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matthew82475
05-24-2005, 04:15 PM
The demos are okay, but I don't think they live up to the hype. It's true that they weren't mixed very well and they all sound pretty similar. The orchestration is way too dominant. In regard to Liam's comment about choirs who slur their words, you're right, but only because most choirs aren't very skilled. If you listen to some of the top choirs, the sloppy diction doesn't happen.

Most importantly, the biggest and most obvious reason for the diction problems is the placement of the consonants. Unlike orchestral music where an articulation sound (lip blast, violin scratch, organ chiff, etc.) occurs on the beat the note is to sound. In choral music consonants should precede the vowels they are connected to and the vowels should be begin on the notes they are assigned. For example in the word "dictus" the "d" sound the "ct" sound should come just before the note that the "i" and the "u" sounds are assigned to. That, unquestionably, needs to be a standard part of the software. That alone would improve the diction remarkably.

Like loogoo, I've been involved with choral music all my life. I've written hundreds of choral pieces and I'd be happy to work with the software developers, if there's an interest, to refine the software to make it as excellent as it has the potential to be. I look forward to witnessing the continual development of this impressive achievement.

Matt

Evan
05-24-2005, 04:20 PM
I would like to hear some true Choral Music done with it..Like Eric Whitacres "Cloudburst" or "sleep".

Doug Rogers
05-24-2005, 04:44 PM
I would like to listen to a demo consisting clear consonants.
In the existing demos female voices are very weak with consonants.
Could it be possible to have a demo without instruments, having
a single pitch just READING some text? LG

Did you listen to "Glory to the Knight"?

- Doug

RickD
05-24-2005, 06:25 PM
....
PS, I've been looking for the justification to murder an ageing, rich and childless relative for some time........ :D :eek:

Hello Hardy,
If you said that in america you would be arrested, joke or not! If I was you I'd erase that comment in a new york minute! :eek:

Rick

Evan
05-24-2005, 06:57 PM
Hello Hardy,
If you said that in america you would be arrested, joke or not! If I was you I'd erase that comment in a new york minute! :eek:

Rick

eh its all right ;)

ChrisE
05-24-2005, 08:06 PM
Surely Mozart was more of a Composer than a singer? He never claimed to be a distinct singer as far as I know. ;)

As far as I can remember he was actually a professional singer whilst a young boy :) And was later a tenor as an adult

Thomas
05-24-2005, 08:10 PM
Several histories of Mozart say that Wolfgang was almost as good a singer as he was a pianist and composer.

Nick Phoenix
05-24-2005, 08:57 PM
The demos are okay, but I don't think they live up to the hype. It's true that they weren't mixed very well and they all sound pretty similar. The orchestration is way too dominant. In regard to Liam's comment about choirs who slur their words, you're right, but only because most choirs aren't very skilled. If you listen to some of the top choirs, the sloppy diction doesn't happen.

Most importantly, the biggest and most obvious reason for the diction problems is the placement of the consonants. Unlike orchestral music where an articulation sound (lip blast, violin scratch, organ chiff, etc.) occurs on the beat the note is to sound. In choral music consonants should precede the vowels they are connected to and the vowels should be begin on the notes they are assigned. For example in the word "dictus" the "d" sound the "ct" sound should come just before the note that the "i" and the "u" sounds are assigned to. That, unquestionably, needs to be a standard part of the software. That alone would improve the diction remarkably.

Like loogoo, I've been involved with choral music all my life. I've written hundreds of choral pieces and I'd be happy to work with the software developers, if there's an interest, to refine the software to make it as excellent as it has the potential to be. I look forward to witnessing the continual development of this impressive achievement.

Matt


Thanks everybody for the compliments and thanks for all the constructive criticism. As far as the consonants coming before the beat, that's up to you to simply play it that way, because you still play the choir. It's not just programming. I think you might be suprised what kinds of demos pop up in the next 2 months. We are just getting started. I would also love for some people to post some mp3s of good choral examples for us to mock up.

dcoscina
05-24-2005, 09:40 PM
A couple noteworthy choral pieces:

Sam Barber's Agnus Dei (choral version of his Adagio for Strings)
Mozart's Requiem
anything by John Rutter
Ligeti's Requiem (for scary ass music, complete with micropolyphonic textures)
Prokofiev's "Crusaders in Pskov" from Alexander Nevsky
Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible Oratorio

Andrew
05-24-2005, 09:41 PM
As far as I can remember he was actually a professional singer whilst a young boy And was later a tenor as an adult

This is true...and in a recent incarnation he was the origional singer for AC/DC. :D

bigbeats01
05-24-2005, 09:51 PM
in my opinion the demo by M. Schmidt called Libera Me is the best sounding and does the library tne most justice. All of them good as well. Big ups to M.Schmidt.

dubaifox
05-25-2005, 12:04 AM
I second the Eric Whitacre recommendation "Cloudburst" or "Sleep"

AMAZING MUSIC!!!

Might have some copyright problems though.....

MarcD
05-25-2005, 12:29 AM
William Byrd's "Ave verum corpus"

synergy543
05-25-2005, 01:07 AM
I would also love for some people to post some mp3s of good choral examples for us to mock up.Nick,

Morton Lauridisen's Lux Aeterna is one of the most lovely choral works I've ever heard. I would consider it a superb reference for choral works and a great example of the type of work that would be uniquely different from any of the existing demos.

The examples on Amazon unfortnately get cut off rather quickly and don't do this work justice. However, try listening to number 3. O Nata Lux:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000006OF1/vi2web/103-6643097-3673441

This is truly both an inspiring and a stunning work. A demo such as this could show how the library can breath and flow with human expression.

Thomas
05-25-2005, 01:34 AM
I just got a chance to listen to the demos, and it is obvious that there is a lot of potential here. I wish there were more a cappella demos, or at least some with lighter accompaniment. Perhaps a few with just piano accompaniment would be nice too. The two demos which interest me the most are “Dante’s Dream”, because it is unaccompanied, and “Glory to the Knight”, because the words are in English and much clearer than the other examples. I wonder why Dante’s Dream only has separate female and male choirs, and not a section with the full SATB? It would be nice to hear a complete mixed choir, a cappella, at a soft volume.

Anyway, I am sure that more demos are coming soon, and I look forward to Nick’s offer to demonstrate the word building features in another example.

My initial reaction, especially listening to Dante’s Dream, was the lack of breathing. Does the library have breath samples? What sounded most unnatural to my ears was that phrases lasted too long for singers to just keep singing note after note. Of course a big choir can use “staggered breathing” which means that there is no place where the whole choir takes a breath, but in a piece like Dante’s Dream it would be nice for there to be more space between phrases, and to hear a little breath to make it more human. I especially would have liked a breath at the beginning of the piece and also just before the men’s first entry, for example. The silence just before the men’s entry and the sudden attack of their first note sounds odd. Another unnatural phrase is the women’s line from .23 to .50 which has no breath or break whatsoever.

I imagine that if there are no breath samples to put in between phrases, there will be a tendency to make notes run into each other, because complete silence between words might sound worse, particualrly when unaccompanied. But this will make it less human, in my opinion.

If the library has breath samples, it would be nice to hear them incorporated into some demos. If it does not, let me know, and I will sample some different length choir breaths from a cappella recordings that I have made myself, so I am ready to use them when the library arrives.

Looking forward to working with the library.

Markus S
05-25-2005, 03:28 AM
in my opinion the demo by M. Schmidt called Libera Me is the best sounding and does the library tne most justice. All of them good as well. Big ups to M.Schmidt.
Glad you enjoyed it -- Thank you very much!

Neilfactory
05-25-2005, 03:46 AM
I think you might be suprised what kinds of demos pop up in the next 2 months.
Yes and re-yes.


Neil.

Markus S
05-25-2005, 05:56 AM
Also, can one do melismas with the choir - hold a syllable over an entire phrase. If so, how do you achieve a smooth legato effect? Sorry, but I did not get much of a sense of this from the demos.

Yes, this is not a problem : You have to enter in the word builer, i. ex. Sa a a a a a a a ctu S. and you will be able to do a melisma on a. The legato effect comes in some melisma by itself (a connects very well, i ex)in others you will have to tweak a bit (e, i ex I believe), but nothing impossible. There also is the legato mod (you can decide for each sample if it will be played staccato, normal legato). So you can define all the a's as legato.

First of all, I think the demos sound excellent - but my experience has been that about 90% of the choral repertoire does not consist of the epic/apocalyptic type of music. That said, I'd like to know if you feel that the Symphonic Choir is capable of doing musical lines that are more polyphonic and horizontal in nature, not so many big block chords.


The choir can sing more horizontal compositions, the realism of the choir depends on your "midi tweaking" abilities, I am sure you can get a most realistic result if you invest the effort necessary.

About the choir repertory -- you are right, of course, but it depends on the context : in commercial productions you will mostly find the choir associated to "epic", "huge" and massive writing, the more contrapunctual writing would here be rather the exception.

Markus S
05-25-2005, 05:59 AM
Most importantly, the biggest and most obvious reason for the diction problems is the placement of the consonants. Unlike orchestral music where an articulation sound (lip blast, violin scratch, organ chiff, etc.) occurs on the beat the note is to sound. In choral music consonants should precede the vowels they are connected to and the vowels should be begin on the notes they are assigned. For example in the word "dictus" the "d" sound the "ct" sound should come just before the note that the "i" and the "u" sounds are assigned to. That, unquestionably, needs to be a standard part of the software. That alone would improve the diction remarkably.

