Guitar hero.. Friend or foe?

[JSP]

I was listening to a conversation the other day between co-workers, and couldn’t help overhearing their discussion on music. They seemed quite passionate on a recent performance and talked about it at great lengths... Being the curious guy that am, I was intrigued by the topic and thought I would introduce myself and join in on the discussion.. It’s rare to find other composers, musicians in my field to talk about composition, hardware etc.. It was but a moment later when I discovered they were actually talking about Guitar Hero... I thought Good grief! .

Not a guitar player myself… but I imagine actual players must quietly smile when they see so much enthusiasm revolve around this game.

Any thoughts ?



Jeff

[pietro7050@verizon.net]

Being a guitar player, I think its a good thing. The kids <and adults> are discovering 'classic rock' and the next logical step is for them to learn how to play for real. It maybe be 'dumbed-down' but it sheds a positive, fun light on guitar and playing music in general. Can that be bad?

[OneThrow]

I'm a coward, I waited till someone else had replied before I attempting mine. :cool:

Think of it as a game. Instead of the usual monster bashing click fest, here is someone learning musical rhythms and getting good musical sounds out when they get it right. They feel like they are playing music. Its tough, in the end its more like a hand eye co-ordination thing. On the harder level its easier to play the music on a real guitar. :eek:

And its a great stepping stone. So its halfway house music, its air guitar with the feeling you are really part of the music, its rythmic and its fun. Its no substitute for making real music with a real guitar, but its better than bashing aliens. Ultimately, because you have little control over the output in terms of musical expression and even playing the right notes it becomes boring, unlike playing a real musical instrument, which is a whole new world.

I think its okay, and if it brings more people into the world of music, I think its great. :) And let's face it, its the closest a lot of kids will get to playing real music. You never know they could end up keying notes into a sequencer and playing them back with a sample library. Some people say that's not making real music either. :D:D

[JSP]

Aside from the obvious mindless fun video games provide, (I’m guilty in this area) A question I would have asked is whether or not playing Guitar Hero would actually contribute to learning a real guitar.

..Still not convinced that it does. I think the only similarity between the real instrument and this game, is that both are in the shape of a guitar.

What boggles my mind is hearing reports of those spending hundreds! of hours on this toy…. If they had spent as much effort / dedication on the real thing, I’m certain they would actually play!


.just making an observation..:cool:

[OneThrow]

Aside from the obvious mindless fun video games provide, (I’m guilty in this area) A question I would have asked is whether or not playing Guitar Hero would actually contribute to learning a real guitar.


Its a bit like can you name 4 Renaissance Italian painters? No?
Can you name the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, because if you can you've just answered the first question. (Might have to go back a few years for that example to be relevant.)

Point is, what is mindless fun to us can be educational if done well. I think Guitar Heroes does some things well. Like you can practise the bits you can't play, you get good feedback on your performance. And for a beginner you get to make great noises, which normally you wouldn't be able to do. What I would hope it would do, is inspire a young gamer to want to pick up a real guitar and make real noises and find out the joys of making real music.

It is a game after all, all be it a musical one.

[paulwr]

What boggles my mind is hearing reports of those spending hundreds! of hours on this toy…. If they had spent as much effort / dedication on the real thing, I’m certain they would actually play!

This is the point that is sad to me. That the interest in the game is such that an INCREDIBLE number hours goes into getting really good at it........... and they really could have started to be pretty decent on the real thing if the hours had gone into the real instrument.

But all life revolves around personal taste, and that is that. Some also like to spend a lot of time on 'reality tv' instead of going out and creating their own life.......... and who out there may be pointing to the likes of me, using a computer to generate orchestral music......... as already mentioned..........

.....well.... no games for me, too much computer time already!

-Paul

[OneThrow]

This is the point that is sad to me. That the interest in the game is such that an INCREDIBLE number hours goes into getting really good at it........... and they really could have started to be pretty decent on the real thing if the hours had gone into the real instrument.


The trouble is that takes effort and commitment, two words that are a bit yuk. :eek:

But then who am I to talk spending far too much time in my younger days reading comics instead of PROPER BOOKS. :D Man I feel old.

[pietro7050@verizon.net]

Funny thing is a friend of mine teaches string orchestra and he wastes an insane amount of hours on video games. I can't imagine the monster player he would be if he turned that into practice time! I struggle to get in three solid hours a day, but it makes a huge difference in my playing. In my late teens I was practicing 6-8 a day. So if the video game actually had you playing notes on a mock-up neck these kids would be monster players!

