Sibelius, Finale or Overture?

[The Magic Hoof]

At this point in time, which of these would you use?

For my personal setup, I want to compose/arrange my scores in notation software while using VST instruments along with it. I'll be running vista along with old Kontakt/Kompakt players, but a couple of PLAY libraries as well. I'm not sure if any of these will support PLAY since it's 64bit or not.


I'm leaning toward either Overture or Sibelius, so if you had to choose between the two, which one would you go for?

[michaelshumway]

Ok, I have substantial experience with both Finale and Sibelius, which I recommend you get one of the two. In my opinion Sibelius is a better all around solution, better interface, etc... but Finale has some features that until Sibelius implements, I can't do without. So I use Finale 2009 right now with the Play engine. The human playback feature is great, a little buggy, but makes a difference. Also, the "tempo tap" feature is really the best thing going for Finale when it comes to VST mockup realism. If Sibelius implemented a tempo tap feature, then I would probably go back to Sibelius. Both are great products though. My $0.02

[Vincent Bergbahn]

Ok, I have substantial experience with both Finale and Sibelius, which I recommend you get one of the two. In my opinion Sibelius is a better all around solution, better interface, etc... but Finale has some features that until Sibelius implements, I can't do without. So I use Finale 2009 right now with the Play engine. The human playback feature is great, a little buggy, but makes a difference. Also, the "tempo tap" feature is really the best thing going for Finale when it comes to VST mockup realism. If Sibelius implemented a tempo tap feature, then I would probably go back to Sibelius. Both are great products though. My $0.02

your orchestral demo reel is the music from Apollo 13 ???

[michaelshumway]

your orchestral demo reel is the music from Apollo 13 ???

I used Apollo 13 as a base for it. I wrote that quite a while ago. But, it's not Apollo 13...

[Sam Ples]

My favorite Finale feature, in addition to Human Playback, is the ability to assign the four Layers available on each staff to four different MIDI channels. I can have my violin 1 staff with Layer 1 routed to an arco sustain sound on channel 1, Layer 2 routed to a marcato sound on channel 2, pizzicato on Layer 3 routed to channel 3 and Tremolo on Layer 4 routed to channel 4. This keeps the number of staves from getting out of control. If you are porting the file to a sequencer for recording, the part will be in 4 different MIDI channels when loaded into a sequencer.

[peter5992]

Well, I only know Sibelius, so no personal experience of all different notation programs, but I can warmly recommend it for a variety of reasons:

1. I can use all of my virtual libraries (and there's plenty of those, all the major EW and NI libraries) without too much trouble as plugins. That includes using Sibelius and EWQLSO in a 64 bit environment, and there is also a soundset for Play, by the way (being finalized). And I can also use them in a 32 bit environment, either as VST plugin on the same computer, or in a master / slave setup. (If there is trouble it's usually my own ignorance).

2. The Sibelius chat page is super - full of great people willing to help with any question / query, no matter how arcane or exotic. Kind of similar to the EW forums.

3. It is the most widely used notation software program with the most features.

Again, this is my own experience -- but I really love Sibelius (in fact, after discovering Sibelius last year, I quit my job and went back to the music biz fulltime - crazy as it may sound).

[The Magic Hoof]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm undecided as of right now... I'll be purchasing either Finale or Sibelius most likely.

I'll be using Kontakt with everything from the CCC, and also PLAY Platinum Complete. When SC comes out in its PLAY version, then I'll be using that as well along with everything else.


There's really no way I'm going to be able to do EVERYTHING with just Sibelius, so of course I'll have to export all of the midis into my sequencer (probably Cubase) for the final tweaking and editing, etc.


Sooo... Since I want to take the approach of composing and getting the score done, and then transferring it all into a sequencer -- with my setup, would Sibelius or Finale be best?


Another thing I'm afraid of is buying Sibelius 5 right now and then having a new version come out rather soon and having to pay more to upgrade =/

I'll list what I have below so you can see which one would suit me most.

[The Magic Hoof]

there is also a soundset for Play, by the way (being finalized).


Please elaborate =)



My favorite Finale feature, in addition to Human Playback, is the ability to assign the four Layers available on each staff to four different MIDI channels. I can have my violin 1 staff with Layer 1 routed to an arco sustain sound on channel 1, Layer 2 routed to a marcato sound on channel 2, pizzicato on Layer 3 routed to channel 3 and Tremolo on Layer 4 routed to channel 4. This keeps the number of staves from getting out of control. If you are porting the file to a sequencer for recording, the part will be in 4 different MIDI channels when loaded into a sequencer.