Thanks, this is a great and useful observation! We'll have to learn how you really place each consonant and vowel in a musical phrase. I can tell as far as I used the tool for now that you can place each consonant and vowel individually, so everything should be possible..

banquo
05-25-2005, 06:14 AM
Any chance of seeing a list of articulations?

Beach
05-25-2005, 06:34 AM
Any chance of seeing a list of articulations?

Also for me...
(I have already asked this). :o

Roberto

Tower
05-25-2005, 06:42 AM
What about very slow legato using just one wowel patch,no words...

Would it work? I remember Nick saying that the legato in this one is done with some sort of very short slides?

Can enyone elaborate?

Tower

Neilfactory
05-25-2005, 07:06 AM
the realism of the choir depends on your "midi tweaking" abilities
Absolutely, like Symphonics instruments, composition in general.


Neil.

matthew82475
05-25-2005, 07:25 AM
Thanks, this is a great and useful observation! We'll have to learn how you really place each consonant and vowel in a musical phrase. I can tell as far as I used the tool for now that you can place each consonant and vowel individually, so everything should be possible..

When I clinic choirs, I usually begin with a reminder that in most languages, but especially English, we sing vowels, not consonants. So, think of a musical phrase without the consonants first. That will give you the placement of vowels in respect to the musical line. Then add the consonants, just before each note to whcih they are assigned. It provides for clearer diction and avoids the "ttttttt" or "ssssss" that is so common among amateur choirs. This technique also holds true with closing consonants, which means that a closing consonant should sound just as a note is ending. Or to think of it another way, imagine that something was to come after the closing consonant and put that closing consonant sound where you normally would, even though there isn't anything following it.

In regard to good mockups. In general, anything by the Bob Shaw Chorale or the Pacific Chorale will give you a good starting point for the highest quality choral singing. Both choirs are very large and have excellent choral technique. As far as individual pieces go, try Bernstein's Chichester Psalms. It is a very heavily articulated piece, which would give you a lot of opportunity to work with your consonants to get them to sound good. The Pacific Chorale has a good recording they did in a large cathedral in Estonia with the Estonian National Symphony Orchestra. The biggest weakness in the recording is the counter-tenor in the second movement, so just try to forgive that. This recording would also give you on opportunity to try and simulate the acoustics of a large space for both choir and orchestra.

I hope this is helpful and useful. Best wishes to the bold designers working with this new concept.

Matt

ellios
05-25-2005, 07:48 AM
I have just purchased the library and I offer to post a few examples from the french choral litterature sometime later this summer (Ravel's Trois Chansons; in particular Ronde, etc... and maybe a little Bach too if time permits or some Early Baroque) Being a film/tv composer in my community and having been part of choirs first as a boy than later as a conductor, I see and hear a lot of potential in this library. I await anxiously to receive the DVDs and star working with the library.

Good work everybody!

jphilpit
05-25-2005, 08:46 AM
You have to enter in the word builer, i. ex. Sa a a a a a a a ctu S. and you will be able to do a melisma on a.

While you can do a melisma that way, there is also a MIDI event you can send that tells WordBuilder not to advance the syllable cursor to the next syllable until the countermanding MIDI event is sent.

The WordBuilder software gives you amazing control over every aspect of the enunciations.

Doug Rogers
05-25-2005, 08:57 AM
Some general observations about some of the comments here without responding to each one individually -

(1) The WordBuilder software has all of the features you mention are necessary to construct realistic sounding words and lines. The software has actually been developed over many years, since Voices of the Apocalypse was released - but this version is far more advanced (and MAC/PC compatible) and of course the choirs were recently recorded by Prof. Keith O. Johnson (who also recorded Symphonic Orchestra) in the same hall with the 3 mic positions as EWQLSO Platinum.

(2) Symphonic Choirs/WordBuilder is an instrument you have to learn. You interact with WordBuilder to tell the library what you want it to do, nothing happens automatically. Like any instrument, the more you use it, the more skilled you get with it, and the manual goes into great detail about all of the tools that are included to change virtually anything to your liking (we are producing video tutorials also).

(3) Listen to a good example of the WordBuilder at work such as "Glory to the Knight" and remember "no choir actually sung this", it's completely computer generated. Even Anton's parents who are both opera singers couldn't believe their ears! We believe this is breakthrough technology in achieving realistic sung vocals with software, nothing else can do this that we're aware of to this level of quality.

(4) We do not agree that "90% of the choral repertoire does not consist of the epic/apocalyptic type of music". Here in Hollywood, most of the paying work is epic/apocalyptic type of music.

(5) With regards to the above comment, the library also has a soft side to it. With Symphonic Orchestra the close mics were mainly used for spot micing, with Symphonic Choirs you can use these for more intimate vocals (we need to show this more in future demos). The full (stage) mics will give you more of a Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody" type of sound (listen to the "Hymn" demo after the piano intro and imagine this tracked up). The hall mics provide the large concert hall sound.

(6) Composers who invest the time to learn this "instrument" will have choirs that can sing anything at their disposal 24/7. That has to give you a powerful advantage.

We're really looking forward to hearing what our customers do with Symphonic Choirs over time, I'm sure some of the work produced with it will scare a lot of people!

Special thanks also to those that listened to the demos and voted with their credit cards. We took more pre-orders for this product in the last 24 hours than any other product in EASTWEST history!

A reminder though, the pre-order discount (which will save you $300) ends next week when the product will ship.

- Doug

jc5
05-25-2005, 09:39 AM
A point of curiosity - is the pre-order discount only available when ordering from Soundsonline directly, or can it also be had ordering from local shop?

Doug Rogers
05-25-2005, 09:43 AM
A point of curiosity - is the pre-order discount only available when ordering from Soundsonline directly, or can it also be had ordering from local shop?

I don't know if stores have it, you could email sales@eastwestsounds.com and ask. I know some distributors have it.

- Doug

Drew Buchan
05-25-2005, 09:50 AM
Where in the software chain does the word builder sit ? (From the style of it, it looks like it was developed by NI for you).

- Is it a MIDI effect ? Does it sit in a modi effect slot ?
- Is part of the player, ie a pop-up window, and fully integrated into the player ?
- Or is it a standalone app that needs to be midi-yoked ? (similar to the VSL performance tool ?)

Markus S
05-25-2005, 10:15 AM
- Is it a MIDI effect ? Does it sit in a modi effect slot ?

- Or is it a standalone app that needs to be midi-yoked ? (similar to the VSL performance tool ?)

Both is possible. Easiest way is to use it as a midi effect (in the midi effect slot).

Doug Rogers
05-25-2005, 10:21 AM
(From the style of it, it looks like it was developed by NI for you)

No, WordBuilder is not NI software, it's ours.

- Doug

Drew Buchan
05-25-2005, 10:34 AM
OT: Every time a new sample library comes out, no matter what the instrument, no matter who the developer, there are always (ALWAYS) posts along the lines of ....

As player of X years of the (insert appropriate instrument name) I can tell you this doesn't fool me for a minute. It sounds (choose from: terrible, awful, too wet, too dry, too loud, too quiet, too hollywood, too thin, too fat). I played it to my (choose from: spouse, aunt, uncle, dad, mum, dog, cat, imaginary friend, high flying studio-wife) and they weren't fooled either. If a musician performed that for me in my (choose from: studio, church, concert hall, school, bedroom, shed) then I would (choose from: ask them to leave, fire them, shoot them, sue them, feint, throw up, commit harikiri). If anyone thinks this sounds real they probably haven't (choose from: studied at a conservetoire, ever heard a reall XXX, removed the cotton wool from their ears, got decent monitors, a right to an opinion of their own) ..... IMHO. I'm going to wait and save up (choose from: to record my own custom library, hire a virtuoso, hire an orchesta, play it myself, ask the dog to play it, wait for the library that was announced three years ago by the other company, and is bound to be much better .... though we haven't heard much since the orginal announcement).


and then to counter this there will be ....

Hey dude, (choose from: congrats, it rocks, it raaawwwcks, its awesome, its the best, its monophonic glorious, its cheap at twice the price). Are there plans to release it (choose from: in 5.1, 24bit, 16bit, 8bit, dry, wet, damp, 3 microphones, 1 microphone, no microphones, downloadable, at a discount to students, at a discount to loyal customers, a freebie to potential customers, a group buy). This is going to the top of my (choose from: shopping list, wish list, wife's birthday list, repossesion order). Good luck and I love all your libraries (please, please, please say something nice about mine and help me through a bit of a sales slump).



.... just teasing

Stefan Podell
05-25-2005, 10:38 AM
OT: Every time a new sample library comes out, no matter what the instrument, no matter who the developer, there are always (ALWAYS) posts along the lines of ....

I nominate this for post of the month....

IvanP
05-25-2005, 10:48 AM
A reminder though, the pre-order discount (which will save you $300) ends next week when the product will ship.

- Doug

But the bundles offer including the Pro upgrades won't end till Pro is released right? :)

LHall
05-25-2005, 10:57 AM
I nominate this for post of the month....

Second! :D

esteso
05-25-2005, 11:32 AM
(yes, this is one of those posts)

I want to congratulate Nick and Doug and the whole team who have made this possible. I believe it is a stunning achievement. As Doug says, it will only get better with time. I simply cannot believe what I'm able to do in the comfort of my own studio these days. There is no question that I'm now limited only by my own creativity, motivation, focus and time..... Oh yeah, there's the money thing too.

Bring it on!