[ShadowaterMusic]

Its a bit like can you name 4 Renaissance Italian painters? No?
Can you name the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, because if you can you've just answered the first question. (Might have to go back a few years for that example to be relevant.) Yes, but unless the point of the first question is simply to know the names but absolutely nothing about the painters, nothing meaningful has changed. The interviewee is still completely ignorant regarding Renaissance era painters and his mistaken notions regarding radioactivity is likely to get a lot of turtles killed. :)

Point is, what is mindless fun to us can be educational if done well. I think Guitar Heroes does some things well. Like you can practise the bits you can't play, you get good feedback on your performance. And for a beginner you get to make great noises, which normally you wouldn't be able to do. What I would hope it would do, is inspire a young gamer to want to pick up a real guitar and make real noises and find out the joys of making real music. Again, though, what's changed? Has this person learned anything about the music he's clicking to or music in general? Is he simply keeping color coordinated time?

Personally, I doubt it would have any positive effect on a person picking up and sticking with the guitar. Being conditioned to expect the guitar to be as easy as playing a video game doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

It is a game after all, all be it a musical one. But that doesn't make players musicians anymore than it makes GTA players murderers. :)

[peter5992]

I was listening to a conversation the other day between co-workers, and couldn’t help overhearing their discussion on music. They seemed quite passionate on a recent performance and talked about it at great lengths... Being the curious guy that am, I was intrigued by the topic and thought I would introduce myself and join in on the discussion.. It’s rare to find other composers, musicians in my field to talk about composition, hardware etc.. It was but a moment later when I discovered they were actually talking about Guitar Hero... I thought Good grief! .

Not a guitar player myself… but I imagine actual players must quietly smile when they see so much enthusiasm revolve around this game.

Any thoughts ?



Jeff

Personally I think anything that sparkes people's interest in playing guitar, and revises their interest in music, is great. This game is wildly successful, and apparently (per a recent CNN program) it turns a lot of young people on to 70s and 80s rock music -- Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, and so on. Well, that was some great music, and this is coming from a guy that graduated from conservatory of music, classical guitar.

Word has it, by the way, that Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks is a huge fan of Guitar Hero - during their Accidents and Accusations tour, she used to play it all the time (well, not while the Chicks were on stage, of course). So go figure ...

For me personally, if I want to rock away, I'd rather plug in one of my electric guitar into Guitar Rig 3 --- ain't nothin' like the real thing.

[OneThrow]

But that doesn't make players musicians anymore than it makes GTA players murderers. :)

Ohhhhhhhh that's a hard comment. :D Which incidentally opens up a whole new can of worms which is way beyond the scope of this forum.

I don't think the game is trying to make game players into musicians. What I think it does do is make music fun. And for those who don't really aspire to playing a musical instrument they could do a lot worse.

Again, though, what's changed? Has this person learned anything about the music he's clicking to or music in general? Is he simply keeping color coordinated time?

Strangly enough keeping colour co-ordinated time is a musical activity, its all about rhythms. Unfortunatley in Guitar Heroes case if you play the rhythms musically you don't do very well, its really hand eye co-ordination. In a way its a slightly different version of those keyboards that have keys that light up with the notes you have to play to make a tune.

Guitar Heroes is like karaoke for air guitar, except you don't make the noises and you have some buttons to press. It panders to an illusion and its fun. But when someone plays the same song over and over trying to get it right it drives you nuts. Just like listening to someone else practise really. :D

[nzEscher]

I have found that the very mechanical timing you learn in getting good at guitar hero (I have scored 98%+ on almost every song), does actually help in your real playing somewhat. Particularly when it comes to very fast passages where without recording yourself to play back, it is more difficult to notice that a note was slightly out.

It also helps finger dexterity.

It obviously does not help as much as the same time spent on a real guitar, and you can still learn the same things and many other things at the same time on a real guitar, but it does make that practice a little more fun when you have scores to beat.

Disclaimer: I've probably only spent about 30 hours playing the games in total, not hundreds I could otherwise have spent playing real guitar :)

[OneThrow]

Wow! :eek: Someone who actually owns up! :D What level?

Joking aside. Aid to concentration perhaps?

[Kaatza_Music]

My son is into Guitar Hero (and he is not a kid, he is in his mid thirties). He bugged my to try it while I was at his house.

