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malcolmb
06-11-2008, 07:07 AM
Please help a complete techno idiot!

I have just replaced my ancient Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card with an M Audiophile 192. Installed fine. Works fine (card plugged into a pair of M Audio DX4 speakers):confused:.

Then tried to set it up in Sonar 4.

Set Midi Input to Delta AP 192 Midi
Set Midi Output to Delta AP 192 Midi (the only other midi option is Microsoft midi mapper)

In Audio options:

Playback Timing Master – M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2
Record Timing Master M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2

Playback works OK.

On an Audio track:

Set ‘In’ to Stereo M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2
Set ‘Out’ to A M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2

When I now try to record, I get nothing.

I am sure the answer is obvious but I just cannot see it. Would be really grateful for some help.

Best Regards
Malcolm

Thomas Regin
06-11-2008, 07:13 AM
Hey Malcom,

What exactly are you trying to record?

By setting your input on the track to "M Audio Delta AP192 1/2" you are telling Sonar to record any input on your audio-card's first stereo channel (1/2 = Left + Right mono channel).

So unless you have a microphone or some kind of external device hooked up to this stereo channel, Sonar will record exactly what it gets, which is silence! :-)

Hope this helps!

Thomas.

malcolmb
06-11-2008, 11:06 AM
Hi Thomas

Sincere thanks for responding. Truly appreciated. I write all my music as notation within the Staff View of Sonar. I set up a new project with say 12 Midi tracks. Each midi track has its own instrument (eg. GPO violin, viola, trumpet etc. – still saving for EWQLSO) or EWQLSC voice and its own channel. I then notate the music for each instrument in its track. Once I am happy with the piece, I insert an Audio track, arm it for recording and then record the piece. I have no keyboard, microphones or anything like that attached. So the music is all in Sonar.

By way of experiment, I have reinstalled the old Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card to see what the right setting for that were. The only differences (if you replace “M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2” with “Santa Cruz”) is in the Midi setup. With Santa Cruz, I have:

Midi Input – Santa Cruz External MIDI (instead of Delta AP 192 Midi)
Midi Output – Santa Cruz DLS Synth (instead of Delta AP 192 Midi).

I am reasonably certain the issue is the last one. Something to do with wave table?

A wise person in another thread said my music sounded “muddy”! He was right and I am sure the cause is the soundcard, hence me buying the AP192. But I really do need to get it to work.

Any thoughts?
:confused:
Best Regards
Malcolm

Thomas Regin
06-11-2008, 11:54 AM
Hi again, Malcolm (sorry for calling you "Malcom" before).

Once I am happy with the piece, I insert an Audio track, arm it for recording and then record the piece. I have no keyboard, microphones or anything like that attached. So the music is all in Sonar.

Ah, well that procedure really isn't necessary. Just hit Ctrl+A to select all your tracks and go to the edit menu and select "Bounce to tracks". Sonar will automatically bounce all tracks that support "bouncing" into your project. Tracks that support bouncing are normal audio-tracks and MIDI-tracks that are connected to a virutal instrument such as EWQLSO.

I am not familiar with the Audiophile card, but often it can be quite complicated to get the cards to record it's own sound. Because what you're actually trying to do, is record the sound that the Audiophile card produces itself from within Windows. That sound isn't really routed, by default, to any input on the audiocard. It's only routed to an output. So what you need to do is read the manual and find out what you should do to have the Internal sound routed to an input. The way to do that on my RME FireFace 800 is to open its software mixer hold down CTRL while I select the channels I want to route to itself.

It's difficult to explain, but you shouldn't even be using this approach. You should be doing everything from within Sonar by using its bouncing-feature! :)

Good luck,

Thomas.

malcolmb
06-11-2008, 04:06 PM
Hi Thomas

Very many thanks. I haven’t used the ‘Bounce to tracks’ facility before and I shall certainly give it a try. My problem is that the virtual instruments I use (GPO, VSL and EWQLSC) don’t always react to dynamics and velocity in Sonar. So to get dynamics (forte, piano, crescendo etc.) I use the mixers in Console View when I am recording. A bit Heath Robinson but it works. This is why the audio track record facility is so important. I’ve been through the AP192 (pdf) User manual and cannot find anything about routing output to input. I’ve also tried the Sonar user forum with no success. Looks like I am just going to have to work my way through this.