Doug Rogers
05-25-2005, 11:43 AM
But the bundles offer including the Pro upgrades won't end till Pro is released right? :)

Correct - only the Symphonic Choirs pre-order will end when it's released next week. The bundles that include Symphonic Choirs and the Pro Upgrades will be available until the Pro Upgrades are released.

- Doug

sugar hari
05-25-2005, 01:35 PM
Absolutely gorgeous library. About midway through the demos, an old proverb came to mind: Patience is bitter, but the fruit is sweet. Ah, the purity and power of the human voice - somewhere vaaaary near ... Cherubim are blushing, Seraphim are trying to register with East West and Archangels are checking system requirements and processor speeds.

For mock-ups - here's a ( http://www.a-cappella.com/catalog/cat_classical.html ) splash-page from Acappella that leads to selected regions of (Choirs) MP3s. Most albums have a "Listen to Sound Files" link - Example: O Magnum Mysterium (http://www.a-cappella.com/catalog/file/17722/amabile-02-magnum.mp3) ...... et admirabile sacramentum.

Also, Morton Lauridisen's Lux Aeterna (@ Amazon.com) - stunning, so beautiful. I'll just start putting classical CDs and installation discs on our dinner plates and see if he notices. "Darling, would you like some quick staccatos with your Viennese cymbals? Oh, and save room for dessert; we're having vowels with an extra dollop of slurred legato." Man does not live by bread alone!

Much gratitude to Everyone involved with the "seed, root and blossom" of this project.

AndyFinkenstadt
05-25-2005, 01:42 PM
On the same web page :),

http://www.a-cappella.com/catalog/barbershop/choruses-men-/p_4992c.html

http://www.a-cappella.com/catalog/barbershop/choruses-men-/p_4984c.html

http://www.a-cappella.com/catalog/barbershop/choruses-men-/p_4983c.html

http://www.a-cappella.com/catalog/barbershop/choruses-men-/p_4991c.html

, the Chorus I am a member of, a 160-man barbershop chorus.

That's the sound I want to aim for. It might take me a year of practice with wordbuilder before I can get there, though. (I say that because I haven't used it yet, and my music creation time is very restricted at the moment.)

chocothrax
05-25-2005, 01:49 PM
I would also love for some people to post some mp3s of good choral examples for us to mock up.

Short lo-fi clip of the cue I want to hear mocked up. :) http://www.content.loudeye.com/scripts/hurl.exe?clipid=000079001070006900&cid=600111

dkcycovery
05-25-2005, 02:07 PM
I would also love for some people to post some mp3s of good choral examples for us to mock up.

certainly highly challenging for a solo voice would be Liber Scriptus from Verdi's Requiem (and I guess it would push the library to if not beyond its limits, without wanting to accuse the creators ;) - but I'm also one of those who can't fully join the hype about this library, even if it's certainly a product of very high quality. but without adding IR-1 or similar halls, I found most of the demos not ultimately realistic..)

nick: I think, as a composer and a musician, you surely know the piece - if not, I can send a you a recording per E-Mail...

Moonchilde
05-25-2005, 03:37 PM
Ralph Vaughn Williams' Beat! Beat! Beat! Drums!

Don't ask me what they're saying!

jamriding
05-25-2005, 04:11 PM
(4) We do not agree that "90% of the choral repertoire does not consist of the epic/apocalyptic type of music". Here in Hollywood, most of the paying work is epic/apocalyptic type of music. Who is going to pay you to mockup Mozart, and for what purpose?

- Doug

Well, I do, for a start... Suppose you had some music, say from the Renaissance or Baroque, which hadn't been heard literally for centuries, and you had an opportunity to "recreate" that music, however imprecisely, using the Symphonic Choir Demos.

Would that not be a better use of one's time and expertise than futile meanderings of meaningless drivel, where the only criterion is how many "fff's" you can get for your buck???

I refer to a post in the Northern Sounds forum, where I said:-

"And I thought that I was the only one who was underwhelmed!

Whatever happened to the Mozart Ave Verum Corpus demo as listed last night on EastWest/Soundonline forum? Was it really SO bad that they withdrew it???

What would REALLY be interesting if someone could do a demo of an a capella renaissance work say by Lassus or Palestrina: that would really see if it is worth a thousand dollars..."

loogoo
05-25-2005, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Doug Rogers
(4) We do not agree that "90% of the choral repertoire does not consist of the epic/apocalyptic type of music". Here in Hollywood, most of the paying work is epic/apocalyptic type of music. Who is going to pay you to mockup Mozart, and for what purpose?

- Doug

Sorry, I guess I didn't realize that making music was all about being "paid". And as to my question about the library being able to handle smaller-scale work (not necessarily Mozart, thank you) - I'll take your response as a "No".

Thomas
05-25-2005, 04:54 PM
Whatever happened to the Mozart Ave Verum Corpus demo as listed last night on EastWest/Soundonline forum? Was it really SO bad that they withdrew it???

It is pretty obvious why the Ave Verum was removed. It sounded more like a work in progress, and was not yet very good, - very synthetic sounding - and didn't even include the full SATB Mozart score. I think it was probably just done too quickly, rather than being an indictment of the abilities of the program to produce such music realistically. I am still hoping to hear better examples of similiar musical styles. I assume that in order to produce unaccompanied or lightly accompanied choral music with clear words takes a little more time than what has been available thus far to the demo producers. I expect that user demos will gradually reveal the full potential of the program.

How realistic it will be in all the styles people want remains to be heard.

PS - will a reworked version of Ave Verum be reposted? (preferably with all four parts?)

Tower
05-25-2005, 05:01 PM
Slow legato and portamento without words or phrases.........someone please elaborate....

Tow

Toxikator
05-25-2005, 07:05 PM
I'd like to hear one demo that makes use of the weirder features; like if you played 9 or 10 chromatic notes to get a chant, or using the whisper setting.

And I posted this in another thread, but this is probably more frequently checked:

I think some of the unnatural-ness of the demos comes from a lack of inhaling. Can the choir inhale?

EDIT: "The Secret" has the whisper, which sounds AWESOME BTW.
Still listening for an inhale, though...

Pi_314
05-25-2005, 07:32 PM
I decided to buy, mostly because I don't have any chior sounds to speak of. Lets call this a good starter. ;)

Something tells me that instead of making this sound real, I'll be making it sound cool. Whatever works within a tune gets my vote. If that means distorting oooooolala ..... so be it. How often do you get the use of a large chior where you can make it sound like your choking them. :D

Can't wait for June 2nd or 3rd to arrive.

Can't wait to get my hands around their necks, for making me stare at the eye, while saroman was watching.

LHall
05-25-2005, 08:16 PM
It is pretty obvious why the Ave Verum was removed. It sounded more like a work in progress, and was not yet very good, - very synthetic sounding - and didn't even include the full SATB Mozart score. I think it was probably just done too quickly, rather than being an indictment of the abilities of the program to produce such music realistically. I am still hoping to hear better examples of similiar musical styles. I assume that in order to produce unaccompanied or lightly accompanied choral music with clear words takes a little more time than what has been available thus far to the demo producers. I expect that user demos will gradually reveal the full potential of the program.

How realistic it will be in all the styles people want remains to be heard.

PS - will a reworked version of Ave Verum be reposted? (preferably with all four parts?)

Thomas,

Thanks for asking about my Ave Verum demo. I am reworking it after several folks pointed out that it could be better and I agreed. The SO and WordBuilder are fantastic tools, but do take a bit of learning. The more you work with it, the better you get. I think you'll find that the reworked version will be a better representation.

It will not be presented, at least by me, in four parts. The orchestration is my own and based on work I did for a recording of sacred works by tenor Stuart Neill. The choral arrangement is mine as well and is for boy's choir - which is the part of the library you will be hearing.

Thank you,
L Hall

Nick Phoenix
05-25-2005, 09:42 PM
And as to my question about the library being able to handle smaller-scale work (not necessarily Mozart, thank you) - I'll take your response as a "No".

If you listen to all of the demos carefully, you can hear that EWQLSC is very capable of soft. Just because the whole song isn't soft, doesn't mean it can't do it, right??

Doug Rogers
05-25-2005, 11:27 PM
We will address your specific requests in the video tutorial we are producing, so you can hear them demonstrated clearly, and learn the techniques involved.

We'll let you know soon when this will be available.

- Doug

lgrohn
05-25-2005, 11:37 PM
Great !

PS.
I have ordered Choir months ago from the local distributer. He is claiming that
he can't give any price reductions...

Doug Rogers
05-25-2005, 11:44 PM
Great !

PS.
I have ordered Choir months ago from the local distributer. He is claiming that
he can't give any price reductions...

Who is your local distributor?

- Doug

lgrohn
05-26-2005, 12:06 AM
Carbon's Music Oy:

http://www.carbonmusic.fi/engine.cgi?sivu=etusivu&paaryhma=etusivu&luokka=etusivu&alaryhma=

Drew Buchan
05-26-2005, 06:47 AM
So what specification PC did the demo makers require ?
Did you need a dedicated PC ?
How many sections of the choir were you able to load up simulteously ?
What was your typical workflow ?

thanks for any insights

janila
05-26-2005, 07:54 AM
Carbon's Music Oy:

http://www.carbonmusic.fi/engine.cgi?sivu=etusivu&paaryhma=etusivu&luokka=etusivu&alaryhma=Thomann (http://www.thomann.de/thoiw3_artikel-179644.html) has a price of 777 Euros for EWQLSC when delivered to Finland. Delivery is something like 20 Euros so you can get a lot lower than 919 € and the product is delivered to the nearest post office.

Why don't you order from Soundsonline? With the weak dollar you can get it even cheaper.

wardran
05-26-2005, 08:39 AM
after listing to the demos over and over again, i can hardly wait to get my copy between my hands. i was also wondering if there is any chance of the library shipping earlier than 31. ? (lets say tomorrow? :D :D )

RickD
05-26-2005, 08:45 AM
Thomann (http://www.thomann.de/thoiw3_artikel-179644.html) has a price of 777 Euros for EWQLSC when delivered to Finland. Delivery is something like 20 Euros so you can get a lot lower than 919 € and the product is delivered to the nearest post office.

Why don't you order from Soundsonline? With the weak dollar you can get it even cheaper.

Can the choir do bouncy, i.e."Battle Hymn of the Republic" a 4/4 (repeated) dotted eighth -16th march type of music?

You've accomplished a lot there congrats on the finished product.

Rick

Gamma
05-26-2005, 09:38 AM
Can the choir do bouncy, i.e."Battle Hymn of the Republic" a 4/4 (repeated) dotted eighth -16th march type of music?

Also, is there an option to do pitchless, speaking, yelling etc. (a la Hip-Hop) parts?
I other words, are there "pitcheless" samples in the SC library?

Nick Phoenix
05-26-2005, 10:52 AM
yes and yes

Scott Rogers
05-26-2005, 10:57 AM
Can anyone tell me which, if any, of these demos employs a fair amount of choral writing that meets all or most of the following criteria?

1) Polyphonic texture
2) Melismatic singing
3) Soft, non vibrato (even sotto voce)
4) A cappella, or with just light/thin, unobtrusive orchestral support

This type of choral writing is fairly common and fundamental (outside of Hollywood, that is), and it is not rare, esoteric, idiosyncratic, or in any way antiquated (outside of Hollywood, that is).

I don't have time to go through all of the demos again and I don't remember coming across anything remotely like this. All I remember is that with just a few exceptions, nearly everything was far too heavily orchestrated and over-reliant on chordal texture to qualify as competent choral writing. Sorry, but it's true (the few exceptions noted). I don't know if this was done to mask some of the more obvious problems with the library, or if there is another explanation for this unfortunate approach. And the only a cappella piece I remember coming across was "Dante's Dream", and it was entirely in a block-chordal texture, which is fine as far as it goes, but doesn't address the very important issue of choral polyphony.

I'd really like to hear some true choral writing with this library if possible, so that I can determine if it has a much wider range of expression than what I have heard so far.

Thanks.

Thomas
05-26-2005, 11:15 AM
While there are scattered instances of melissma, polyphony and soft singing in several different demos (even if not predominantly featured) - there is really only one instance of pure a cappella singing, "Dante's Dream." But even Dante's Dream does not have any section where all four parts (SATB) are singing at one time. Therefore we still do not have a single example of SC on a standard SATB a cappella piece yet. The reluctance of the demo writers to set four parts of mixed voices into an exposed arrangement is dissapointing. Not only did Dante's Dream avoid this, but the Ave Verum by Mozart was re-arranged to eliminate the original 4-part setting. Of course, we will surely get some demos of 4-part a cappella, because the release is soon, and lots of writers are preparing to put this kind of material up.

In my opinion, not counting the quality of the compositions, the two demos that are most exciting to me are Dante's Dream and Glory to the Knight, because they show some of the potential of the program's expressive capabilities - one being a cappella and the other having clear English lyrics.

jloeb
05-26-2005, 11:52 AM
Congratulations on the product guys!
It's got potential for sure, but at least as used in the demos so far, there is a glaring issue: namely, that the transitions between syllables do not appear to be scaleable in time. On a slower piece, a real choir would transition between phonemes in a more langorous way, giving the phrase a natural sense of pacing and line. Here, since the transitions can't be stretched (apparently), the words give the impression of marching along in a robotic manner heedless of the tempo of what's being sung.

So a question for Nick/Doug/demo composers: is there a way to work around this by filling in the sounds-between-the-sounds on a slow transition? For instance a slow "qua" might be kuuuwwwooaa as opposed to kwa. Seems like a tortuous process (if it's possible), which may be why it wasn't done in the demos.

I hope it's something that can be dealt with in a future release, because although there is an organic ebb and flow to a real choir that a sample library will never nail, to me the biggest giveaway upon listening to the demos was that absolute uniformity of the pace of pronunciation. That's at the top of the list of what makes it sound artificial. As far as dynamic shaping, it seems to me that you did some great work on recording dynamics and the crossfades sound decent, so i think that in the right hands the dynamic flow can (and in many cases does) sound quite good - but if the choir is still pronouncing a largo phrase as if it were being sung presto, the dynamic shaping can never paper over that disconnect. Might a future version take into account tempo in modelling transitions as compounds of rapidly transiting phonemes? Or can this already potentially be dealt with as discussed above with skilled use of the word builder?

thanks,
jonny

Andrew
05-26-2005, 01:04 PM
is there a way to work around this by filling in the sounds-between-the-sounds on a slow transition? For instance a slow "qua" might be kuuuwwwooaa as opposed to kwa.

~Melodyne~

jloeb
05-26-2005, 01:58 PM
>>>~Melodyne~

That's another $700. :(

Dave Bourke
05-26-2005, 02:32 PM
>>>~Melodyne~

That's another $700. :(
Not necessarily. There's also Melodyne Cre8 (eight tracks) and Melodyne Uno (one track).

Kind regards.

Toxikator
05-26-2005, 02:52 PM
So a question for Nick/Doug/demo composers: is there a way to work around this by filling in the sounds-between-the-sounds on a slow transition? For instance a slow "qua" might be kuuuwwwooaa as opposed to kwa. Seems like a tortuous process (if it's possible), which may be why it wasn't done in the demos.

Absolutely. take a look at the wordbuilder screenshot: each syllable can be broken down in sample lengths (by ms) and each sound is looped indefinitely (even consenants).
Therefore Qua -> kuuuuuuuwwwwooooaaaaa is a matter simply of stretching the length of each vowel to the desired length. You will of course have to do this by hand (so it may be some guess and check) but it can definitely be done, and totally customized to tempo and style.

Daryl
05-26-2005, 02:55 PM
I would quite like to hear "Glory to the Knight" without the orchestra. Any chance of this?

Daryl

jloeb
05-26-2005, 02:56 PM
>>Not necessarily. There's also Melodyne Cre8 (eight tracks) and Melodyne Uno (one track).

Good to know, but it's still $700 unless you want to convert to mono, which would obviously defeat the purpose of having a stereo library.

Toxicator: You're right about the screenshot. Looks hopeful. I'd still like to hear from the SoundsOnline folks, or someone who has used the Choirs with regard to the issues discussed though. How feasible is the workaround being proposed (i.e. how good can it sound)?

Toxikator
05-26-2005, 02:57 PM
Can anyone tell me which, if any, of these demos employs a fair amount of choral writing that meets all or most of the following criteria?

1) Polyphonic texture
2) Melismatic singing
3) Soft, non vibrato (even sotto voce)
4) A cappella, or with just light/thin, unobtrusive orchestral support


If I remember correctly, the song "hymn" does (though to be honest I have no idea what Melismatic singing is)

Scott Rogers
05-26-2005, 03:07 PM
Toxikator, thanks for the reply.

"Hymn" doesn't do what I'm talking about.

jphilpit
05-26-2005, 04:08 PM
There is a glaring issue: namely, that the transitions between syllables do not appear to be scaleable in time. On a slower piece, a real choir would transition between phonemes in a more langorous way, giving the phrase a natural sense of pacing and line. Here, since the transitions can't be stretched (apparently), the words give the impression of marching along in a robotic manner heedless of the tempo of what's being sung.


Actually, WordBuilder gives you both automatic control and manual control of those parameters. Once you get the product, read in the 157-page manual about what's called "Learning." WordBuilder can "learn" how long each note in the musical line is, and adjust the starting and ending consonants appropriately. Or at least it can make a best-guess effort at what would sound best. Then you can use manual tweaking (by just dragging with the mouse in a timeline) to get it the way you want it, down to a few milliseconds. You have total control over such parameters to get whatever effect you want (realistic, robotic, langorous, etc).

I think it's premature to make assumptions about what the software can and cannot accomplish on the basis of a dozen examples which fall into only several musical styles. Let's get the software into the hands of hundreds of different types of composers, and give them more than a few weeks to play with beta software which had only an incomplete manual to work from. I bet we'll see lots of demos on this site in the coming months that will surprise us all: including Doug and Nick.

John

Nick Phoenix
05-26-2005, 04:36 PM
Congratulations on the product guys!
It's got potential for sure, but at least as used in the demos so far, there is a glaring issue: namely, that the transitions between syllables do not appear to be scaleable in time. On a slower piece, a real choir would transition between phonemes in a more langorous way, giving the phrase a natural sense of pacing and line. Here, since the transitions can't be stretched (apparently), the words give the impression of marching along in a robotic manner heedless of the tempo of what's being sung.

So a question for Nick/Doug/demo composers: is there a way to work around this by filling in the sounds-between-the-sounds on a slow transition? For instance a slow "qua" might be kuuuwwwooaa as opposed to kwa. Seems like a tortuous process (if it's possible), which may be why it wasn't done in the demos.

I hope it's something that can be dealt with in a future release, because although there is an organic ebb and flow to a real choir that a sample library will never nail, to me the biggest giveaway upon listening to the demos was that absolute uniformity of the pace of pronunciation. That's at the top of the list of what makes it sound artificial. As far as dynamic shaping, it seems to me that you did some great work on recording dynamics and the crossfades sound decent, so i think that in the right hands the dynamic flow can (and in many cases does) sound quite good - but if the choir is still pronouncing a largo phrase as if it were being sung presto, the dynamic shaping can never paper over that disconnect. Might a future version take into account tempo in modelling transitions as compounds of rapidly transiting phonemes? Or can this already potentially be dealt with as discussed above with skilled use of the word builder?

thanks,
jonny

We basically gave the library to a bunch of composers and once we ironed out the software bugs last week, they made some demos. EWQLSC can do MUCH more than this in any tempo or style. As people get the library and get used to the incredibly flexible interface, many demos will emerge. I'm probably the most familiar with the software, but am working 24/7 on the orchestra. We are, however, doing a DVD tutorial which will show many of the exposed things that you are inquiring about.

Scott Rogers
05-26-2005, 04:58 PM
Nick, if it's not too much of a bother, it'd be really swell if you could answer my question. This makes about the fifth time over the last few weeks that a very simple question I have posed to you has gone completely unanswered. I even posted two examples of what I was talking about yesterday after you requested that people do just that, but this also was to no avail, so I took them down after waiting all day for a reply.

Thanks.
Can anyone tell me which, if any, of these demos employs a fair amount of choral writing that meets all or most of the following criteria?

1) Polyphonic texture
2) Melismatic singing
3) Soft, non vibrato (even sotto voce)
4) A cappella, or with just light/thin, unobtrusive orchestral support

This type of choral writing is fairly common and fundamental (outside of Hollywood, that is), and it is not rare, esoteric, idiosyncratic, or in any way antiquated (outside of Hollywood, that is).

I don't have time to go through all of the demos again and I don't remember coming across anything remotely like this. All I remember is that with just a few exceptions, nearly everything was far too heavily orchestrated and over-reliant on chordal texture to qualify as competent choral writing. Sorry, but it's true (the few exceptions noted). I don't know if this was done to mask some of the more obvious problems with the library, or if there is another explanation for this unfortunate approach. And the only a cappella piece I remember coming across was "Dante's Dream", and it was entirely in a block-chordal texture, which is fine as far as it goes, but doesn't address the very important issue of choral polyphony.

I'd really like to hear some true choral writing with this library if possible, so that I can determine if it has a much wider range of expression than what I have heard so far.

Thanks.

MacQ
05-26-2005, 05:09 PM
Scott,

I'm interested in the answers to your questions as well. I asked a while ago about melismatic writing, and I've also been thinking about the polyphonic problem. Having things things like 4-part divisi women, for example, or even 3 part and the differences tonally. Probably not noticeable, but certainly from a balance aspect, it's quite important. Reinforced harmonics with 4 identical "full-choirs" might lead to very real problems. Not to mention the phase issues. But sampling Alto 2, Alto 1, Mezzo, Sop 2, Sop 1, etc, etc ... with all of the available vowels and dynamics, that sounds like it would have been TOO intensive to even attempt. But, perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised!

Still, I guess I should expect "Hollywood" above all else, as that is what this libary is geared to do. Does Hollywood do "subtle"? Or is "Bruckheimer" generally the order of the day? ;)

~MacQ

Doug Rogers
05-26-2005, 06:47 PM
This is what you've done to Nick with your endless list of questions and demo requests...

http://www.soundsonline.com/nickbath.gif

Stefan Podell
05-26-2005, 06:56 PM
LOL!!!! :D

Nick, I recommend you put your wallet somewhere else before you turn on the water. But keep all your clothes on, as long as Doug has the camera out, at least. ;)

- Stefan

chocothrax
05-26-2005, 07:00 PM
Nicks legs look silky smooth, does he shave them? And what soap does he use?

folmann
05-26-2005, 07:27 PM
: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

U sexy MF...

AndyFinkenstadt
05-26-2005, 07:30 PM
And here I thought that was a closet laying on its side and nick coming out of it...

synergy543
05-26-2005, 08:13 PM
Thank goodness....and here I was wondering why it doesn't have a lid! :eek:

So its just RRR....whew.

neoTypic
05-26-2005, 11:28 PM
*laughs* Please, like he wasn't like that before! ;)

IvanP
05-27-2005, 05:17 AM
Is that supposed to be a Coffin or new wave furniture?

SiFi
05-27-2005, 05:55 AM
Does this mean that we get a free Nick in each packaged box of Choirs?

No wonder the shipping is so expensive (not that Nick's overweight)

Neilfactory
05-27-2005, 06:52 AM
Does this mean that we get a free Nick in each packaged box of Choirs?
:D :D :D

How mutch?

RickD
05-27-2005, 08:26 AM
Congratulations on the product guys!
It's got potential for sure, but at least as used in the demos so far, there is a glaring issue: namely, that the transitions between syllables do not appear to be scaleable in time. .......
thanks,
jonny

Sadly I fear until Morphing gets mastered by the masses, your going to have to live with these modern day sample limitations......

Rick

Scott Rogers
05-27-2005, 12:30 PM
Nick, if you don't understand my questions, I'll be glad to explain.

Let me know.

Thanks.

Nick Phoenix
05-27-2005, 06:23 PM
Can anyone tell me which, if any, of these demos employs a fair amount of choral writing that meets all or most of the following criteria?

1) Polyphonic texture
2) Melismatic singing
3) Soft, non vibrato (even sotto voce)
4) A cappella, or with just light/thin, unobtrusive orchestral support

This type of choral writing is fairly common and fundamental (outside of Hollywood, that is), and it is not rare, esoteric, idiosyncratic, or in any way antiquated (outside of Hollywood, that is).

I don't have time to go through all of the demos again and I don't remember coming across anything remotely like this. All I remember is that with just a few exceptions, nearly everything was far too heavily orchestrated and over-reliant on chordal texture to qualify as competent choral writing. Sorry, but it's true (the few exceptions noted). I don't know if this was done to mask some of the more obvious problems with the library, or if there is another explanation for this unfortunate approach. And the only a cappella piece I remember coming across was "Dante's Dream", and it was entirely in a block-chordal texture, which is fine as far as it goes, but doesn't address the very important issue of choral polyphony.

I'd really like to hear some true choral writing with this library if possible, so that I can determine if it has a much wider range of expression than what I have heard so far.

Thanks.

Answer: There is some soft non-vibrato in about half of the demos. My suggestion to you is you wait for more demos that will come later.

Scott Rogers
05-27-2005, 07:00 PM
Nick, what about melismatic singing? Several people have asked about this and we're still in the dark on this issue. Could the choir handle something like the Cum Sancto Spiritu from the Mozart C minor mass, or are we talking about much slower note speeds such as the Fauré examples I posted earlier. (No, I don't want to mockup Mozart, but I do have my own choral pieces with a couple of fugues containing melismatic singing at about that speed, so I use the Mozart example as a familiar reference.) Please inform us regarding this capability.

Thanks.

chocothrax
05-27-2005, 07:28 PM
Are there going to be any new demos before the 30% off deadline? I'm on the fence, while quite pleasureable i'd still like to get off it. :)

Nick Phoenix
05-28-2005, 12:20 AM
Nick, what about melismatic singing? Several people have asked about this and we're still in the dark on this issue. Could the choir handle something like the Cum Sancto Spiritu from the Mozart C minor mass, or are we talking about much slower note speeds such as the Fauré examples I posted earlier. (No, I don't want to mockup Mozart, but I do have my own choral pieces with a couple of fugues containing melismatic singing at about that speed, so I use the Mozart example as a familiar reference.) Please inform us regarding this capability.

Thanks.

Yes, the choir can handle just about anything. Hopefully we can show that soon.

George Bellas
05-28-2005, 10:19 AM
Man, is it next Wednesday yet? :eek:

I can't hardly wait!

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 10:36 AM
Man, is it next Wednesday yet? :eek:

I can't hardly wait!

George,

EW will receive the product on Tuesday, then all of the orders have to processed in the order they were received. We have a LOT of orders, so don't count on getting anything Wednesday, it will take up to a week from Wednesday to get all of the orders out.

- Doug

Daryl
05-28-2005, 10:39 AM
George,

EW will receive the product on Tuesday, then all of the orders have to processed in the order they were received. We have a LOT of orders, so don't count on getting anything Wednesday, it will take up to a week from Wednesday to get all of the orders out.

- Doug

Yeah, and with the experience that I've had with FedEx over the last two weeks you may not get it at all. I wish people would stop using them :>(

Daryl

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 11:07 AM
Yeah, and with the experience that I've had with FedEx over the last two weeks you may not get it at all. I wish people would stop using them :>(

Daryl

Actually Daryl, over the years we've tried them all, and FedEx is by far the best.

- Doug

Daryl
05-28-2005, 11:09 AM
Actually Daryl, over the years we've tried them all, and FedEx is by far the best.

- Doug

Well, it was worth a try. It doesn't say much for the rest though :>)

Daryl

legofred
05-28-2005, 12:01 PM
Do you ship by FedEx to us European customers? If not, which service do you use? The package will be both tracked and insured, yes?

This would be nice to know, as I'm waiting for three products from you. Thanks.

Neilfactory
05-28-2005, 12:41 PM
Do you ship by FedEx to us European customers?
Usually, yes, i think.
It's funny, i'm always remember CAST AWAY when i see fedex...I hope the plane willn't crash! :DI want my order:)


Neil.

George Bellas
05-28-2005, 01:42 PM
Usually, yes, i think.
It's funny, i'm always remember CAST AWAY when i see fedex...I hope the plane willn't crash! :DI want my order:)
Neil.

:eek: Don't jinx it Neil!

You can drop me off on a deserted island anytime, as long as I have my EWQLSC, G5, and Instruments, I should be alright. ;)

Doug, thanks for the heads-up on the shipping.

lovelysilence
05-28-2005, 05:12 PM
You can drop me off on a deserted island anytime, as long as I have my EWQLSC, G5, and Instruments, I should be alright. ;)


Don't forget electricity George ;)

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 05:47 PM
Do you ship by FedEx to us European customers? If not, which service do you use? The package will be both tracked and insured, yes?

This would be nice to know, as I'm waiting for three products from you. Thanks.

It's sent FedEx worldwide, but we don't insure anything unless you request it.

- Doug

aryeh
05-28-2005, 08:39 PM
Been following the thread since my last post on 05-23-2005.

Here’s what I need to order:

More solo choir in the demos. (It’s a demo. I want to hear what’s really going on.)

A lot more focus on English language in the demos — if Hollywood is EastWest’s major focus,why all the focus on Latin? Palestrina's not buying. I don’t get it.

Don’t repeat the same words over and over again in the demos. In a typical Broadway musical chorus (e.g. West Side Story, Oklahoma, Les Miz…), the text keeps changing. (It would be good to know how long it takes to set a paragraph of text — perhaps fifty words — which are clear to understand.

Quick moving text which is clear to understand.

And most important of all: ENUNCIATE, ENUNCIATE, ENUNCIATE. Every word ought to be clear to the listener without having to revert to a text. (One of the posts on this thread featured a link to a recorded choir. As soon as I clicked on one of the samples, “Now that’s in the ballpark!” Every word was clear to understand, the text was up-tempo and rhythmically interesting.. ) From what I have read, I am not alone in my need to hear this.

I’m hoping to use the SC to do the chorus parts in a recording I’m finishing up.

Otherwise, the SC is definitely a big step forward. Like a number of others who have posted, I am just not sure it can pull off what I am looking for at this time. And again, the amount of time to make the Word Builder pull it off is a consideration.

Regards,

Aryeh Har-Even
http://www.Har-Even.com

My last post followed by Doug's response:

05-23-2005
Congrads on getting the demos posted; however, I'm having a problem with the demos. Yes, on the surface they are dazzling. But I find the music way overpowering and am having trouble hearing the voices. And isn't this what the demos are for? Also, most of the work seems to not be sung in English. Other than the whisper at the beginning of the one of the pieces, I really don't understand what the choir is singing. This is crucial for a composer whose goal it is to actually release this choir on a recording.

I remember the demos were also supposed to feature solo vocals. Is this still going to be the case?

Could you possibly post the MP3's without the orchestra so that one can actually hear the details?

Will check in later. Thanks,

Aryeh
http://www.Har-Even.com

PS I really would have loved to have hear a few well know works (e.g. "America" from West Side Story...)

In the bigger productions, the choir is usually mixed back and the vocals are usually in latin.

There are also some demos with no backing at all (Dante's Dream - the lyrics are printed further up this thread) or very little backing (Ave Verum).

Glory to the Knight is a good example of the WordBuilder English capabilities (consider, none of this is actually sung by anyone - but created with a computer, our software, and sounds!).

There will be many more demos, this is just the start.

Once the product is released we will have "WordBuilder Central" here in our forum, where users will be able to build up a database of WordBuilder words and phrases. The idea is to have users upload and download WB templates to save them time.

This is going to be a lot of fun!

- Doug

Neilfactory
05-29-2005, 02:49 AM
More solo choir in the demos. (It’s a demo. I want to hear what’s really going on.)(...)if Hollywood is EastWest’s major focus,why all the focus on Latin?(...)Don’t repeat the same words over and over again in the demos.

Hi aryeh,

You can see the possibilty of EWQLSO Choirs with these demos, isn't it?
You can be sure of one thing. You'll hear many demos from users with more time...

Neil.

theiss2003
05-29-2005, 04:09 AM
Usually, yes, i think.
It's funny, i'm always remember CAST AWAY when i see fedex...I hope the plane willn't crash! :DI want my order:)


Neil.


Funny, because I had the same feeling when I received my Gold-package, which was packed in the usual box-size (the same one which Hanks delivers at the end of the movie - the one with the angel-wings on it) :D

BTW - listening to Nicks "Wall of Fire" simply whipped me out of my socks ! Man, what a great demo ! - - - Time to order now... :)

Seb

Hardy Heern
05-29-2005, 05:14 AM
Let's keep this in perspective guys. I've yet to hear a choral work where I've been able to make out the words.....regardless of the language :) OK a very slight exaggeration, but I bet everyone here knows what I mean.

BTW the AVE VERUM made the hairs on my neck stand up.....several times.....no kidding. That takes some doing with my jaded, sixty year old hair follicles.

I hadn't listened to this piece in quite a while. What a composer, what sounds.....even though it's probably the most unrealistic demo, orchestrally and choirly, the sheer beauty of the sounds, chords, melody and resolutions just do it for me. I do think this demo could, probably, be tweaked up quite a bit.

Frank

Doug Rogers
05-29-2005, 10:27 AM
You have to ask yourself, what else is there that can make my computer sing like this, and with the quality of sounds in Symphonic Choirs (recorded by an audio legend Prof. Keith O. Johnson)?

The answer is clearly - nothing!

Composers - we're talking about software that can sing what you type into WordBuilder! You don't have to hire anyone, you don't have to pay royalties, you have it for life, and it's sitting there 24/7 for that late night inspiration.

The results will depend on your skill with WordBuilder. It has all of the tools you need to do anything, but we don't provide the talent.

With so many copies going out next week, there will obviously be all sorts of demos in the coming months. Some will be good, some will be bad, and some will be stunning!

- Doug

p.s. Here's an interesting side note: Anton is working on another demo. For comparison purposes, he sent me an MP3 of the London Choir singing "Dies Irae" (with LSO conducted by Leonard Bernstein) - it sounded awful! I thought to myself, imagine if we posted that as a demo, no one would have purchased this product.

Daryl
05-29-2005, 11:11 AM
p.s. Here's an interesting side note: Anton is working on another demo. For comparison purposes, he sent me an MP3 of the London Choir singing "Dies Irae" (with LSO conducted by Leonard Bernstein) - it sounded awful! I thought to myself, imagine if we posted that as a demo, no one would have purchased this product.

Yeah, Bernstein; very overated as a conductor. His "performance" of Enigma Variations with the BBC Symphony was one of the worst that I've heard.

D

esteso
05-29-2005, 12:07 PM
You have to ask yourself, what else is there that can make my computer sing like this, and with the quality of sounds in Symphonic Choirs (recorded by an audio legend Prof. Keith O. Johnson)?

The answer is clearly - nothing!

Composers - we're talking about software that can sing what you type into WordBuilder! You don't have to hire anyone, you don't have to pay royalties, you have it for life, and it's sitting there 24/7 for that late night inspiration.


What he said!

fal
05-29-2005, 12:40 PM
all i have to say is :eek:

black neon bob
05-29-2005, 12:53 PM
A week after listening to the demos, and i am HYPED for this one!

Does anyone have any idea when us europeans will get this??

Nayi
05-29-2005, 12:55 PM
I don't know why people are still misjudging this product even after the demos have been posted.

It seems that most don't understand how is this product supposed to be used and when it is most effective.

The choir is perhaps the most difficult section of the orchestra to reproduce in your DAW with sample libraries and vst's. So, having a tool like Symphonic Choirs that can sing everything that you want in any language is heavenly !
But like any tool this one also has its drawbacks and limitations. Don't get me wrong, EWQL did a tremendous job, but we are talking about the human voice here!
I can't help to laugh when someone is asking Doug if the solo voices can sing workds too. What is this? The year 2150? :)
As showed on the demos Symphonic Choirs is extremely effective in epic hollywood kind of sound. The boys choirs as expected is not as good especially in softer passages. Music technology still has a long way to go to give us realistic and intuitive tools that can work in smaller ensemble/chamber contexts and can capture all the detail and nuances of an more intimate recording.
If you listen to several film scores that feature choirs most of them are drowned in reverb and masked by the orchestra. You can't understand a word but that's not really what is matters. What matters is the sonic impact, sometimes they're singing meanless words just to get that feeeling.
I guess this may have been a choice of EWQL to expose the choirs has much as they could but even on the epic demos, the choirs would sound better with reverb and masked with the orchestra to prevent us from hearing the "sucking" sound between the sylables.
Also the choice for a classical demo is a HUGE mistake in IMHO. There shouldn't be one in the first place. Symphonic Choirs is a product aimed for film scoring, of course, you can use it in any context but will not sound as good imo.

Doug Rogers
05-29-2005, 12:57 PM
A week after listening to the demos, and i am HYPED for this one!

Does anyone have any idea when us europeans will get this??

If you ordered from soundsonline.com they will start shipping next week, our international partners will receive their orders the following week.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-29-2005, 01:07 PM
Also the choice for a classical demo is a HUGE mistake in IMHO. There shouldn't be one in the first place. Symphonic Choirs is a product aimed for film scoring, of course, you can use it in any context but will not sound as good imo.

