Alcohol and Music

[Lostin Space]

MODERATORS - please feel free to delete this post if inappropriate

This is not meant to be a anti- or pro alcohol debate. Its a music forum. Just some viewpoints made in very sober condition, cause we`re all people in here (and adults if so of course, or else you must not drink alcohol. Its not legal if your not adult, and not healthy or right. None of the viewpoints in this thread are made by professional health experts, and the moderators and the owners of this forum has nothing to do with this thread in any way).

Alcohol may have (?) the ability to make you feel your creating some really cool stuff; then, next day, some of the magics gone like the wind when listening to it.

"Where was I? These overload drums with velocity 127 are not cool on top of the piano with velocity 14. And that solo french horn, urgh; do you think a real person can blow about 5 minutes without breating? And what the xxxx; your own voice with megaphone sounding like a grandmother on the deathbed = Still Not Cool!!"

Other times, though, the stuff can make you compose some of the most beautiful musicpieces you`ve ever written, and ever will. The next day you still agree, and take your hat of. You just made some incredible stuff there. Actually borderline-genius.

Reason I want to air viewpoints on the matter?

Well, we have all been there; some drinks at a party, down town late at night, or perhaps just a redwine on the couch with your loved one with Bach in the air (on the g-string): You just have this awesome brilliant idea - lets motherxxxxxx run to your studio and get it down before its too late, and you perhaps sit in there all night, looking at your cool mess, watching to many sigaretts on top of your speakers burning to ashes, composing the music o f y o u r l i f e t i m e, sweating your ears inside your akg-heads, stamping your feet, or perhaps...if your in that mood making a nice funeral-scene in your head with flowers and people at home crying to this composers genius SATB choir or strings, crying your self just a little bit over your beautiful music and how awsome it sounds...(thats you, not me, I dont get goosebumps from my own music) :)

My question is: IS it the music of your lifetime?

Like it or not; there has been a musician or two that tried to combine alcohol with music to bring out the best in`em as artists, and succeded. Of course, I have no idea who.

Viewpoints on this matter (that, if I may, have been questioned by philosophers for milleniums) are very welcome :)

[Andrew Sigler]

Are you drunk now?

[Dave Bourke]

Personally, I prefer my creative spirit to come from the heart and soul, not out of a bottle.

Kind regards.

[A.Leung]

.

"Where was I?)

(refer to handle) :)

[Dannthr]

Some people need something to help them achieve a different perspective--a different mind-state. Drugs and alcohol are sometimes easy methods of achieving this new and different state of mind.

I neither drink, smoke, nor do any sort of drugs.

So I have to rely on my own creative impetus, under the influence of friends, peers, and my own life.

Does this mean my music is better?

No.

I just went about the creative process in a different way.

[kapallmeister]

I drink and smoke.

It's awesome.

[shnurgle]

Substance use has been looked to as a creative catalyst by many of the most revered artistic geniuses in history. Mozart was a wino, Bird was a heroin addict, Nostradamus was tripping out on something every night to induce visions, Berlioz is rumored to have conceived "Fantastique" as a result of substance-induced hallucination, hell even Aaron Sorkin, by his own admission, wrote "American President" in a single weekend by locking himself in a hotel room with a mountain of cocaine. Drugs and alcohol can be detrimental to physical and mental health, but there's no denying that they've had their place in the pantheon of artistic achievement. It always begs the question, what would their work have been like if they'd stayed clean? Better? Worse? That's one for the ages. Some people take drugs to release their inhibitions while creating, claiming that they don't second guess every decision under the influence. They just let it all come out. Then, when sober they look back at what they put on the canvass. A lot of it, maybe, can be removed, but sometimes they find a gem in there that maybe they wouldn't have had the guts to put down had they been sober. Personally, I don't think substance abuse is a good choice especially if you're working under tight deadlines. While it may serve some purpose toward unleashing latent creative impulse, there are just too many other business related things composers need to take care of to allow for being shnarfed out of your gord.