Hmm... This sounds nifty. I'm definitely going to need something like this because of course I'm going to have multiple articulations to fool with.



Can someone elaborate on what the human playback thing is -- how it's beneficial? And also, I'm going to guess that this tap thing can somehow alter the tempo in real time. That's just a guess though.

[peter5992]

Please elaborate =)

Hmm... This sounds nifty. I'm definitely going to need something like this because of course I'm going to have multiple articulations to fool with.

Can someone elaborate on what the human playback thing is -- how it's beneficial? And also, I'm going to guess that this tap thing can somehow alter the tempo in real time. That's just a guess though.

The soundset is a set of instructions that makes Sibelius "talk" to sampled libraries, meaning that if you enter "pizz." in your score, playback will actually be pizzicato, not arco / legato. There are soundsets for the built in Sibelius Essentials and a bunch of other libraries by Sibelius and other manufacturers (VSL Special Edition, Xsample Chamber Edition), but now there's also a (beta) soundset for EWQLSO. See this thread on Sibelius:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=410138&groupid=3&

That will save you a lot of time, using keyswitched instruments - just plug in the keyswitches and off you go. Enter dynamics, techniques, and they will all play back exactly as you enter them - without needing to worry about midi commands.

Live playback is where you hook up your midi keyboard to Sibelius, and notes are entered in an intelligent way, ie not fully quantized but with live playback velocities (settings are customizable). Apparently this works much better than the traditional "quantizing" - but don't press me too much on details, I am a lousy keyboard player and rarely use my midi keyboard (usually enter notes manually).

[Nanto Warrior]

I dont know what others are using but I'll tell you right now, Sibelius is nothing short of fantastic. Its intuitive, its convienient, its just WORKS. I have the occassional problem of it crashing at the WRONG MOMENT....but hey...you cant have your cake and eat it.

(Not all the time anyway.)

I highly recommend Sibelius 3 upwards.

[jloving]

Sibelius. no question.

what's that other one called? :D

Jon

[The Magic Hoof]

A big problem of mine in the past is workflow. I've had tons of problems with workflow because I was used to just using a manual piano roll in a sequencer, or recording a midi in a sequencer.

It's a relief to hear that Sibelius can be tied with VST instruments. It'll save me time like you said (remember how I said my workflow always got interrupted?).

By the way, the link didn't work since I'm not a member.


Anyhow, I'm thinking Sibelius is going to be the way to go. I kind of had an inclination that it'd win.


A couple of last questions:

Since EW has the new PLAY interface and it works a bit differently, will we be able to somehow set it up to send CC codes where needed? For example, a CC68 code with a value of 127 to turn on the legato feature where it's needed. If so, I'm 100% completely sold.


Nowww... Just have to place an order. the price is $500 from most places. It'd be nice to maybe find it on sale somewhere =)


Thanks for all of your help guys!

[jloving]

A couple of last questions:

Since EW has the new PLAY interface and it works a bit differently, will we be able to somehow set it up to send CC codes where needed? For example, a CC68 code with a value of 127 to turn on the legato feature where it's needed. If so, I'm 100% completely sold.


Yes, my soundset :)

The soundset handles much of that automatically depending on what patch is selected, and a number of other things. It's also possible to manually enter these into the score using hidden text. Your example would be entered as ~C68,127.

You should still be able to read the Sib chat page, you'll have to "View as Guest" - here's my post:

Hey folks :-)

Word has spread in regard to the soundset I've written for the latest version of Symphonic Orchestra, and as things are coming together now I thought I'd let everyone know what is happening.

For those who don't know, I am keeping an 'update' mailing list, which serves much the same purpose as this message does, but contains periodic information on where things are at. I don't expect it to be much longer, but if you'd like to be added, feel free to send me a message.

----
In addition to the soundset, here's what's being put together:

-custom staff/instrument types
-drum maps for all percussion patches
-expanded dictionary, articulation, symbols and line playback instructions
-score (manuscript) templates with corresponding .ewi files, to help streamline the process of setting each project up.
----

This first soundset will work with SO Gold Complete, Platinum Complete, and Platinum Plus Complete.

If you are using the Silver Play version you'll have a slightly longer wait, but there will be a soundset for Silver as well.

----
For Kontakt 2/Kontakt 3 (not Kompakt) users:

If you have not/will not be upgrading to the Play engine, full soundsets for all versions of the NI powered Orchestra will be made available after the Play soundsets are finished.
----

I have partial soundsets written for other Play titles as well, and will resume work on these after everything related to SO is finished.

