If they don't, then they either haven't done their homework, they lack experience, or there's something dishonest going on.

Cheers,

- Matt

[IvanP]

Thanks Matt - this pretty much confirms what I already had in mind, even as a newbie.

Now, I want to build on this, and take it to the next level. And this goes to the business and finance of composing for film and TV. I have this hypothetical theory. To keep it simple, I refer to this as the "expansion pack". This is how it works:

Let's say, a moviemaker comes up to me and says: "hey peter, you were referred to me by this and that, I checked you out, listened to the music and clips on your website, I like your work, I'd like you to write a score for my next film. Unfortunately, I only have $ 50k to spend."

At that point, I think and (1) say yessir!! but (2) wonder in the back of my mind if I can deliver (especially after having read Richard's book), being consciously aware of third party costs (studio time, musicians, copyists, engineers, tuners, and what all).

So instead I say this: "Thank you very much - I greatly appreciate your interest and confidence in me. I can assure you that you will not be disappointed. However, you are aware that I am very small business - call it one man band if you will - and that the budget is quite limited. Therefor, I have the following proposal: (1) I can produce the music from start to business fully in my own home studio, using my high end software, hardware, and state of the art libraries, and it will sound just as good as a live orchestra, and you won't be able to tell the difference; (2) but, if you really want a live orchestra, you realize that I will have to retain musicians, book a studio, hire engineers, et cetera, maybe even a specialized film conductor, and you agree that you will assume all such external additional costs."

Now, what do you think about that? From a business perspective this is attractive from a couple of perspectives:

(1) You could price option 1 a little below what the filmmaker has for a budget, making it an attractive option for him or her to accept.
(2) You have no financial exposure for third party costs - in other words, if the filmmaker goes for the second and goes totally overboard, it won't cost you as composer.

I wanted to pick Richard's brains about this when I met him at the ASCAP Expo but there just wasn't time - there were too many people waiting in line.

Thank for all of your thoughts and comments - this is an interesting forum.

Peter

I think there is a (fourth) option...you answer him...ok, though at this price I will be able to book you a chamber set of musicians, explain him that it will not sound as big as a full orchestra, but it will sound balanced since you master your craft :)
For 50k you can deliver a full score, I know some nice film scores have been done with less than 20k with at least 12-15 musicians and a recording studio. You will keep for yourself around 15-10k + royalties, which is not that bad IMO...at least it is better than to loose the opportunity...at least here, in Spain :)

[likecmposr]

Wow-I want this book.

[jheary]

I would also recommend Bellis' book as a wonderful introduction to the aspiring film composer. It was full of sage advice and gave me quite a bit of food for thought.

With regard to "working for peanuts", this is never a good idea at least as a starting point in negotiations. In fact, Bellis addresses this issue in his book, but I'll speak from my own experience. If you accept a job that pays peanuts, do yourself and the industry a favor by invoicing your work at the non-discounted rate and show the discount you've provided "for this job only". This will give you credibility when the next job comes in and you have your fee documented as a starting point for negotiations again.

In the end, if you have nothing and someone offers you something, ...you'll probably take it -- just do some damage control to your career and the industry so the expectation of low-cost for high-value work is not perpetuated. Oh, and BTW, make sure you deliver high-value work. ;-)

Another book I found useful was: "Complete Guide to Film Scoring" by Richard Davis. It's a different style than Bellis' book. There's more history of the industry and some interviews at the end of the book. Which reminds me of another book, "Knowing the Score" which is a collection of brief interviews with established film composers discussing some of their approach to scoring.

[jheary]

I would also recommend Bellis' book as a wonderful introduction to the aspiring film composer. It was full of sage advice and gave me quite a bit of food for thought.

With regard to "working for peanuts", this is never a good idea at least as a starting point in negotiations. In fact, Bellis addresses this issue in his book, but I'll speak from my own experience. If you accept a job that pays peanuts, do yourself and the industry a favor by invoicing your work at the non-discounted rate and show the discount you've provided "for this job only". This will give you credibility when the next job comes in and you have your fee documented as a starting point for negotiations again.

In the end, if you have nothing and someone offers you something, ...you'll probably take it -- just do some damage control to your career and the industry so the expectation of low-cost for high-value work is not perpetuated. Oh, and BTW, make sure you deliver high-value work. ;-)

Another book I found useful was: "Complete Guide to Film Scoring" by Richard Davis. It's a different style than Bellis' book. There's more history of the industry and some interviews at the end of the book. Which reminds me of another book, "Knowing the Score" which is a collection of brief interviews with established film composers discussing some of their approach to scoring.