That said, I say we put it to the test. I propose the next Soundsonline forum contest be an all absinthe-induced competition. Let's take that 65% out for a spin, see what it can do.

[Michael Allen]

As far as drugs helping with creativity I have never found alcohol or dope to make me more creative than my 'normal' state. Acid on the other hand I have found to be particularly fruitful. Not anymore mind you. Corporate and advertising jobs combined with a wife and child have changed things a tad.

Michael

[Lostin Space]

I propose the next Soundsonline forum contest be an all absinthe-induced competition. Let's take that 65% out for a spin, see what it can do.

LOL:D

[Dannthr]

I agree with Shnurgle, EW should have a slosher-contest!

[Spinning poo machine]

I have to say, I've seen some crazy threads in this forum, but this... Wow. I don't know what else to say.

I'm going to have to agree with Dannthr, though, drugs/alcohol can become a window for some people to unleash some inexplicable surge of creativity. HOWEVER, I don't support it, and besides, I have found that my creativity absolutely skyrockets when I'm supposed to be doing something besides writing music. Like taking a test, taking a shower, talking to someone, reading a boring book for school, etc.

But no, boozing is NOT OK as a creativity booster for songwriting.

[Dannthr]

I'm not going to lay judgement on other people's choices over that sort of thing. Sometimes I think that real musical geniuses resort to boozing to slow their minds down. When your brain moves so quickly, life just can't keep up. I can appreciate the choice.

Usually when I'm feeling uncreative, I'll take a walk. That usually helps me come up with ideas. When I was writing stories under a deadline for my fiction courses, I would take advantage of essays on literary theory and exploit them as guides for building a story concept.

My writing was usually poor because of how quickly I'd churn out the story, but I was always lauded for my unusual or thought-challenging concepts.

In that respect, I find responding to other peoples art highly inspiring because an artistic dialog is always more thought-challenging than the masturbatory tweedlings of a self-indulged super-solo-rock-star.

No offense to anyone specifically, but there's a time and place for that and usually it's in a concert where people pay to see you stroke your guitar.

I saw a music video off of Eric Clapton's Reptile album and noticed that in no shot was he able to sing AND play guitar at the same time. Of course, he looked doped out, but who knows, he's old. Still, I only felt sorry for him instead of enjoying the music itself, which was less than spectacular.

Some artists burn themselves out, it seems, and some of the harder drugs seem to just help them along.

Old tweakers are always a sorry sight (folks who've done so many psychodelics that they've never really returned from the trip), so I'm not likely going to make an endorsement for any drug.

Healthy living is living with variety and moderation. Addiction is the catalyst for imbalance. So I wouldn't be able to endorse any of the hardcore drugs that lean toward physical dependency.

Getting tanked, I think, is immoderate drinking. I don't think it's a healthy way to live, and I don't think it's a healthy way to inspire one self--but at the same time, I don't care if you get tanked every night.

I have plenty of unhealthy, immoderate influences in my daily routine--like this website! ;) More than 1000 posts? When I could've been writing some tracks? Lame! ;)

[OneThrow]

How would you prove that your composition was aided by the use of liquid enhancement at the time of composition? Posting a picture of the empties wouldn't prove anything.

And the prize for the competition should be a week in rehab. :D

[Lostin Space]

I have to say, I've seen some crazy threads in this forum, but this... Wow. I don't know what else to say.


If you think this thread is crazy, you can not have been around a lot i life; the music industry is stuffed with substance abuse/use, and the history of music is even more stuffed with it (cool english word btw: stuff).

Many really big personalities died from such use, others still going strong one stage at the age of 70+.

Political correctness doesnt fit well with art, nor did anyone say that this was a pro/anti alcohol debate, rather a general discussion around a wellknown subject.