My Best,
Jon

[The Magic Hoof]

I've seen you around this forum helping people a LOT with everything. If you're doing all of this stuff for free -- like creating the mappings for PLAY libraries in Sibelius, then by all means man... that's a reason for me to buy Sibelius on its own.


Seriously. Thanks for that. I'll be placing an order for it in the next hour or so =)


By the way jloving - I meant to type Jon, not Jom in the private message title :P

[jloving]

I've seen you around this forum helping people a LOT with everything. If you're doing all of this stuff for free -- like creating the mappings for PLAY libraries in Sibelius, then by all means man... that's a reason for me to buy Sibelius on its own.


Seriously. Thanks for that. I'll be placing an order for it in the next hour or so =)


By the way jloving - I meant to type Jon, not Jom in the private message title :P

Yes all of this will be available for free - but because you typed my name wrong, you're going to be charged ;):D

If you think this is a reason to buy Sib - just wait until you meet Daniel Spreadbury :) I don't know where Sibelius got him from, but he's awesome - saved my butt many times.

Jom ;)

[The Magic Hoof]

Hey Jom, I just read your message.

Jom, I was searching this forum earlier for 'Finale' and I came across a post or two where you said that Daniel is worth the price of the program alone. Well, Jom, I think he's worth only half now because of what you're doing.

Whenever I run into Daniel, I'll tell him "you and Jom are a couple of reasons why I went with Sibelius over Finale. Jon? Nono, Jom."

By the way, I just placed an order with SameDayMusic. It'll be here Friday most likely.


Thanks for your help, Jom!

:p

[chest]

Sibelius ... the price is $500 from most places. It'd be nice to maybe find it on sale somewhere
That's surprising - in the UK, it's nearer £500. Is the $500 for an educational version? If not, where could it be bought for that price? And do you think it really is likely to be on sale for even less?

[michaelshumway]

Can someone elaborate on what the human playback thing is -- how it's beneficial? And also, I'm going to guess that this tap thing can somehow alter the tempo in real time. That's just a guess though.

Human Playback is Finale's playback engine. It automatically puts different aspects into a midi performance that a live player would tend to do, and creates a more realistic effect. For instance, decrescendo at the end of a phrase, slurs create a legato, slight tempo fluctuations, and a whole slew of other features. Tempo Tap allows you to literally hit your space bar along with the song and "record" the metronome track. Very useful for creating a more human-like phrase and avoid the robotic metronome that is unavoidable in Sibelius unless you set a metronome change every beat (and you don't want to do that.... lol)

Like I said, I think Sibelius is a better product. Finale definitely has more "features" as far as shear power goes, regardless of what people say here. You can change EVERY aspect of the score. But, Sibelius is better looking, far more intuitive, and just well thought out software. I might make a fuss with PC fans here, but the two products really remind me of Microsoft vs Apple. Finale (Microsoft) is ugly, nonintuitive, and buggy. Sibelius (Apple) is clean, well designed and thought out. You can do most everything you want in Sibelius and it works, but Finale lets you open the hood and look out all the crap underneath. That's why I still use Finale. It has a couple of things that I can't do without for now. I just barely upgraded to Finale 2009 a little bit ago and at the same time Sibelius was having a crossgrade promotion for the same price as the Finale upgrade... It KILLED me getting Finale again. Love Sibelius, but not yet ;)

When the cards have been played and all is said and done though, both products are excellent. They are both used by everyone in the industry and there's lots of people in both camps. Finale has better customer support than Sibelius. Sibelius only troubles it's users with a new version every other year, but Finale (MakeMusic) comes out with a somewhat "petty" upgrade every year. So, there's good and bad to both. You just need to decide what you want to do with it. If I was just doing orchestration, I would take Sibelius anyday. But if you're trying to make the most realistic mockup possible before you send it to your DAW, then I think Finale's MIDI control is better.

Also, the comment about soundsets for EW in Sibelius also holds true to Finale. I've created my own custom soundset so that all my articulations control different patches in Play. You can do all of that in Finale.

Hope this helps.

[The Magic Hoof]

That's surprising - in the UK, it's nearer £500. Is the $500 for an educational version? If not, where could it be bought for that price? And do you think it really is likely to be on sale for even less?

It's $600 on the official site, but every place I looked at in the USA has it for $499. And yep, it's the full version. I ended up getting it from SameDayMusic. Musician's Friend (Guitar Center too) and Zzounds all have it for $499. The only way to get it cheaper from somewhere would be if a store were having some special blowout sale or something, but I didn't find anywhere with one going on.