There will be plenty of "mistakes" posted in the coming months. I don't think it matters how faithfully it represents the original work, in this instance he chose not to, and do his own arrangement (one part with boys choir). I think the choir sounds nice (which is the purpose) and it's a good compliment to the other demos.

The other thing is, all demos will get better over time as users get more familiar with WordBuilder, and it's programming capabilities (these guys had 2 weeks to put these demos together, they had never used WordBuilder before, and we were changing code on them every day during a beta test). Imperfections are just the result of programming skills that will obviously improve once users have more experience with the tool. Some of you "choir experts" will have an obvious advantage since you know how it's supposed to sound based on your experience, and you can manipulate WordBuilder accordingly. For most composers looking to add choir colors (that are singing words) to their music the results will be realized very quickly.

Give 10 musicians the same instrument, and they will all produce something different with it.

- Doug

Magpie
05-29-2005, 01:29 PM
If you ordered from soundsonline.com they will start shipping next week, our international partners will receive their orders the following week.

- Doug

By " international partners " are you refering to your international distributers or SOL
customers outside the US :confused:

Doug Rogers
05-29-2005, 01:32 PM
By " international partners " are you refering to your international distributers or SOL
customers outside the US :confused:

Our international distributors. :)

- Doug

madfiddler
05-30-2005, 11:32 AM
That sounds fantastic. Congratulations to all concerned!!!

Hardy Heern
05-30-2005, 01:43 PM
I don't know why people are still misjudging this product even after the demos have been posted.

Also the choice for a classical demo is a HUGE mistake in IMHO.

There shouldn't be one in the first place.

Symphonic Choirs is a product aimed for film scoring of course, you can use it in any context but will not sound as good imo.

Who says?
Who says?and
Who says?

Everyone can and will use it in every which way. You'll still have some 'professional composers' who play samples like they're playing the piano and you'll have others with the patience and MIDI skills who'll be able to do almost anything with this brilliant library. It hasn't been around anything like long enough to pass sentence. All I can say is that I very much like the evidence I've heard so far! :)

EuroFrank

Neilfactory
05-30-2005, 02:58 PM
I don't know why people are still misjudging this product even after the demos have been posted.

:confused:

Neil.

aryeh
05-30-2005, 11:36 PM
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nayi

I don't know why people are still misjudging this product even after the demos have been posted.

Also the choice for a classical demo is a HUGE mistake in IMHO.

There shouldn't be one in the first place.

Symphonic Choirs is a product aimed for film scoring of course, you can use it in any context but will not sound as good imo.

Aryeh: I've been wondering this myself. For a film composer, yes, the SC is a GREAT tool and a BIG step forward. However, I'm not scoring much these days...

But for my current use, to have the SC sing the chorus parts in a recording of a new musical I penned, I need to know that it can enunciate the text in English so that all the words are easily intelligible to the listener. Thus, I'm waiting to hear new demos without orchestra. Plus, the demos ought to have continually changing text. And it would be useful to know how long it took to work the Word Builder in such demos.

In short, one must understand the words in English. Here's hoping.

Otherwise, very impressive, and yes, highly useful to the film composer. This really is a no brainer.

Regards,

Aryeh Har-Even
http://www.Har-Even.com

neoTypic
05-30-2005, 11:41 PM
I have a feeling EWQLSC can do a lot more than what we've heard so far. I don't envy the demo makers for sure! *laughs*

I'm just trying to figure out if I can afford to buy it. :p

Hardy Heern
05-31-2005, 03:42 AM
I have a feeling EWQLSC can do a lot more than what we've heard so far. I don't envy the demo makers for sure! *laughs*

I'm just trying to figure out if I can afford to buy it. :p

Neo, I'm afraid I've already figured out that I can't!! :eek:

Frank

bmiranda
05-31-2005, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Nayi
Also the choice for a classical demo is a HUGE mistake in IMHO. There shouldn't be one in the first place. Symphonic Choirs is a product aimed for film scoring, of course, you can use it in any context but will not sound as good imo.

Well, i'm going to buy EWQLSC specially for writing classical choir music.
I must say that one thing that really disappointed me in the demos was that cut of between notes. I really hope that there will be a way of playing legato the choir notes!

neoTypic
05-31-2005, 06:36 AM
Neo, I'm afraid I've already figured out that I can't!! :eek:

Frank

I'm afraid I can't either... but financial responsibility has to be broken every once in a while. ;)

Mmmmmmmmmmm ramen.

*gag* :D

ChrisBouchard
05-31-2005, 07:38 AM
So a question for Nick/Doug/demo composers: is there a way to work around this by filling in the sounds-between-the-sounds on a slow transition? For instance a slow "qua" might be kuuuwwwooaa as opposed to kwa. Seems like a tortuous process (if it's possible), which may be why it wasn't done in the demos.


This is the missing key! If the demos used this "Vowel Modulation" between consonants (needed between almost every consonant and vowel a choir sings) it will get you far closer to convincing. It could actually bring the Choirs up to the same level of realism we've come to expect from EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. Also, some use of the expression controller for phrasing would help most of the demos.

Doug Rogers
05-31-2005, 09:24 AM
In short, one must understand the words in English. Here's hoping.

You couldn't understand the words "Glory to the Knight"?

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-31-2005, 09:32 AM
This is the missing key! If the demos used this "Vowel Modulation" between consonants (needed between almost every consonant and vowel a choir sings) it will get you far closer to convincing. It could actually bring the Choirs up to the same level of realism we've come to expect from EWQL Symphonic Orchestra. Also, some use of the expression controller for phrasing would help most of the demos.

Each letter in WordBuilder is represented on it's own line, and there are extensive editing tools per letter and transition.

All will be clear when the product is released this week.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-31-2005, 09:34 AM
Apart from the bundles that are available, this is your last chance to get a 30% discount off SYMPHONIC CHOIRS until next year or later. For more details, go here -

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=536

- Doug

Hardy Heern
05-31-2005, 01:21 PM
Apart from the bundles that are available, this is your last chance to get a 30% discount off SYMPHONIC CHOIRS until next year or later. For more details, go here -

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=536

- Doug

Don't Doug...Don't!!! I implore you!!

The brain is willing but the balance is weak! :)

EuroFrank
Qui ou Non?

dory
05-31-2005, 02:10 PM
Would someone just tell me whether this library will work with Logic Pro 7. I've posted two threads and received no response. Please, anybody know anything?

black neon bob
05-31-2005, 05:31 PM
Bump for Dory!!

sinkd
05-31-2005, 09:26 PM
Once, long ago, in a land far far out there...

A man invented a new tool that would accomplish what no other tool yet invented could do. It's capabilities were indeed revolutionary--transforming the ways in which whole communities could work and create.

The possibilities seemed endless. Indeed, many had spoken to the man as this invention took shape, encouraging him and investing in the promise of its fabulous utility.

And then came the day. After much hard work and many hours of labor (and a spate of unavoidable delays) the man, in all humility and generosity, offered his new tool to the anxiously awaiting community...

And many were indeed blown away, some among their number even offered unparalled demonstrations of the amazing new capabilities of this wondrous invention. Two or three even ruined perfectly good pairs of pants when they witnessed the accomplishment...

But then some were heard to say:

"But it churneth not the butter automatically," and "it faileth to discern between the red beans and the black..." "if we are to be expected to acquire this tool it must also sheer the sheep and whatever else we think of later...."

"But friends," protested the weary inventor, " it does so many other, wonderful things--things that I promised it would be able to do!"

Many bought the invention gladly, mortgaging property and disposing of superfluous offspring to acquire the necessary funds. But a few remained unimpressed, though they were later known to buy the invention anyway after they realized the folly of their ways and that they had indeed been privy to the unveiling of an unprecedented miracle, though they had really failed to understand, at first, and that this thing was, I mean s**t, actually unbe-f***-in-lievably useful.

And, lo, the inventor was right cheesed off. For this, and for other reasons not pertinent to this parable thread, he withdrew all further offers of generous assistance to those who might need his assistance (though amiably leaving all current offers in place :) ) and swore a solemn oath not to reveal to anyone the prospects of any further discoveries until they were right ready for market.

And so the faithful of the community, who believed in the inventor's abilities all along and who ardently and patiently await the delivery of theirs (I'm thinking maybe Friday-- I got mine in a sweet bundle deal with RA and Pro Platinum Upgrade) were known to be really sorry that more weren't able to sing the praises of the invention from the start--though many did in short, exultory posts. It is quite possible that they were too busy making kick-butt creations with the inventors earlier stuff to complain about the Amazing Invention...

:rolleyes:

Nick Phoenix
05-31-2005, 10:16 PM
Funny. Thanks for that! Don't worry we have thick skin these days. :)

aryeh
05-31-2005, 10:19 PM
Re: previous post

Sorry, but I don’t agree. Even those who have had problems with the demos are lauding the technological breakthrough. It’s just that the product may not be for all choral/chorus use at this stage.

Before potentially investing a lot of time to learn the Word Builder (never mind the cost of the program), it only seems reasonable to want to be able to understand the words in the demos and to have an idea as to how long it took to set them before getting to deep into the product.

Again, thank you East West for bringing the product to market and helping to push the envelope.

Aryeh Har-Even
http://www.Har-Even.com

lgrohn
05-31-2005, 10:25 PM
"SYMPHONIC CHOIRS includes an advanced word building utility for both MAC and PC that includes a text editor that enables users to type in the words they want the choirs to sing (not applicable to solo vocalists)."

Why this: "not applicable to solo vocalist"?

Lee Blaske
05-31-2005, 10:48 PM
Once, long ago, in a land far far out there...