[PNS]

LoL!!! I just listened to a friend of mines' song from 25 years ago "Losing by Fractions. One Fifth at a Time" :D ...a rusty nickle goes to the first one who guesses the genre :cool:

(oh, and before the creative juices start flowing , it is copyrighted) :D

Another good one is "we ain't leavin' till we're heavin', pukin' in the parking lot" by the Dixie Dicks (you think I'm making this sh** up. don't you :D ...I'm not! LOLOLOLOL!!!!)

I guess it just depends on the writer; Bud and JD influenced a LOT of hits....

[Lostin Space]

Sometimes I think that real musical geniuses resort to boozing to slow their minds down. When your brain moves so quickly, life just can't keep up. I can appreciate the choice.

I believe you are right, and thinking back to my old psychology-classes, this reminds me of the possible connection that exist between Bipolar Disorder and music-creativity, wich if I recall it correctly, also has a link to substance abuse.

[OneThrow]

Alchohol free's your inhibitions, so from that point of view it probably allows you to connect more freely with your creative side. To have more joined up thought rather than to be self doubting all the time.

I seriously doubt that those who write music after they have had a few jars do it because of creative reasons, they do it because that's what they've gotten used to. They enjoy it. And sometimes because they have no choice.

The down side of all this is alchohol addiction, and that often destroys.

[Dannthr]

My father was a brilliant folk singer-songwriter who NEVER recorded because he was afraid of commitment, yet he was a rampant alcoholic. He died of advanced COPD (which is one of the worst ways for a singer-songwriter to die), leaving behind only practice tapes and a poetry book.

Could he have been successful?

Christopher Cross asked him to tour with him and open for his band. He declined.

Was he a genius?

He often worked as a plumber or contractor to pay the bills. He was asked to do a job once that you were only supposed to figure out with calculus, but he had no college training whatsoever. Does that make him a genius? Maybe, maybe not. If figuring out calculus scale equations without any formal training in mathematics makes you intelligent, well, ther you go.

He definitely had exceptional guitar skills, perfect pitch, and a poetic sensibility.

Why did he drink?

The best reason I could find for his drinking, which was a major contributor to his death, was Viet Nam. He was a Supply Sergeant, which meant he interacted with the locals a lot. It also meant he achieved the highest rank available to a non-commissioned officer, which is commendable. But he apparently came away from it with nightmares about the locals friendly in the daytime, stalking you at night.


In my opinion, a life-time of alcohol stumped his ability to mature and grow past the horrors of Vietnam and his personal fear of commitment. He was a terrible father, I was estranged from him for something like 18 years, and he started many failed families. I have siblings I've never met.

If he hadn't been a drunk, I do believe he would've been more successful in his life. Hell, who knows, facing his dark-side could've made him even more creative. But his talent was wasted, it's unlikely anyone will hear or appreciate his music (I've been fighting with his most recent ex-wife over his old practice tapes so I could compile them into a catalog of actual music), and that is scary.

I don't drink for so many reasonable reasons and it's funny, when I say I don't drink, people get defensive about their right to drink--they think I'm laying some kind of shallow judgement on them. Of course, that isn't it at all, it's all personal and very complicated.

It's a tragedy, not a celebration, when an artist dies of alcohol or drug addiction. So why condone it? That, I have difficulty understanding. This is a demon of theirs, do we reap benefits when they burn themselves out so quickly? Is it so that we can enjoy their creation while they yo-yo through hell?

It's not all fun, really.

Variety and moderation applies to drinking as well. Hell, I live in the microbrew center of the US. Within 50 miles of here are something like 150 microbrews. That's a lot of beer, that's a lot of really unique flavors. I'm a foodie, I understand beer drinking for taste and I understand the light buzz of a pleasant amount of alcohol--but immoderate drinking is just stupid.

Except for this EW-Tanker Competition! ;)

[peter5992]

Well, I like to say "one glass of red wine a day keeps the doctor away" (there is actually scientific support for that position), and there's many California reds to be enjoyed here, but I should say that it rarely helps me to concentrate on anything - whether it is composing, figuring out how to fix a technical problem, or even to get better lap times on Gran Turismo. I can get some real good creative ideas any place and time, whether half asleep early in the morning, or cycling or running around San Francisco -- really don't need any external stimulants for that.