I also picked up the Kontakt 3 Crossgrade edition for another $250 while I was at it... no more presents for a while =)

[The Magic Hoof]

michaelshumway - much thanks for the reply. Appreciated.


The human playback thing you speak of sounds perfect for what I want to do. As of now, I'm glad that I did go with Sibelius because it'll let me get the hang of things first. In the end I'll want to create the most realistic mockups as possible, so I can always just crossgrade to Finale in the future. In fact, the two features you're talking about in Finale seem worth it alone. I can see why you went with Finale.


Nowwww.... Let's just hope that the new Sibelius will include those two features ;)

Anyone know when a new version may be due out?

[peter5992]

The human playback thing you speak of sounds perfect for what I want to do. As of now, I'm glad that I did go with Sibelius because it'll let me get the hang of things first. In the end I'll want to create the most realistic mockups as possible, so I can always just crossgrade to Finale in the future. In fact, the two features you're talking about in Finale seem worth it alone. I can see why you went with Finale.

Nowwww.... Let's just hope that the new Sibelius will include those two features ;)

Anyone know when a new version may be due out?

Well, one person who would know is Daniel Spreadbury, their senior product manager - he is the brains behind the more recent architecture changes of Sibelius and online on the chat page all the time, and like Jon said, he is a really great guy and extremely knowledgeable. But he won't tell you, he is under instructions not to release specific information about future upgrades (there are legal / accounting reasons for this, Sibelius is owned by Avid, a public company - I won't bother you with the legal details). Many companies have the policy btw, for many good reasons. But Sibelius was recently upgraded to 5.2.5 (free upgrade for sib 5 users) with many improvements.

By the way, Sibelius already has many features that are probably very similar to the "human playback" feature in Finale:

- you can alter the settings for Playback, tweaking the 'espressivo' settings (choosing between meccanico / sensa express / poco espress / espressivo / molto espress, all of which affect the degree by which the dynamic signs in the score are interpreted) (and if you don't like the standard settings, you can customize those);

- you can alter the rhythmic playback by choosing different settings for 'rubato', changing the way sibelius plays back the score by interpreting the tempo signs in a more or less dramatic fashion;

- like I mentioned before, it has a really clever way of handling midi input from keyboards;

- and there's hundreds more features.

Just wait and see -- you will like it -- and once you get the hang of it, you will never look back. The strong point is indeed its intuitive nature - I got it myself last year (knowing exactly nothing about midi), could immediately work with it - was immediately hooked.

[jloving]

When the cards have been played and all is said and done though, both products are excellent...[snip] ...You just need to decide what you want to do with it. If I was just doing orchestration, I would take Sibelius anyday. But if you're trying to make the most realistic mockup possible before you send it to your DAW, then I think Finale's MIDI control is better.

Nailed it.

Jon

[Peterkjones]

I'm very happy with Finale and its manual playback. Only one problem which maybe someone can help me with. I use it to compose and print off full scores and prepare parts. With large scores, I amalgamate firsts and seconds on one stave to save space for printing on A3, using layer one for first (clarinet-say) and layer two for second. However, if I need a unison accidental - let's say both instruments playing a Bflat in C major dom. - the programme prints a flat for both instruments resulting in a double-flat in the printout! I can get rid of this by using a natural in layer two, when Finale prints only the single flat but on human play-back I'm given both flat and natural with horrible results, and the accidental is missed out when I "extract parts." It makes looking for typos in heavily chromatic scores a bit of a nightmare. I know it's not strictly EW, but anyone got a solution? Best

[Kostas]

I'm very happy with Finale and its manual playback. Only one problem which maybe someone can help me with. I use it to compose and print off full scores and prepare parts. With large scores, I amalgamate firsts and seconds on one stave to save space for printing on A3, using layer one for first (clarinet-say) and layer two for second. However, if I need a unison accidental - let's say both instruments playing a Bflat in C major dom. - the programme prints a flat for both instruments resulting in a double-flat in the printout! I can get rid of this by using a natural in layer two, when Finale prints only the single flat but on human play-back I'm given both flat and natural with horrible results, and the accidental is missed out when I "extract parts." It makes looking for typos in heavily chromatic scores a bit of a nightmare. I know it's not strictly EW, but anyone got a solution? Best

You can go to Documents Options->Accidentals-> and then uncheck "Use Cross-Layer Accidental Positioning", hope that helps

-Kostas

[Peterkjones]

Hi Kostas,
Excellent!! Many thanks - wonder why it's not in the user manual. You should write it!