My honest evaluation is that it is entertainment and has nothing to do with playing music. I actually think that it might be detrimental to someone who actually wants to become a musician. There is something off about the timing. I am a guitar player and I didn't do very well at Guitar Hero at first because the timing of the notes does not fall where they would if I had a real guitar in hand. Eventually I did better when I improved my eye hand coordination between the screen and notes, eg. played mechanically in sync to the video. Is this music? I don't think so. What would Stevie Wonder say? :)

[OneThrow]

What would Stevie Wonder say? :)

Guitar Hero in Braille pehaps? :D

[Vincent Bergbahn]

i can play real guitar, but I can't play Guitar hero. The total lack of feed back and delay is terrible. No useful skills and learned from it. It actually i think reenforces bad habits for real music creation. start a real band with your friends it's a lot more fun.

[Hauntedtony]

i agree. for some reason, i can't play guitar hero as well but i can play a real guitar!?

[StrangeCat]

I watched my cousins play it while I improvised on a keyboard with them. I told them hey you aren't putting any expression or soul into your playing(they just looked at my and said shut up LOL!)
Really it's doing great things for the music industry and I expect it to come out in many Styles. Companies look at it as one big money making Bi$$$ch! They will do everything to get all there music on it. Guitar Hero is only the beginning.

[shnurgle]

I am a guitar player and I didn't do very well at Guitar Hero at first because the timing of the notes does not fall where they would if I had a real guitar in hand.
Hey Katz,
I've heard this from other guitar players and drummers too, that people who actually play music for a living tend not to do very well in this game. Which means that it's not accurate to real music performance, and thus time spent playing it will probably diminish ones ability to do the real thing well. But of course, anyone who picks up guitar hero thinking they'll become good at the guitar is probably due for a mental tune-up! It's just another nintendo game, like Mario or Zelda, or that game Simon from the 80's for that matter. Probably beneficial for hand-eye coord, but not much else.

[White Noise 2]

Hey Katz,
I've heard this from other guitar players and drummers too, that people who actually play music for a living tend not to do very well in this game. Which means that it's not accurate to real music performance, and thus time spent playing it will probably diminish ones ability to do the real thing well. But of course, anyone who picks up guitar hero thinking they'll become good at the guitar is probably due for a mental tune-up! It's just another nintendo game, like Mario or Zelda, or that game Simon from the 80's for that matter. Probably beneficial for hand-eye coord, but not much else.

I do loads of session guitar work but I can't play for sugar on Guitar Hero. Have a a friend who got hooked, went out and bought a Fender Telecaster and POD as a result. Apparently he's getting good at the real thing. So I guess if it inspires people to want to play it's not a bad thing.

[Maverick]

All the time wasted on getting good at Guitar Hero would be better spent learning guitar for real... Or any instrument.

I think it's kinda bad... I bet a lot of kids who play the game want to get really good to show their friends what they can do on "guitar".. The only problem is it's much easier to get good on Guitar Hero than it is learning to play a real guitar... Which takes about 5 years rather than a couple of weeks. So I don't see it as a good thing because it's not a true representation of what learning an instrument really is. I would bet that many kids that play Guitar Hero have then wanted to move on to guitar, realising that it's actually difficult and you need to LEARN theory they probably just give up. However, I imagine a few stick with it.

The only good thing I can see about it is that it's game about rock music, you can't go wrong there.

[LEX]

I don't see any benefit to guitar hero other than people getting into classic music.

It is a shame, but probably good at the same time, that Guitar Hero Aerosmith outsold their record release.

I can't play it either. It is completely unmusical, and the delay is really bad.

There is suppose to be a game, with a real guitar than is not only a game, but also teaches you and you can use any guitar.

Don;'t know if it will every be out though.

LEX

[andorascendor]

My friend purchased "rock band". It's like guitar hero on steroids- it comes with a dinky drumset and you can have a bass, a guitar, a vocal and drum at the same time.

I think it's good for young people but.....

I teach drums and piano and I must say, one of my friends who kinda plays drums, well fer years i've told him that he needs to practice sometimes with a click...when we started for the first time playing (I also play bass and guitar) it was kind of an uncomfortable moment because although he prides himself on being an advanced drummer...when he started to play drums with the game, it was so embarrassing...his time was all over the place. He's been playing it for a while and his time has gotten better...all these years he could of gotten a metronome but it took a video game for him to take notice...

Obviously it's good for hand/eye- When you play the guitar parts on the hardest setting, well it's like a freaky 4 fretted guitar...but it will help with dexterity and timing. I personally think it's fun as hell, I've seen a lot of people who always wanted to play an instrument but never did get a real good smile outta playing that game. I think it's a good thing. BTW, when the drum level is set to expert, you have to play every single note that is on the real recording. Every fill, flams, drops- it feels cheap on those plastic drums, but to get 100 percent you have to play everything exactly like the song...

My opinion: Not an evil game. Helps out with timing, helps somewhat with finger dexterity.

I think it's a good thing...it maybe exercising just the left part of the brain- it does nothing for creating music but it may help certain people with certain issues. Go play it- it's fun as hell......

[jeriddian]

I play both guitar and keys, as my main instruments. I have a friend whose family play Rock Band a lot and I've watched them do it. I could see Guitar Hero (and ergo Rock Band) possibly letting someone see if they would be up to being able to play guitar. It might be helpful before they ever take up the instrument, but I think it would actually mess up their technique in the long run by the way it's structured. So if they've started learning playing guitar, I would advise them to stop playing the Wii and/or xbox stuff.

[peter5992]

Well, for all you Guitar Hero fans, apparently the next generation is going to be a bit more creative ...

See this: http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/10/21/guitar.hero/index.html

This is kind of interesting ... I still don't think it is a replacement for the real thing, but whatever tickles people's in music and gets them to pick up an instrument, is a good thing imho.

Oh, by the way, if anyone here uses a Rage Wireless Guitar (for wii) - be careful you don't burn yourself alive: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09019.html.

[LEX]

My friend purchased "rock band". It's like guitar hero on steroids- it comes with a dinky drumset and you can have a bass, a guitar, a vocal and drum at the same time.

I think it's good for young people but.....

I teach drums and piano and I must say, one of my friends who kinda plays drums, well fer years i've told him that he needs to practice sometimes with a click...when we started for the first time playing (I also play bass and guitar) it was kind of an uncomfortable moment because although he prides himself on being an advanced drummer...when he started to play drums with the game, it was so embarrassing...his time was all over the place. He's been playing it for a while and his time has gotten better...all these years he could of gotten a metronome but it took a video game for him to take notice...

Obviously it's good for hand/eye- When you play the guitar parts on the hardest setting, well it's like a freaky 4 fretted guitar...but it will help with dexterity and timing. I personally think it's fun as hell, I've seen a lot of people who always wanted to play an instrument but never did get a real good smile outta playing that game. I think it's a good thing. BTW, when the drum level is set to expert, you have to play every single note that is on the real recording. Every fill, flams, drops- it feels cheap on those plastic drums, but to get 100 percent you have to play everything exactly like the song...

My opinion: Not an evil game. Helps out with timing, helps somewhat with finger dexterity.

I think it's a good thing...it maybe exercising just the left part of the brain- it does nothing for creating music but it may help certain people with certain issues. Go play it- it's fun as hell......

sure it can help with timing, but so can playing with the record.

Playing with a metronome teaches you much more. Besides, you can work over a part you are having trouble with, and not have to wait until the game goes through that part again.

Can't stress metronome enough.

You'd be amazed how many people can play something, then when you put a metronome on they can't keep up and are all over the place.

Exercising the brain is what a metronome does. playing in time and concentrating on that.

Hand eye coordination. Put up some sheet music. don't look at your hands. Look at the metronome.

While learning music in the beginning is boring, and the fundamentals are tedious and not so fun, patience and practice will allow you to play anything well.

Take a drummer who has been playing garage band for 2 years, nothing else and a noob his first time behind a set with basic fundamentals.
Fast forward a year.

Who can really play? Who can improvise, change it up? Who can play with the same song and add his own flare?

It should be obvious.

The only hope I would see from GB, is it would inspire someone to actually put the bloody game down and learn the real instrument.

LEX

[Sp3ctre18]

guitar hero affects finger dexterity, positions; positioning chords, notes while holding the neck of an instrument.

I play a few differnet insturments, including violin and viola, and how or how fast I had to move my fingers or place chords reminded me a lot of double and triple stops on violin.... I tend to go to 3rd or th positions sometimes too.

It's not like the real thing of course, but it could deifnitely spark interest i'm sure; it brought this mostly clasical/film guy to some rock... mainly Cliffs of Dover cuase... it's instrumental. :D

basically remember... it's just a game controller though.