The smart thing is probably moderation in everything. I believe that Eric Clapton said something similar in a recent interview with Larry King, talking about the wild sixties / seventies. Certainly a healthy and balanced lifestyle is the way to go if you want to have a happy old age (really doesn't make a difference whether you are a rock star or a plumber or computer engineer).

[Dannthr]

Peter, I was just in San Fransisco, and we stopped up north to visit some friends in Santa Rosa before continuing on to National Redwood Park, and you are most definitely in Wine Country! ;) Had some amazing grapes up there too.

[peter5992]

Peter, I was just in San Fransisco, and we stopped up north to visit some friends in Santa Rosa before continuing on to National Redwood Park, and you are most definitely in Wine Country! ;) Had some amazing grapes up there too.

Ha - just got back from Tahoe myself (recovering - just ran three marathons in the past three days). Will take you up on that offer though. ;)

[Andrew Sigler]

Ha - just got back from Tahoe myself (recovering - just ran three marathons in the past three days)


WHAT!?!??!?!

[OneThrow]

Ha - just got back from Tahoe myself (recovering - just ran three marathons in the past three days).

What are you recovering with, an iron lung? :D

[peter5992]

What are you recovering with, an iron lung? :D

No - skipped my usual morning run yesterday (but will go again right now, just got a new pair of shoes). It's an annual tradition, running three marathons in three days all around Lake Tahoe. Great views, but by the end you are pretty pooped (actually you are pretty pooped even after day 1 and it doesn't get much better after that). Didn't even do too bad - 19th overall: http://www.jtltiming.com/results/t-tpl.html.

For the real diehards - or crazies - if you will there is also the "super triple", where you run a marathon on day 1, another marathon on day 2, and on day 3, you start at midnight and run 72 miles, all around Lake Tahoe. For all you guys and galls that have nothing better to do ...

[Michael Allen]

Ha - just got back from Tahoe myself (recovering - just ran three marathons in the past three days). Will take you up on that offer though. ;)


I'm gobsmacked.

I tip my hat to you Peter. That's an amazing achievement. You must really love to run.

[peter5992]

Thank you Michael -

Yes, I really love to run - especially early in the morning. And for me there is no better place to run than San Francisco - I live close the Presidio, and when I go for my morning run, I run through the Presidio - and smell the redwood trees and sometimes see wildlife - then go to Crissy Field and the Marina and slowly see the sun rise over downtown SF -- then back towards the Golden Gate Bridge, and I seen it explode in red colors, in the sunrise against a deep blue sky, and I know it's going to be another beautiful sunny day - not to mention the spectacular views from the Bay Area trail down to the coast.

And that's not all - after my run I usually for a bicycle ride across the GG Bridge into the Marin headlands - trying to get in before the tourists take over the scene - more spectactular views and wildlife (rabbits, California quails, deer, sometimes even coyote, sometimes even in the middle of the road).

Oh yeah, the SF Bay Area is a good place to live.

[OneThrow]

...I run through the Presidio - and smell the redwood trees and sometimes see wildlife - then go to Crissy Field and the Marina and slowly see the sun rise over downtown SF -- then back towards the Golden Gate Bridge, and I seen it explode in red colors, in the sunrise against a deep blue sky, and I know it's going to be another beautiful sunny day - not to mention the spectacular views from the Bay Area trail down to the coast.



Must be inspirational for your music writing. :)

[Dannthr]

Hahah, Peter, if you took a run where I live, this is what you'd see:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Dannthr/boulder_flatirons.jpg

Imagine the early morning sun setting the mountains alight with rich golds and greens!

There are many trails, bikepaths, and parks/open-space where your view could be like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Dannthr/fern_canyon.jpg
this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Dannthr/creek013.jpg
or this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Dannthr/mesa_trail.jpg

[peter5992]

Ooh - that looks good Dan. Boulder is on my shortlist of places to visit. There's so many great states I have yet to visit ...

