Verdict on EWQLSC with Sonar?

[Kevin J Walke]

Greetings!

I'm very excited about the propect of purchasing EWQLSC but I am also fairly nervous. I'm running Sonar (will upgrade to 4.0.3 having read various threads on this forum) which is fine but (together with some great enthusiasm in the forums) there seems to be a number of problems getting SC to work properly between the various integral parts (Sonar, SC, WordBuilder et al).

I realise that one of the main reasons for the existence of any forum is to gain help and share knowledge when problems do arise (thus the number of problems posted of course), but my nervousness comes from my own lack of technical expertise. Would I be buying a 'monster' that I will have no idea how to use/control and will just mean I will spend hours of frustration and tears when I can't get it to work as every one else seems to most of the time? A couple of threads say there are simplifications in the pipeline - pehaps I should wait a while before purchasing?

I'm running a machine with two hard-drives (80Gb+120GB) 2.4GHz processor and 2Gb RAM, along with Sonar, Sibelius, Audiophile 2496 soundcard. I'm extremely impressed with the demos I've heard but, as a mid-40's hobbyist (and all the incompetence that goes with that!), would I be setting myself up for a large fall?

I know that any response won't be able to comment on my expertise (or lack thereof) but any thoughts/comments anyone might have would be much appreciated.

Many thanks.

Kevin

[Debinani]

I'm a hobbiest too, with about the same rig you have, using Sonar.
I'll admit, when I got Choirs and got it installed, I had some screaming matches with it - I also still have some lingering technical issues with consonants when using Wordbuilder as a VST in Sonar.
Choirs is *not* a plug-and-go product. The samples are of amazing quality - definitely right up there with EW's other flagship products, but there's a lot of deep water with the WordBuilder. There's a learning curve, and it's pretty steep if you want things to sound just right.

Now, that being said, it's as close as you're going to get to a choir in a box - technical issues aside, it's a huge accomplishment, an incredible sample library, and a helluva lot of fun. Also, Nick and Doug seem hell-bent on ironing out Wordbuilder and the library itself when necessary.

In practical use, from a hobbiest's perspective, I'm glad I got Choirs in a bundle with two other astounding EW products (RA and Colossus) - but that's just because I haven't realized the potential of the product yet (I just got Gold too and have had my head in that for a while).

If you're wondering if you'll be floored with technical issues, I'd say no. It's not hard at all to get Choirs up and running in a Sonar session - blissfully easy in fact. And all of us regardless of experience are on the same level when it comes to Wordbuilder, as it's a brand new product. It's really all about the time you can dedicate to learning it and fiddling with it to make it do what you want.

[Doug Rogers]

Also, Nick and Doug seem hell-bent on ironing out Wordbuilder and the library itself when necessary.

That's correct, we discovered a major bug with the cross-fades recently that made it sound 'choppy', however we're currently testing a new version that totally eliminates that problem (a combination of a WordBuilder plus Kompakt update). We have been testing a standalone update and it will take approx. 2 more weeks to finish the plug-in updates (it involved rewriting a lot of code) and then we think it will be much easier for everyone to get smooth results.

The video tutorials should be online very soon also.

Symphonic Choirs/WordBuilder is already getting rave reviews (see the product page), so anything we do to improve it will only make a great product even greater.

- Doug

[Kevin J Walke]

Guys,

Thank you both very much for your (very prompt!) responses. This is just the sort of thing I needed to hear - especially from someone who's using the same sort of set-up as I've got (although obviously I'm extremely jealous that you've also got many other EW products! I am sooo tempted with the bundle offers at the moment), as well as someone who's fixing the bugs (and still taking the time to reply).

I'm thinking I'll leave the purchase for a couple of weeks (we're just about to go on holiday anyway so perhaps that's sensible) and then revisit it towards the end of the month.

I really look forward to the video tutorials (I've always been better with pictures rather than words!) as well as the fixes which I guess will be out soon.

Is WordBuilder something that comes with SC? I've picked up the impression from somewhere that it's an extra cost item.

Thanks again for your replies and I reitterate my comments about SC sounding a great product. Most of my work is currently choral so something like SC is major bonus.

K

[Debinani]

Symphonic Choirs contains the Wordbuilder software as part of the package - no extra cost.

[Kevin J Walke]

Excellent - thanks for the clarification.

K

[XGener8or]

What a coincidence :) I am also using a 2.4ghz CPU, Audiophile 2496 and Sonar. I only have 1gig of RAM but I must say that Choirs works very well. Sometime I seem to run out of RAM if I load big multis, but I managed to get the choirs singing. I had some problems with the Kontakt Only Multis and the big combined "all in one" choirs but when using the regular ones through Kompakt player, they work well.

[Kevin J Walke]

Well, I took the plunge and bought SC and ... WOW!

I'm (obviously) still at the really early stages and not yet using it with a sequencer (Sonar 5 delivery is imminent ... apparently), but I'm dead impressed. I've got some good (basic) results after a reasonably short period of time which, given my general level of (hobbyist) incompetence, is quite an achievement.

I have still got soooo much to learn and some system hiccups that are niggling to sort, but I am pleased I took the plunge. An excellent piece of software - well done guys.

K

[Silver Dragon Sound]

As a Sonar user I've read this thread with a vested interest. I also purchased a bundle and I am diving into softsynths for the first time. I'm still going through the sounds and I'm waiting for EWQLSC as its on back order. I'm glad Sonar appears to be working alright with Symphonic Choirs and I'm glad a few of us will be going through this together in the same boat. Good luck and looking forward to making and hear some great music.

[Kevin J Walke]

Just for complete clarity, I've not yet used Sonar with SC (I've pre-purchased and awaiting release of Sonar5 - I was on version 2.2). But I did (yesterday afternoon) use it with Sibelius for the first time. This was mixed in my results but I'm sure more down to my complete lack of experience/understanding than anything else.

As you say, it's good to have others out there going through similar stages - learning together was always better than battling alone!

Good luck.

K

[Doug Rogers]

Well, I took the plunge and bought SC and ... WOW!

I'm (obviously) still at the really early stages and not yet using it with a sequencer (Sonar 5 delivery is imminent ... apparently), but I'm dead impressed. I've got some good (basic) results after a reasonably short period of time which, given my general level of (hobbyist) incompetence, is quite an achievement.

I have still got soooo much to learn and some system hiccups that are niggling to sort, but I am pleased I took the plunge. An excellent piece of software - well done guys.

K

Kevin,

Thank you for purchasing Symphonic Choirs.

It will save you time to view the tutorials online, and also make sure you download the latest WB and Kompakt updates (or, if you are using Kontakt, the latest files at our support page). We are constantly updating the software to resolve reported issues, and we believe the latest PC versions are pretty solid (MAC updates are nearly finished). Next up, we are adding a pop-down menu of Latin phrases in votox format to the interface. Many Choirs sing in Latin so this should really save some time for busy composers needing anything other than ooo or aaa. You will also be able to add your own phrases to this menu for quick access.

- Doug

[Kevin J Walke]

Doug,

Thanks for your continued input. I've viewed the online tutorials a couple of times and they're really useful. I think going back to them regularly when you understand a little more about what the demonstration means is a good trick.

Unfortunately work keeps getting in the way (and now the badminton season has started!) so I'm not able to spend as much time with my music as I would like. But I will get further and with the support of the forum this is being made much easier. I am an oft-user of choral Latin so I'm looking forward to the Latin additions.

Sonar5 arrived a couple of days ago and I've installed this and spent 30 minutes using it, partly with WB and SC, with mixed results but I emphasise that this is going to be my own shortfall of expertise rather than any problems (I'm sure).

I'll keep you updated and no doubt be returning here often for help!

Best wishes,

K

[sghoughton]

Kevin,

Thank you for purchasing Symphonic Choirs.

It will save you time to view the tutorials online, and also make sure you download the latest WB and Kompakt updates (or, if you are using Kontakt, the latest files at our support page). We are constantly updating the software to resolve reported issues, and we believe the latest PC versions are pretty solid (MAC updates are nearly finished). Next up, we are adding a pop-down menu of Latin phrases in votox format to the interface. Many Choirs sing in Latin so this should really save some time for busy composers needing anything other than ooo or aaa. You will also be able to add your own phrases to this menu for quick access.

- Doug

Doug,

What might be useful is to integrate that dropdown list with the online database - so you can sync it the odd time to get the lastest updates of just that list - and maybe make it bi-drectional so you can upload your own - then have a voting system in the wb central database so you could just download the ones that have say 4/5 stars or some threshhold the user specifies.

steve

[Doug Rogers]

Doug,

What might be useful is to integrate that dropdown list with the online database - so you can sync it the odd time to get the lastest updates of just that list - and maybe make it bi-drectional so you can upload your own - then have a voting system in the wb central database so you could just download the ones that have say 4/5 stars or some threshhold the user specifies.

steve

What we are providing initially are the latin phrases, but you can add or remove phrases. Clearly, if the list gets too long it will be difficult to manage, so having it user customizable is a good solution we believe.

- Doug

[woodshedstudio]

This off-topic I know, but for anyone using Sonar with SC/WB - I can't type the letter "r" from my computer keyboard!? Using WB standalone the "r" key works, so the problem must be with in sonar I guess. Can anybody think a reason why this would be?

Also, could someone point me toward a good description of how to use WB as standalone but still drive it from a sonar sequence? The manual is just vague enough (or more likely I'm just stupid enough) - it just says connect this port to that port, etc...but I don't see these "ports" listed as choices in the various MIDI I/O's.

Really, other than the "r" thing, I'm creeping along nicely with the software - things are slowly starting to work and make sense.

[Debinani]

This off-topic I know, but for anyone using Sonar with SC/WB - I can't type the letter "r" from my computer keyboard!? Using WB standalone the "r" key works, so the problem must be with in sonar I guess. Can anybody think a reason why this would be?