[Elosai]

I am going to unabashedly tell you all that I absolutely love both of these games, and as a part of the generation that really got sucked into Guitar Hero / Rock Band, I'd like to reveal a small fact: when a kid spends tireless hours practicing Buckethead's "Jordan" on GH2, he doesn't do it to show his friends how good he is at guitar...he's doing it to show his friends how good he is at -Guitar Hero-, and also achieve a goal he's set for himself, just like on any other video-game in existence. There is a -huge- following for rhythm- and music-based games, and nobody does it with the pretense that they're actually making music, but rather that they're honing their sense of rhythm, dexterity, and in a lot of cases, style and flair (Nothing's cooler than doing the main riff of "Less Talk More Rokk" with just hammer-ons & pull-offs...with -both- hands on the fret buttons :cool: ).

For those who find an awkward delay when trying the game, I can only say that it wasn't calibrated properly, as it's very possible to play this game with your back to the screen. I believe that there's definitely an initial period where the game is very much hand-eye coordination, but after a while, the focus spent on hitting buttons when colorful dots hit the bottom of the screen, turns into seeing them coming, and letting one's sense of rhythm dictate their action. And in my opinion, there's no reason to lament time lost practicing the game versus time used to practice on the guitar...somebody who has the true desire to learn the guitar or hone his skills will know where to find his recreation, and where to apply his dedication.

The first and foremost purpose of this game is entertainment, at an easily-accessible level (and medium, hard, and expert levels =P ). Beyond that, it boosts a sense of rhythm and spatio-temporal coordination, which have crossover benefits to any musical instrument. And sometimes, it acts as a gateway, not only to awesome music, but also the mindset that "maybe I could actually do this for real..!"

$0.02

[OneThrow]

And in my opinion, there's no reason to lament time lost practicing the game versus time used to practice on the guitar...

The trouble is any musician who spends a lot of time playing GH instead of practicing is a fool. I mean there are plenty of worse things he/she could be doing and have done in the past. And come to think of it, more interesting things. :D I blame the musician not the game.


...somebody who has the true desire to learn the guitar or hone his skills will know where to find his recreation, and where to apply his dedication.


Now if GH had a real guitar where you were playing real notes which transformed at the higher levels from a pre-recorded track to the amplified sound coming out of the guitar, then that might be more interesting. Until then, in the end it is just another game, which in a few months or maybe years will be gathering dust on the shelves whereas that real guitar or whatever will still be going strong and might even with a little bit more maturity become attractive enough for the jaded GH devotee to want to play. We can always hope.:eek: Or not as the case may be.

[barlowjam]

I would think that while the notion that GH would increase interest in music and might be a segue, for some young players, into actually being interested in a real instrument might be appealing, it probably isn’t true.

I would be willing to bet that most of the musicians on this forum had a time, early on in their lives, where their talent was recognized by someone and they were guided in that direction and got the training that they needed. I would guess that those who use that program (in lieu of any interest in playing a real instrument) were never going to do anything musically anyway. Maybe there are some exceptions.

So considering that – fun is fun. ROCK ON, DUDE!

Oh, BTW – I would never waste my time with a simulation of something that I simply can’t do in real life. Well, I mean, except for Madden Football. I just drafted two really high quality receivers and, now that my offensive line is in place, and my 10 year veteran at running back is healthy and ready to go, I think, given the strength of my defense, we have a good chance of winning the division – and maybe even more. :D

[audiophalanx]

Wow...we all sound like a bunch of angry musicians ;) Its been stated several times before, but this is entertainment. It fulfills a desire to be recognized for one's accomplishment and a sense of friendly (and sometimes not-so-friendly) competition and/or teamwork. Many of the same reasons we musicians dedicate our lives to make it happen because its in our souls...the players of these games do it to get a tiny taste of the same electro-chemical stimulation our brain gives our body when we're in a similar situation. As musicians, we shouldn't bash these people who chose to escape their reality by fantasizing about ours, but know that people truly do look at us with awe; that we're able and willing to release our dreams, thoughts, feelings and emotions in the form of music...

cheers!
ap

[Jonathan Kranz]

I'm waiting for Upright Bass Hero myself...

-Jonathan

[Sp3ctre18]

haha...

I'd go for cello hero..... i'd rather have a real cello though. :P

[ToddK]

How 'bout "Contra Bassoon hero" ? :)

The really dangerous games are the online RPG's like World of Warcraft, and stuff like that.

There are people who literally waste their lives away ,playing over 80, 90 hours a week!!

There are cases where people have commited suicide after a few months of this type of behavior.

Pretty sad. And makes Guitar Hero look fairly docile by comparison.