A man invented a new tool that would accomplish what no other tool yet invented could do. It's capabilities were indeed revolutionary--transforming the ways in which whole communities could work and create.

The possibilities seemed endless. Indeed, many had spoken to the man as this invention took shape, encouraging him and investing in the promise of its fabulous utility. Etc.

Nice piece. This really brings to mind the Nathaniel Hawthorne short story "Artist of the Beautiful." For those who haven't read it, it's really worth checking out. It's not a knee-slapper. It's on the poignant side, and definitely one of my all-time favorites.

http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/nhawthorne/bl-nhaw-art.htm

In that story, Nick would be the Owen Warland character, although I don't know if Nick's time investment in Symphonic Choir project caused him to lose the love of his life.

Lee Blaske

Nick Phoenix
05-31-2005, 11:41 PM
"SYMPHONIC CHOIRS includes an advanced word building utility for both MAC and PC that includes a text editor that enables users to type in the words they want the choirs to sing (not applicable to solo vocalists)."

Why this: "not applicable to solo vocalist"?

We didn't attempt wordbuilding with the soloists, we just sampled some basic vowels and expressive vowels. A solo voice is very pure and the wordbuilding is much more difficult to achieve than with a choir.

folmann
06-01-2005, 12:30 AM
Allow me to add that the solo voices are extremely versatile due to a hefty amount of key-shifting features and an elegant amount of different pronounciations.

neoTypic
06-01-2005, 02:20 AM
I am weak *hangs head* :o


Can one buy stock in ramen noodles? :D

synergy543
06-01-2005, 02:44 AM
I am weak *hangs head* :o


Can one buy stock in ramen noodles? :D
Since its after midnight, I suppose you must've succumbed to the weakness?

Be sure to buy the "baked ones" as the fried ones are very bad for you. I like to just pour a little water on them and eat them while they're still crunchy. :eek:

If you're more the gourmet type check these out:

http://mattfischer.com/ramen/

neoTypic
06-01-2005, 03:08 AM
Since its after midnight, I suppose you must've succumbed to the weakness?

Be sure to buy the "baked ones" as the fried ones are very bad for you. I like to just pour a little water on them and eat them while they're still crunchy. :eek:

If you're more the gourmet type check these out:

http://mattfischer.com/ramen/

I did, I did. It's twue! :p Heheheh.

Ick *wrinkles nose*. There are some japanese brands out there that aren't too bad but yipes! Your lower intestinal tracks will HATE you the next morning as it burns through a lining or two! :D

Thanks for the link *laughs*. I'll have to check it out. :p

AndyFinkenstadt
06-01-2005, 09:25 AM
Resistance was futile... :)

Hardy Heern
06-01-2005, 10:25 AM
Once, long ago, in a land far far out there...

A man invented a new tool that would accomplish what no other tool yet invented could do. It's capabilities were indeed revolutionary--transforming the ways in which whole .................................................. .................................................. .............................. that more weren't able to sing the praises of the invention from the start--though many did in short, exultory posts. It is quite possible that they were too busy making kick-butt creations with the inventors earlier stuff to complain about the Amazing Invention...

:rolleyes:

Skin Deep, That was hilarious, very well written! :) Have you ever thought of taking up the writing of parables (thereof) professionally? :)

EuroFrank
Qui ou Non?

Hardy Heern
06-01-2005, 10:39 AM
Re: previous post

Sorry, but I don’t agree. Even those who have had problems with the demos are lauding the technological breakthrough. It’s just that the product may not be for all choral/chorus use at this stage.

Before potentially investing a lot of time to learn the Word Builder (never mind the cost of the program), it only seems reasonable to want to be able to understand the words in the demos and to have an idea as to how long it took to set them before getting to deep into the product.

Again, thank you East West for bringing the product to market and helping to push the envelope.

Aryeh Har-Even
http://www.Har-Even.com

Aryeh, As I said in an earlier post, when have you, seriously, been able to make out the words, regardless of language, in a choral work? The classical choirs are worse, in that regard, than the sixties pop groups, when all older folk (of which I am now one ) proclaimed that no one could hear the words and what rubbish it was. I have to say that I find the words of those pop groups easier to understand than those of classical choral groups.

Just my tanner's worth.....again. I'd be happy with the gist of the words.

Frank

sinkd
06-01-2005, 03:33 PM
Skin Deep, That was hilarious, very well written! :) Have you ever thought of taking up the writing of parables (thereof) professionally? :)

EuroFrank
Qui ou Non?

What? And give up my wildly lucrative career as a college music professor?
I think not!

...Skin Deep...hmmmm...I'll have to think about that

DS :cool:

Hardy Heern
06-01-2005, 03:36 PM
What? And give up my wildly lucrative career as a college music professor?
I think not!

...Skin Deep...hmmmm...I'll have to think about that

DS :cool:

Sorry DS, I really read your handle as skind....which made me think of skin deep. I really must get some ointment for my dyslexia!

I thought I'd just clear that up. :o
Frank

sinkd
06-01-2005, 04:22 PM
Sorry DS, I really read your handle as skind....which made me think of skin deep. I really must get some ointment for my dyslexia!

I thought I'd just clear that up. :o
Frank
No sweat! "Skin Deep" has a sort of 'adult film industry' vibe that probably isn't me--but, you never know.

DS

Doug Rogers
06-01-2005, 04:30 PM
No sweat! "Skin Deep" has a sort of 'adult film industry' vibe that probably isn't me--but, you never know.

DS

Are you sure you're not the real "deep throat"?

- Doug

sinkd
06-01-2005, 04:37 PM
Are you sure you're not the real "deep throat"?

- Doug

Wait... which forum is this...?

DS

:eek:

sinkd
06-01-2005, 04:40 PM
Furiously posting irrelevant replies to transcend emasculating "Junior Member"status... :D

Stefan Podell
06-01-2005, 05:02 PM
Let me see if I can help, sinkd. Um.... How are you doing? :p

sinkd
06-01-2005, 06:25 PM
Let me see if I can help, sinkd. Um.... How are you doing? :p

Fine. Just fine. And you, Stefan?

DS

sinkd
06-01-2005, 07:05 PM
Stefan? Anybody?

Abandoned in my hour of need... I get the feeling there aren't many guys out there in the Ohio time zone.

UAD-1 card forces me to render in real time...

Must... wait...

DS

aryeh
06-01-2005, 09:59 PM
Hi Frank,

Very tired. A quick response to your post.

I do agree that classical choirs can be difficult to understand. But I'd like to use SC emulate a live chorus in a Broadway "type" recording. E.g. Bernstein, Weber... And in those shows/recordings, I find the words pretty easy to understand. I do hope one can make the word builder spit out syllables clearly enunciated. So as I'm still recording the live parts, I'll be watching and hoping for new SC demos featuring the choir in English and easy to understand. And like I said, a great step forward, even if I have to hire singers because the product might not be right for the work I'm currently doing.

Regards,

Aryeh
http://www.Har-Even.com

Doug Rogers
06-02-2005, 09:21 AM
Hi Frank,

Very tired. A quick response to your post.

I do agree that classical choirs can be difficult to understand. But I'd like to use SC emulate a live chorus in a Broadway "type" recording. E.g. Bernstein, Weber... And in those shows/recordings, I find the words pretty easy to understand. I do hope one can make the word builder spit out syllables clearly enunciated. So as I'm still recording the live parts, I'll be watching and hoping for new SC demos featuring the choir in English and easy to understand. And like I said, a great step forward, even if I have to hire singers because the product might not be right for the work I'm currently doing.

Regards,

Aryeh
http://www.Har-Even.com

I have asked you this before but you didn't answer. When you listen to "Glory to the Knight", are you saying you can't understand the words (in English)?

- Doug

aryeh
06-02-2005, 10:09 AM
Hi Doug,

Sorry, I didn't realize you asked me that question. Just listened to Glory to the Night again (through a Metric Halo ULN2 and AKG240's). Other than the title words, "Glory to the Night", I really don't have a clue as to what they are saying. Ran it by a student of mine Monday evening and he felt the same way. I found that with Dante's dream, when looking at the words it all was clear; however, without the lyrics, I only caught the odd word.

Again, I'm not knocking the product. I think it's an amazing new tool for the right application — especially film, when the soundtrack is to be felt rather than the main focus. It's just that when all ears are on the choir, when they are what everything is about (e.g. telling the story), it has to be pretty much easy to understand.

With all this chat on the issue here on the forum, I'm really looking forward to hearing user demos in coming days. I'm sure it will be very interesting. And I sure hope it will work for me. When I first read about the SC, it was like a dream come true to not have to record the choir parts live. Here's hoping it's right for me at this time. As you can tell, I'm watching and waiting.

Best wishes, and again, congratulations. I'm sure many award nominations await your exciting new product.

Aryeh
http://www.Har-Even.com

Doug Rogers
06-02-2005, 10:43 AM
Hi Doug,

Other than the title words, "Glory to the Night", I really don't have a clue as to what they are saying

That's because the rest of the singing (which is mainly the title repeated) is submerged in the arrangement - however - the fact you can hear precise English where there is little orchestration proves WordBuilder can deliver understandable words, which was our goal. This will improve also as the WordBuilder skills of users improve.

I personally think this product has wide application beyond film/tv soundtracks.

- Doug

aryeh
06-02-2005, 11:22 AM
That would be beyond words, Doug. It would sure make my life a whole lot less complicated.

I'm rootin' for ya!

Aryeh
http://www.Har-Even.com