Yes, it is definitely an inspiration to live a beautiful place.

Here is what I see every morning: http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg153/peter5992/

[MUSE]

Very interesting discussion here.
I think being an artist means to sacrifice your self, your givin your self out to a public that feeds off of your energy. Doesnt have to be alcohol or drugs those are easy even though it mess up many lifes out there. For instance take Bethowen he wrote his best piece when he turned deaf and not in his best time of life. I think usualy artists do their best work without realising when they go through something difficult.

[peter5992]

Very interesting discussion here.
I think being an artist means to sacrifice your self, your givin your self out to a public that feeds off of your energy. Doesnt have to be alcohol or drugs those are easy even though it mess up many lifes out there. For instance take Bethowen he wrote his best piece when he turned deaf and not in his best time of life. I think usualy artists do their best work without realising when they go through something difficult.

Well, that is a romantic view that is somewhat similar to that of the "starving artist". In the long run though I would think it is better to keep both feet on the ground and just do your thing - music has become such a commodity these days, you are not going to do yourself or anyone a big favor if you always have to go through some kind of crisis in order to be creative. You are going to burn yourself out that way, and probably sooner than later. Not worth it imho.

[OneThrow]

I think it is best to seperate an artist's lifestyle from their musical output as hard as it may be. And judge the music on its own merits. In the end that is how it will be judged.

If someone went through hell to create something, then it makes an interesting story and I applaud their achievement, but in the end it is the quality of the music that decides.;) I think.

[andorascendor]

Regardless of what chemical one may have in their system, I have never met a composer/song writer who was incapable of creating something great sober...if your drunk or high I think it can wiggle the brainpan around a bit and make some decisions different- just think of what a person does when they are drunk in a social situation...some people lose inhibition, some get violent, some get horny...just apply that idea to the creative process. If im wasted I may make a phrase in the music in haste, by-passing some invisible rule in my head. If it sounds good the next day, well than the chemical did something alright. I like to write with a glass of wine in my hand but historically, when trying to write wasted I just end up with some really loud stuff that sounds terrible the next day.

Thinking conceptually where and what a piece will be- now, that is a different story. Write in a journal everyday. Sober and wasted. A big difference. Mostly deleterious, sometimes fruitful- but often times different thus opening up a new avenue of creative thought. This is somewhat not to common but common enough for me to talk about it.

Performance: Now performance with chemicals, that is another monster fer me. I've toured all around the globe and played thousands of shows- many of them totally wasted. Sometimes, it totally worked and I was able to not think about what I was doing- freeing me up to do whatever. Some good results...some bad times...

so.....

composing: mostly bad

performance: sometimes good results. A pity though...

Truth is that through-out time some of the best works of art have been made by the manic depressives, addicts, schizos...and we all know this. Everyone takes Van Gogh's ear for granted. Or Poe. Byron, Barber, Keats, Satie, Wilde...I could name thousands in every creative endeavor be it architecture (Frank L W), painting, music, prose, etc....

that just proves that there is a clear, tangible relationship between chemicals/brain and the creative process.

My 2 cents

[Kaatza_Music]

I often drink beer when I am in my studio. But you can only drink so much when you have both hands on the keyboard or a guitar, so it's not like I am getting plastered. Of course, I am a Canadian, so drinking beer is one of my main passtimes :) When I was much younger we used to get really stoned and play, and it seemed like we played better, but that was a matter of perception I think. I have lots of live recordings from back then, but haven't listened to them in years. I still occasionally like a little herb to puff on, but usually after I am done working and in listening mode. And that doesn't happen that often anymore. I am 54 now, so I guess I am slowing down. ;)

[Jeff Hayat]

I often drink beer when I am in my studio. But you can only drink so much when you have both hands on the keyboard or a guitar...