Also, could someone point me toward a good description of how to use WB as standalone but still drive it from a sonar sequence? The manual is just vague enough (or more likely I'm just stupid enough) - it just says connect this port to that port, etc...but I don't see these "ports" listed as choices in the various MIDI I/O's.

Really, other than the "r" thing, I'm creeping along nicely with the software - things are slowly starting to work and make sense.

Sonar 4.0.3 corrects the issue with typing r and space and other reserved characters into the Wordbuilder dxi.

As to connecting it standalone - what you need is a virtual midi port - the manual has a link in it for a number of free ones - I use Maple Midi's driver. Virtual midi port out from Sonar to Wordbuilder, virtual midi port from Wordbuilder to Choirs.
The real trick is figuring out how to record the output from the standalone Choirs back into Sonar. If you're using just one machine you need to find a way to route the audio out from Choirs back into Sonar. I have yet to actually try and tackle this as I'm using a consumer sound card.

[woodshedstudio]

Thanks Debinani, nice to know I'm not alone with this "r" thing - I thought I was losing my mind when one key on the keyboard didn't work... I'll look for that update to Sonar.

I'll also look for a virtual MIDI port - must admit this one slipped by me. Never even knew there was such a thing. I guess all my other stand-alone's work fine with out it, so it was never a problem before!

[woodshedstudio]

OK, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong - I downloaded a virtual MIDI port (actually three different ones. I'm having the same problem with all. I don't seem to have a problem if I'm just playing from the keyboard, but as soon as I try to play a sequence I can't get away from having MIDI feedback loops and then lock-ups.

I've been going directly from the manual (about 80 times now) and I can't find what I'm doing wrong?

Even when just playing the keyboard, I'm still going through Sonar - just not playing any sort of sequence. My main concern is that I seem to be able to control WB better if I use it standalone, but without these virtual MIDI ports working that doesn't seem like a possibility.

I'm sure I musdt be doing something wrong but I don';t know what it would be.

If someone that is using sonar with SC/WB via virtual MIDI ports could give me some pointers it would be much appreciated?

[Kevin J Walke]

OK, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong - I downloaded a virtual MIDI port (actually three different ones. I'm having the same problem with all. I don't seem to have a problem if I'm just playing from the keyboard, but as soon as I try to play a sequence I can't get away from having MIDI feedback loops and then lock-ups.

If someone that is using sonar with SC/WB via virtual MIDI ports could give me some pointers it would be much appreciated?

I'm using Sonar5 and I also had these feedback loops. However (and this is from memory - I'm not at my music PC, I'm at work [shame!]), I'm pretty sure I wasn't using SC/WB properly. What works for me is as follows:

1. Set up your sequence in Sonar (needs to have the latest Sonar update if using version 4);

2. Using the Synth Rack load up SC

3. Load WB into the effects bin for the relevant track

Voila!

I've loaded MidiYoke as the virtual port/connector(s) but I'm not sure you need to do this if you're using SC/WB as a DXi plugin.

Hope this helps (assuming it's right - I think it is, from memory).

Kevin

[woodshedstudio]

Thanks Kevin - yes, I have been using it like that also. What I can't seem to make work; is using WB standalone with sequence.

I do like the bigger interface of the standalone version - but my main reason is because using WB as an effect bin, I have a lot of problems with consonants. Seems I spend about 99% of my time editting velocities trying to make the consonants heard but not too loud. In the standalone (at least directly played from keyboard) the consonants sound fine with no editting.

[RickH]

As to connecting it standalone - what you need is a virtual midi port - the manual has a link in it for a number of free ones - I use Maple Midi's driver. Virtual midi port out from Sonar to Wordbuilder, virtual midi port from Wordbuilder to Choirs.
Off-topic, but does anybody know what happened to marblesound.com (the site that provides the Maple Virtual cable)? I can't access the site. I'd like to try the Maple driver. RIght now I'm using Midi Yoke and it's less than stable for me.

R.
==

[Stefan Podell]

Off-topic, but does anybody know what happened to marblesound.com (the site that provides the Maple Virtual cable)? I can't access the site. I'd like to try the Maple driver. RIght now I'm using Midi Yoke and it's less than stable for me.

R.
==

That site disappeared a few weeks back. You can get the Maple driver here:

http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/MapleVMCv352.zip

- Stefan

[Eddy]

I do like the bigger interface of the standalone version - but my main reason is because using WB as an effect bin, I have a lot of problems with consonants. Seems I spend about 99% of my time editting velocities trying to make the consonants heard but not too loud. In the standalone (at least directly played from keyboard) the consonants sound fine with no editting.

It is actually possible to play through the keyboard with the plug-in version? or is one forced to use the standalone version for it?

[Eddy]

The real trick is figuring out how to record the output from the standalone Choirs back into Sonar. If you're using just one machine you need to find a way to route the audio out from Choirs back into Sonar. I have yet to actually try and tackle this as I'm using a consumer sound card.


Have you actually managed to tackle this? I have a similar problem and I'd be very interested to know.