Best Regards
Malcolm

Thomas Regin
06-11-2008, 11:27 PM
Malcolm,

With all due respect, that sounds like a tedious and unnecessary process to go through. It must take a LOT of time too?

Do you ever use the Piano View in Sonar? In here you can draw both velocity and other controller values to your MIDI-tracks. Controller CC#7 in EWQLSO is volume and CC#11 is expression. CC#64 is sustain and CC#1 is the modwheel. You can also change the velocity with which each note was played in the Piano View.

There should be no reason, whatsoever, why you would want to record something that plays from within Sonar. It's a DAW = Digital Audio Workstation, which means that you can do whatever you want with your sound without going analog. And what you're doing is going analog, because you're trying to record the output from the Audiophile into your Turtle Beach card. I occasionally use the "route output to input" feature to record stuff from windows. Like recording sound from a video game or a streaming video or something like that.


Thomas.

malcolmb
06-12-2008, 12:56 AM
Hi Thomas

You are right. It is very tedious and time consuming. I suppose I just feel comfortable with a line of staves and notes in front of me (oh for the days of quill and parchment!). I have never used the Piano Roll view and clearly this is something I must get to grips with.

Also thank you for telling me what DAW means. I keep seeing this and this is the first time I have been told what it actually means!

I am sure this is going to sound even more stupid than my previous posts but can you please explain what you mean by going analog and not needing to record within Sonar. Once I have written a piece in Sonar (say an orchestration of 12 instruments on 12 Midi tracks), I want to be able to post it at Soundclick.com and Myspace and to do this I need to produce an MP3. At the moment, I create a wav file of the Midi tracks by recording via an Audio track and then convert this to an MP3. I suspect that yet again I am missing something (other than brain cells!).

Best Regards
Malcolm

www.soundclick.com/malcolmbrown

Thomas Regin
06-12-2008, 02:48 AM
Malcolm,

Stupid questions don't exist and I'll try my best to explain this.

Audio software is complicated and I have spent the last 10 years trying to come to terms with it! I had the exact same problems when I started out.

Going Analogue
Your Audiophile card is digital. It has a PCI-card (or maybe FireWire?) connection to your computer which means that any data transferred to and from your computer to the soundcard is digitally transferred with no loss at all (the transfer is binary, meaning that any data transferred is simply just numbers). This is what DAWs do best. Now what happens if you plug a couple of rusty old Jack-cables into your soundcard and record the output on a music cassette in your old Hi-Fi system? You're going analogue! The sound is no longer transferred digitally, but analogously (spelling?) with a heavy loss of sound quality as a consequence. Analogue transfers consist of electric impulses rather than binary digits and are much more prone to outside interference.

Staying digital
So the key issue here is to stay digital. Some producers love the analogue sound, but most of them will work digitally until the whole project is done. Then they'll send their output through some analogue devices to get that "old" sound of tube amplifiers etc. found in old equipment! But I'm guessing(!) that this approach is not relevant for you, because you're not aiming for the analogue sound.

Anyway.. Back to your problem. They say that a picture says more than a thousand words, so I made you this little screen recording of me loading a Virtual Instrument in Sonar 6 and then bouncing it to create an mp3-file.

Unfortunately I had to cut the quality quite a bit. The original file was 90mb and I cut it down to 7mb.

Screen Recording (http://www.thomas-regin.com/files1/Screen_Recording_1.wmv)

First I'm loading the PianoTeq Virtual Instrument. I set up my MIDI-track to output through the virtual instrument audio bus. Then I'm recording a few bars of music. After this I open the piano roll and change the velocities and apply some Controller CC#11 values.

Then I select my MIDI-recording and the Virtual Instrument audio bus, bounce the result and export it as an mp3-file to my desktop.

This is how to do it to stay completely digital. I'm bouncing a single track here, but you can bounce a complete orchestra with 150 tracks into a single Audio-track if you want to. Same procedure!

I hope this helps!!

All the best,

Thomas.

malcolmb
06-12-2008, 05:02 AM
Thomas

That is brilliant. I am going to have to watch it a few more times but I can already see the potential. Sincere thanks.

Malcolm

Thomas Regin
06-12-2008, 05:13 AM
Malcolm,

Let me know if you want the big 88MB Avi-file! It's much less muddy.

/Thomas.

persentio
06-14-2008, 01:12 AM
Hey Malcolm,

I am quite unsure of what exactly you are trying to do; tell me if I am wrong. From what I interpret, you are trying to do a recording of your MIDI performances of your virtual instruments to Audio in real time and then using the Console view in SONAR to record all the volume changes you desire so that the resulting audio file generated from the recording contains the dynamics? Are you recording any analog instruments?

Also, have you tried doing this same procedure using your old soundcard and where there any similar problems you encountered?

malcolmb
06-14-2008, 05:11 AM
Hi Persentio

Sincere thanks for responding. Truly grateful.

If I start with the easy question. My old Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card works perfectly doing what I will explain below. Which is perhaps why I have taken this somewhat laborious route to record my compositions. Basically, in the Santa Cruz control panel, I set ‘Record Mix’ to Stereo Mix (other options are Microphone, CD Player, Synth daughter card etc.). If I do this, Sonar works perfectly.

Your description of what I am trying to do is correct. I set up say 12 instruments and voices as individual Midi tracks each with their own channel in a Sonar project. The source of each instrument or voice is a GPO instrument in a Kontakt Player2 or EWQLSC VST2 which I have already inserted into the Sonar project. I then write the music by notation for each instrument / voice in Staff View of Sonar. I then set up an Audio track with “In” set to “Stereo Santa Cruz” and “Out” set to “Lexi Santa Cruz”. Because Sonar 4 has limited facilities (quite understandably) for dynamics like crescendo etc, I open up the Console View, start the piece recording and add the dynamics by fiddling around with the sliders for each Kontakt Player as the piece is recording (the sliders for each instrument in Console View don’t work with Kontakt Player which is why I have to work with the Players themselves). I appreciate it sounds cumbersome and certainly now I have had excellent advice on the potential use of the Piano Roll View and Bounce to Track, I know I can achieve much of what I want there. But not all.

The problem is now with my new soundcard, the M Audio Audiophile 192. I set it up in Sonar and playback is perfect. But I cannot get it to record. I set the Audio track ‘In’ to Stereo M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2 and ‘Out’ to A M Audio Delta AP192 1 / 2, which is as close as I can get to the Santa Cruz settings. But this doesn’t work. Clearly the outputs from each instrument Midi track aren’t being received as inputs by the Audio track. I cannot find any where on the AP192 control panel to set Record Source as I can with the Santa Cruz.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards
Malcolm

PS. Thank you for your advice on the other tread. Sounds like that book would be an excellent purchase and I will get it.

persentio
06-14-2008, 06:03 AM
Ok; Now that I've gotten the picture, I can teach you an easier method of recording your audio track volume changes (called Automation; which I shall explain later). Thomas has provided an alternative you could look into. They are the same thing basically, but work differently (his is directly via MIDI CC messages, but the method I want to show you is by digital automation of the audio track's parameters). Audio hardware and software routing is a pain in the butt sometimes; so doing things the simple (but by no means slipshot) way will much better streamline your production without you worrying about whether your recordings can work or not! ;)

But first, we need to get the sound card properly working. The way I see it, the Audio Input is configured incorrectly. Also, it is highly recommended you completely uninstall ALL your previous soundcard's drivers and software as they could cause a driver conflict.

To begin with, instantiating and configuring the MIDI tracks and Audio tracks separately is unecessary in my opinion; From my 3 screenshots below, I have inserted Choirs by the method described further down this post, as well as have manually created an Audio track via 'Insert -> Audio Track'. The default setting for the Audio Input is set to "None".
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Insert11.jpg

In the 2nd Screenshot, when I change it to my Soundcard's available input option, you see that I still get no sound in the audio track. I can probably get sound to the Audio track if I configure my Soundcard's DSP Software to work correctly with SONAR, But we shall scrap that for now and worry about other things.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Insert13.jpg

In the last screenshot, you can see meter activity in the audio track. This is possible when I set the audio input option to match that of the Audio track created via "Insert -> Soft Synths"; namely that option is "Symphonic ChoirsVST 1 Primary Out: Stereo". These are to show you that there is a simpler and less hassle-free way of setting up MIDI and Audio tracks.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Insert12.jpg

NOW. On to the crunch!

First, could you try instantiating your Kontakt + EWQLSC VST instruments like this:
Insert -> Soft Synths -> *Choose Instrument*. A popup window should open titled "Insert Soft Synth Options". Referring to the image below, make sure you tick "MIDI Source" and "First Synth Audio Output". This will create a MIDI track and Audio track correctly configured to receive data from each other, as well as insert the Virtual instrument into your project.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Insert1.jpg

** If the popup window does NOT appear when you insert a soft synth, you will need to open up the Synth Rack View and find the Insert Soft Synths Options icon to bring up the window. (I am not sure if the current icon differs from older versions of SONAR, but you should be able to find it.) Make sure the "Ask this every time" option is ticked.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/ISSO.jpg

Now; if you are using a single instance of Kontakt but with multiple MIDI tracks routed to that instance, you can instead select "All Synth Audio Outputs: Stereo". This will create 1 MIDI track but up to as many discrete outputs the VI can support (E.G. 8 outputs for Kompakt). In the screenshot below, I have created just that; 8 Audio Tracks each routed to Kompakt's 8 Audio outputs and 1 MIDI track for RA.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Insert2.jpg

Try entering some MIDI data into your tracks now and see if the sounds comes out as per normal when you playback your project. Let me know if everything is ok and I shall continue with my little tutorial. :)

malcolmb
06-14-2008, 06:52 AM
Persentio

Home Studio 2004 seems to be a bit less advanced than your Sonar (not surprising!). What I have done is:

Insert – DXi Synth – NI – KontaktPlayer2

(before this in Insert DXi Synth Options, I ticked the box for ask this every time. I do not have an All Synth Audio Outputs Stereo option and therefore left the “first Synth Output (Audio) option ticked (I did try the only other option I do have of All Synth Output (Audio) but this created 28 Kontakt players!)).

I have added one GPO instrument to the Kontakt Player (a flute).

So, I now have a project with one midi track and one Kontakt Player track. I put some notes on the midi track and it works fine.

Is this OK?

Malcolm

persentio
06-14-2008, 07:38 AM
Yup; that's fine (odd about the 28 tracks though... Unless Kontakt supports 28 outputs? I don't know. Let's scrap that for now ;) )

Ok now first you have to locate your Audio track's digital volume meter / controller. In the screenshot below I have circled them in the Track view as well as in the Console view.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Auto1.jpg

Next, Right-Click on the meter. You should see a variety of options. Look for "Automation Read Enable" and "Automation Write Enable". (These terms probably differ in Home Studio 4; let me know if you can't find them and I will look it up for you) By default, Automation Read should be enabled (you should see a little tick beside it). Now click on "Automation Write Enable". The volume meter should be highlighted in Red indicating it is armed for Automation recording. In the bottom of the screen a red "AUTO" button should also appear to indicate that Automation recording has been enabled somewhere.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Auto2.jpg

Now. Hit PLAY in SONAR (Not Record). Have your mouse at the ready over the volume meter. When the time comes where you wish to adjust the volume simply move the fader by the desired amount as you would normally do I presume. A red area with nodes appears indicating that the volume fader's movements have been recorded in real time.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Auto3.jpg

After you are done, you should now have an 'Envelope' in your audio track. This corresponds currently to your audio track's volume automation data. When you play back your track now, notice that the fader follows the exact directions you made it follow while recording it. (refer to the screenshots; the volume meter changes and I have already disarmed the meter for Automation recording). If you are unhappy with the results, simply Undo the recording and do another take.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Auto4.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Auto5.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/gaern88/Auto6.jpg

When you are happy, Right-Click on the track's volume fader and click on "Automation Write Enable" again to disable it. The tick should vanish and so do the Red indicators. This is to prevent you from making unwanted mistakes to your recordings.

And that's it! You can now do the same for all your Audio tracks without needing to record the WHOLE performance in real time over again to make the volume changes. Also, this is a much easier and hassle-free way to do it. Hope it works for you and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions! :)

malcolmb
06-14-2008, 11:26 AM
Persentio

I can say without reservation, that is absolutely stunning. Although as you suspected, the buttons in my somewhat ancient HomeStudio 2004 are a bit different, I was easily able to work it through with your brilliant guide. It really does make me appreciate how much more there is in Sonar to explore (and that it’s about time I upgraded!). Adding your wonderful guide to the kind help from Thomas and I now have the AP192 working just fine.

My sincere thanks to you and again to Thomas for all your efforts in getting me up and working. Truly appreciated.
:)
Very Best Regards
Malcolm