When is your birthday? I am going to get you one of these:

http://www.zymetrical.com/images/products/beer-football-helmet.jpg

[Kaatza_Music]

When is your birthday? I am going to get you one of these

Ha ha! Good one!! And you could even stick a joint in one side. Unfortunately I just had my birthday. Maybe next year :)

[fourteentoone]

I've both composed drunk, performed drunk, and conducted drunk.

I don't recommend the composing and conducting drunk. It didn't work for me. My best composition always comes after a big emotional event, or if there is money involved!!! Money is not my only motivation, but it helps a lot.

As for performing drunk, I actualy find (having recorded it on video) that I perform a lot better than when sober, and other people have said this too. Bizarrely, my piano-playing technique seems to IMPROVE, and my performances are less restrained (obviously).

Can't comment on drugs though! But I'm certain some of my friends at Royal Academy of Music were on all kinds of substances........ Music conservatoires are incredibly hedonistic places. Practise rooms aren't just for practising music.........

[Hardy Heern]

Very interesting idea for a thread! It took a certain amount of courage to start it too. Congratulations! :)

Some very good points have been made. I tend towards mild (if that's possible!) manic/depression, and some say it is both a gift and a curse and I do have an addictive personality too. The truth, for me, is that I get incredibly creative in my 'up periods' and, of course, plumb the depths in my 'low periods'.

It is certainly a 'substance' instability in the brain. Like someone said earlier, as with alcohol, you can think you're turning out something great and you look at it later and think...what a piece of crap! :) Still it feels great at the time! I think that alcohol probably accentuates the mood swings of a ‘normal’ person towards that of a genuine manic/depressive. If I take alcohol the affect of it depends on what part of the cycle I'm in so it would get quite complicated.

I did smoke for the first part of my life but fortunately, I give it up 15yrs ago. I was totally convinced that it helped with my creativity and perhaps it did. I certainly always lit one up to help solve a problem! It is one of my regrets that I never tried drugs in order to experience their effects. Perhaps, it's just as well! :) I did have an opiate following a serious operation though and I enjoyed the most fantastic technicolour dreams! :) So I get the drift! :)

I know someone, a Doctor in the world of science, who literally cannot understand why people do something which would endanger their lives…..”Why do they smoke (take drugs) if they know it does them harm…….why do people over eat………Why do they ride motorbikes….etc etc. I find it extraordinary that educated people can think like this….but the older I get the more I realize the huge amount of variation in folk’s thinking. It’s obvious to me that anyone out of the ordinary should be burnt at the stake or ‘stoned’ to death…..and I don’t mean with drugs! :) Creative people certainly shouldn’t be allowed to compose music for example. :)

As has been said, some of the most wonderful creative output has been made by people who have been under the influence of natural or artificial brain stimulants and/or depressors….so don’t let’s knock it. I notice a certain amount of ‘holier than thou…’ here and there! :)

A thought occurs to me.

In athletics and sport, substances are successfully, but unfairly, used to enhance performance. Perhaps we should apply the same thinking to creative people of all sorts…..Composers, artists, writers, Engineers etc etc. What I suggest is that we have ‘Creativity Police’ carrying out random breathalyzer and substance checks on ‘known’ composers etc. If they fail the checks then the work they are involved with, at the time of the check, should be confiscated and noted in the appropriate Offender Register. Their public output would be monitored so that if that work ever came to light it could be destroyed. This would create a level playing (creative) field.

This leads me to another of my thoughts which is ‘how strange it is to worship talented people in all walks of life….athletes, sportsman, musicians/artists or WHY. After all, by random selection, they have just been born with the correct physique and type of muscle chemistry to suit the event in which they excel. In that way they are a ‘freak’ (a wholesome one, I hasten to add) of nature.
The creative person is similarly born with a particular brain chemistry which makes them excel too. These people are just plain lucky….why on earth should they be adored and have huge amounts of money thrust on them? Food for thought…. Perhaps?

Hick.....:eek: