Dark Knight Joker theme

[Liam]

Just thought I'd post this as it is kind of interesting. It's a video clip from the Dark Knight DVD showing the creation process for the Joker's theme (http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permalink/m1Z9VV2QZ0PFOL)

EDIT: Just realized maybe I should have posted this in the "Other Music" section : ) Guess it can be moved if need be.

[peter5992]

Interesting Liam - thanks for sharing.

Seems that the Joker Theme is a very far developed D note (both acoustically and electronically). I'd have to review the movie / listen to the score to confirm.

[Jeff Hayat]

Very cool - thanks for posting!

[paulwr]

So that's what the $2 mil to Zimmer buys you............. a couple of VERY intense notes......... gotta be a world record there somewhere. Worked for me, I thought the movie played great.

-Paul

[A.Leung]

Lol. well at least Hans is consistent. It just HAD to be a Cello. :)

[raywong]

There are 2 little screens displaying some color blocks, right under his main Cubase screen. What are they?

[EricWatkins]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing. :)

[Dannthr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dnVlbKgoM

Sometimes I'm not sure if Hans is fooling us...

[givemenoughrope]

There are 2 little screens displaying some color blocks, right under his main Cubase screen. What are they?

+1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dnVlbKgoM


I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone that my amps (http://www.treehousemobile.com/GearDec1ImageReady/AmproSide.jpg) go to 20. (Seriously, i play my guitar through this.)

[playz123]

Re: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dnVlbKgoM"
Thanks for the chuckle, Dan! :) :)

[Jeff Hayat]

There are 2 little screens displaying some color blocks, right under his main Cubase screen. What are they?

Virtual Rubik's Cube.

[slugger]

That Hans video is really tragic. These guys totally convince themselves they were doing something cool. All those amazing images of the joker are met with the most non-spinetingling sounds (not music). It simply does not work. Any composer worth his salt could've written actual music that would make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck SEVERAL times during that video. Gotta blame Chris Nolan for directing Hans into a corner. What a waste. I'm honestly embarrassed for these guys.

[A.Leung]

Your kidding right? You honestly have ZERO appreciation for the amount of work that went into those sound bytes?
Have you ever done any musical sound design of your own?

[Liam]

There are 2 little screens displaying some color blocks, right under his main Cubase screen. What are they?

I believe they are either THIS (http://www.jazzmutant.com/lemur_overview.php) or a custom made touch controller interface similar to it. Being that most of what he uses is custom made, I'm guessing that may be the case.

[Dannthr]

It DOES take a lot of work, actually, it's almost pure elbow grease, in fact, because it's a lot of sound-design--I just wish he wouldn't act like he invented the idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bBK--hhCXc&feature=related

[givemenoughrope]

That Hans video is really tragic. These guys totally convince themselves they were doing something cool. All those amazing images of the joker are met with the most non-spinetingling sounds (not music). It simply does not work. Any composer worth his salt could've written actual music that would make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck SEVERAL times during that video. Gotta blame Chris Nolan for directing Hans into a corner. What a waste. I'm honestly embarrassed for these guys.

I can't say that I completely agree but I agree about 98%.

I think Hans was going in the right direction but basically got about 1/8 of the way there. And, there's no real theme to speak of...pretty much. Cool sounds and string idea but not enough. We need more. I almost feel like a great film is kinda ruined. A noteworthy performance by HL and all it gets is some sound design. Chris Nolan should post TDK online for others to score. Someone ask him to...

[slugger]

Hans and JNH are 2 of my favorite composers so it hurts more so to hear this score. I just don't see the point of a music sound design score for a blockbuster summer movie. I can totally appreciate the work put into it. It sounds great, production-wise. But it lacks depth, completely. I know I tend to only post negative points but that's what makes things interesting around here. I will say that Gladiator and Wyatt Earp are 2 of my favorite all time scores.
I have tremendous respect for both HZ and JNH, but again I think the director is to blame for the overall sound of this score. Poor guy had to listen to all those scratchy sounds on the plane while he flew 1st class to Hong Kong.

[t_l]

That Hans video is really tragic. These guys totally convince themselves they were doing something cool. All those amazing images of the joker are met with the most non-spinetingling sounds (not music). It simply does not work. Any composer worth his salt could've written actual music that would make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck SEVERAL times during that video. Gotta blame Chris Nolan for directing Hans into a corner. What a waste. I'm honestly embarrassed for these guys.



totally disagree... but to each his own. I think the entire score actually is really great. It's minimal, moody and works. It could have turned into a billion note wank fest, pandering to the highbrowed composer snobs but I'm glad they did what they did there.. simple and dirty.

Why can't that cello slowly moving up in tension be a theme? .. I love when sound design and score blur into one musical idea. sounds like a theme to me.

[LFO]

Wow, I thought the sound design approach was great. There were several times when the screeching sent shivers down my spine, most notably when the Joker is telling the female DA about his father and how the Joker got his smile.

Different strokes for different folks is how the world keeps turning 'round. ;)

-Kevin

[slugger]

totally disagree... but to each his own. I think the entire score actually is really great. It's minimal, moody and works. It could have turned into a billion note wank fest, pandering to the highbrowed composer snobs but I'm glad they did what they did there.. simple and dirty.

Why can't that cello slowly moving up in tension be a theme? .. I love when sound design and score blur into one musical idea. sounds like a theme to me.

Agreeing to disagree my friend.

I don't think it's a theme because I can't play it on my piano much less hum it in my head. But I can load the Cello FX sample from my GoldXP library and pretty much duplicate it.

If you are calling me a high-browed composer snob...


thank you

I've earned it.

[t_l]

Agreeing to disagree my friend.

I don't think it's a theme because I can't play it on my piano much less hum it in my head. But I can load the Cello FX sample from my GoldXP library and pretty much duplicate it.

If you are calling me a high-browed composer snob...


thank you

I've earned it.

A theme has nothing to do with being able to re create it on your piano or hum it in your head. It has to do with emotion. I feel that it captures that emotion. Raw, dirty, punk..

Welcome to the 21'st century. Music is way beyond notes on a piano whether you like it or not.

Mind=open

[ppjmd]

Music is way beyond notes on a piano whether you like it or not.

Mind=open

There's a big difference between an "open mind" and a hole in the head ;-)

Just messin' with ya - but really, without getting into a philosophical discussion, do you honestly believe that? If any sound qualifies as music, then aren't we all out of a job? Think about it...

[Nayi]

"I didn't want to write a summer blockbuster happy indulgent score, I wanted something that was truly provocative and people could truly hate..."

I think that's pretty clear.


Also don't except any conventialisms from the cinema of Christopher Nolan.


This was pretty much the only route a new Batman film could go - a frank miller batman.

[Nayi]

There's a big difference between an "open mind" and a hole in the head ;-)

Just messin' with ya - but really, without getting into a philosophical discussion, do you honestly believe that? If any sound qualifies as music, then aren't we all out of a job? Think about it...


"music are sounds organized by another human being" stockhausen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aYT1Pwp30M


Is music just a job to you? :)

[slugger]

Yeah, I feared we'd wind up defining 'music' and 'theme' in no time at all.

[peter5992]

Wow - whenever it comes to summer blockbusters or Hans Zimmer, it seems that people around here have really strong opinions.

I really liked the movie when I first saw it. Just ordered the blu ray disk so I can review the whole thing at my leasure.

At this point I do want to say though that the overall movie experience is not just determined by the visual action on the screen, or the music, but just as much by the special (sound) effects. I would not underestimate the effect of that at any time, and in fact, the close interaction of sound design and music is a really great tool to take movies to the next stage.

[t_l]

There's a big difference between an "open mind" and a hole in the head ;-)

Just messin' with ya - but really, without getting into a philosophical discussion, do you honestly believe that? If any sound qualifies as music, then aren't we all out of a job? Think about it...

I honestly feel it opens up more jobs and more possibilities personally. I like to experiment with more than just a piano and a set of theory rules.

If holding one note for 2 minutes fits with the moving images I'm going to do it. Does that make me less of a composer?

[Paul Russell]

It's great incidental music for the action over the movie, but calling it a 'theme' is a bit of a stretch, IMHO, as there's no melodic line running through it.

[ELP71]

I don't have a problem with this.

I think I have more of a problem with the stale, now formulaic sustained-horn-chord-cluster schtick of most modern film scores in films of this type. If I hear another gong scrape or stopped horn crescendo I'm gonna puke. I would love a return to the grandiose, melodic film scores that we all remember and love, but guys aren't really doing that in big movies right now.

The point is that it fit the movie. In the paradigm of modern film scoring for action/thrillers, I thought this score was more on point than many others I have been exposed to recently.

I don't have a problem with Hans Zimmer getting excited about his work. Beats the hell out of Elton John's attitude of 'if I work on it more than thirty minutes its a waste of time'.

[givemenoughrope]

It DOES take a lot of work, actually, it's almost pure elbow grease, in fact, because it's a lot of sound-design--I just wish he wouldn't act like he invented the idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bBK--hhCXc&feature=related

Of course he's going to act like he's invented it. That's Hans being a self-promoter. Nothing wrong with that. At that rate he pretty much acts like he's invented film scoring too. If anyone "invented" sound design:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDhAEfAJPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDX_CS3NsTk

I think that Amon Tobin's score for Splinter Cell confirms that pretty much 99% of music in films/tv that has dance-oriented/electronic/dNb/IDM/etc. (ala Harry Gregson-Williams) are what I've always thought they were: awful pastiche. It's difficult to deny the real thing.




I don't think it's a theme because I can't play it on my piano much less hum it in my head.



I can't exactly dink out on the piano much from Crumb's Black Angels either.


But I can load the Cello FX sample from my GoldXP library and pretty much duplicate it.



That's an exaggeration. Musical sound design is no easy task. It IS elbow grease.

[givemenoughrope]

I don't have a problem with this.

I think I have more of a problem with the stale, now formulaic sustained-horn-chord-cluster schtick of most modern film scores in films of this type. If I hear another gong scrape or stopped horn crescendo I'm gonna puke.


Amen.

I would love a return to the grandiose, melodic film scores that we all remember and love, but guys aren't really doing that in big movies right now.


There is so much room in between and beyond though that has already been touched upon by greats like Goldsmith and Morricone. If you haven't already, see Benjamin Button.



The point is that it fit the movie. In the paradigm of modern film scoring for action/thrillers, I thought this score was more on point than many others I have been exposed to recently.



Agreed but for me personally and for a movie this cool, it needed about 300% more. Not in notes but in content. Fitting the movie is not enough for me as a fan. HZ and JNH and the biggest in the biz with teams under them and all they came up with are a few unique sounds and the rest is wallpaper. I am starting to think that it was hindered by Nolan and the suits in addition to being a 'too many cooks' thing b/c it's not like these guys can't unfold a story with their music. JNH score for Signs is the first thing that comes to mind in that respect. I dunno...just the opinion of a mildly disappointed fan.

[hualee]

I agree with a lot of what people are saying here and partly disagree with others...

However, I think all of us completely forget something I was reminded about a few days ago....

WE KNOW TOO MUCH!! Therefore, we know all the little tricks they're pulling, all the possibilities that were open, and all the things we could have done better....

The purpose of a score in a film is to empower what's being showed on the screen, that being said, does a character as random and chaotic like The Joker really "have" a theme? He doesn't really, and when it comes to it, the character is about absolute chaos, it's not suppose to make sense. I personally believe they're justified in creating such a theme for The Joker.

When the average person watches this film, they don't hear the gimmicks we hear, heck they don't even notice it's what's putting them on edge. The majority of audiences still don't realize that all these psycho-acoustic effects are what's truly behind the shivers down their spines.

Just remember, the score isn't about the "music" = )

[White Noise 2]

A theme has nothing to do with being able to re create it on your piano or hum it in your head. It has to do with emotion. I feel that it captures that emotion. Raw, dirty, punk..

No. This is incorrect. Musically speaking, a theme must consist of some kind of melody which can be a collection of motifs or "short" themes which form a broader "large theme". As I've said in previous posts, a motif is a collection of a few notes. Therefore, 1 note doesn't constitute a theme.

The Joker "sound" is not a theme. But its a very cool sound.


Welcome to the 21'st century. Music is way beyond notes on a piano whether you like it or not.

Mind=open

True. But it must consist at the very least, of some notes...

[slugger]

Well, I'm really glad we got this thread going. It has brought up some great points and it has been rewarding for me to see people post GOOD points both agreeing and disagreeing. I think that alone gives the score some artistic status. After all, it just has to make you feel something.

Given the goal and direction that Hans states for the score, I think I would be very interested to have heard what Jonny Greenwood or John Corigliano or Elliot Goldenthal would've done if they could be paired with a really good sound designer/engineer. But Warner Bros. would never roll the dice like that.

I'm not as old as I think some think I am.

[givemenoughrope]

Given the goal and direction that Hans states for the score, I think I would be very interested to have heard what Jonny Greenwood or John Corigliano or Elliot Goldenthal would've done if they could be paired with a really good sound designer/engineer. But Warner Bros. would never roll the dice like that.



Corigliano paired up with Amon Tobin, Aphex Twin or Lustmord isn't so far-fetched. I mean, they rolled the dice with Nolan directing these Batman films. I never would have expected suits to ok something like that. But don't forget, suits are getting younger too.

[likecmposr]

The movie and score worked. In the end - thats all that counts.

[slugger]

The movie and score worked. In the end - thats all that counts.

I don't think any movie production ends with the composer and director watching their product, turning to each other, saying "well...it works" and then high-fiveing.

I could make it 'work' with a temp score of CDs. No client of mine has ever been happy with a product that just worked.

[givemenoughrope]

The movie and score worked. In the end - thats all that counts.

It "works" like a car with a flat drives.

[ppjmd]

Is music just a job to you? :)

Absolutely not - God forbid that would be the case for anybody! That's my point though - if music is just "organized sounds" than doesn't just about anyone qualify to write movie "themes?" I know a lot of 12-year-olds that can hold a note for 2 minutes - or even do decent sound design. The result might even "work for the picture" - but that doesn't make them a film composer.

I do agree that the sound Hans came up with for the Joker does "work" but I would stop short of calling it a theme. To be generous, it's an effective musical "device" at best.

More power to him - and to us - I'm gonna stop working so hard and just start submitting two dissonant notes, call them "themes" and then collect my $4 million ;-)

(yes, tongue firmly in cheek)

All in good fun,

[Dannthr]

What constitutes a film composer, whether you like it or not, is s/he who writes music for films.

It's like when people say something sounds like "Game Music." That doesn't make sense, film music is music that is in film, whether you want to acknowledge its professional nature or not, it is music in film and it isn't film music until someone puts it in film. Period.

And Jim, speaking of two dissonant notes, I actually do consider the soundtrack to Eyes Wide Shut to have a theme, would you argue that it is not?

[peter5992]

The purpose of a score in a film is to empower what's being showed on the screen, that being said, does a character as random and chaotic like The Joker really "have" a theme? He doesn't really, and when it comes to it, the character is about absolute chaos, it's not suppose to make sense. I personally believe they're justified in creating such a theme for The Joker.

When the average person watches this film, they don't hear the gimmicks we hear, heck they don't even notice it's what's putting them on edge. The majority of audiences still don't realize that all these psycho-acoustic effects are what's truly behind the shivers down their spines.

Just remember, the score isn't about the "music" = )

Well put.

[aml4]

When you all say "sound design" do you mean synth programming? Thats what that youtube link to Amon Tobin sounds like.

[ppjmd]

What constitutes a film composer, whether you like it or not, is s/he who writes music for films.

Sure - agreed. I was just entertaining the question of what constitutes a "theme." Just playing devil's advocate here, but somehow I think if some kid "composing" in his basement laid down a drone sample and called it a "theme" I doubt he'd win any Oscars for it. However, Hans does it and he's considered a genius by many. Don't get me wrong, I love much of his work and have nothing but respect for the guy - he's definitely started something...

speaking of two dissonant notes, I actually do consider the soundtrack to Eyes Wide Shut to have a theme, would you argue that it is not?

Never saw that one - I'd have to give it a listen. If it's the same idea as the Hans example in question (a static drone made of two detuned notes), I'd personally have a hard time calling it a theme. That's probably just my hangup though - I'd just want to call it something else. To me the word "theme" suggests a melody - but I certainly want to keep an open mind ;-)

Again, all in good fun. Great to spar with my esteemed colleagues - nothing but respect for you all!

[dcoscina]

I really dig that repeating string quartet line buried in the mix. Cool.

[ELP71]

And Jim, speaking of two dissonant notes, I actually do consider the soundtrack to Eyes Wide Shut to have a theme, would you argue that it is not?

Isn't that a Ligeti piece?

[t_l]

No. This is incorrect. Musically speaking, a theme must consist of some kind of melody which can be a collection of motifs or "short" themes which form a broader "large theme". As I've said in previous posts, a motif is a collection of a few notes. Therefore, 1 note doesn't constitute a theme.

The Joker "sound" is not a theme. But its a very cool sound.



True. But it must consist at the very least, of some notes...

lol. Corrected like I am in school.


Different interpretations are inevitable. Obviously I think a "theme" means something else.. maybe not so easily stuffed in a box. When we start bringing definitions into the equation, we are going to find many... think in broader strokes ;-)

An implicit or recurring idea to me is a theme. And what Hans did there, you'll have no problem associating that musical idea with the Joker.

Like Dan said, film music is music in film.. nothing more nothing less. It doesn't have to be a billion notes it could be just one.

[SBallard]

aml4 " When you all say "sound design" do you mean synth programming? Thats what that youtube link to Amon Tobin sounds like."

God I hope not. I do sound design and believe me it's not all synth programming and I don't think that Amon Tobin uses synth's exclusively either.

--I just wish he wouldn't act like he invented the idea:
I am with Dannthr

[A.Leung]

Isn't that a Ligeti piece?

yep.

[Dannthr]

Is that supposed to validate it more?


The problem with Hans Zimmer is that he's everyone's favorite guy to beat on--the reason being is that his ego is like an inflatable clown, you punch it but it doesn't actually do anything, he just comes right back up, bigger than before. The truth is that he's not a bad guy, he's not even a bad composer, but because he is simple, people get jealous, and when he pulls stunts like this (Joker Theme), people get outraged.

Maybe all of you can do it, and maybe it is really easy to do, but that doesn't make it NOT film music. I personally rather liked the soundtrack to Eyes Wide Shut, whose main theme constitutes two notes a minor 2nd apart played over and over AND OVER. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's not appropriate to the film and maybe you all could've had a better theme for the joker--that doesn't mean a thing.

Nolan likes what Hans has done, and the mere fact that Hans has talked himself up doesn't make the score any less legitimately a film score. If you were getting paid what Hansy was getting paid and the director asked you to create a musical score completely from the sound of RUBBER DUCKS--damn, you wouldn't say no and if you would, you'd be stupid.

[hualee]

Maybe all of you can do it, and maybe it is really easy to do, but that doesn't make it NOT film music. I personally rather liked the soundtrack to Eyes Wide Shut, whose main theme constitutes two notes a minor 2nd apart played over and over AND OVER. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's not appropriate to the film and maybe you all could've had a better theme for the joker--that doesn't mean a thing.


I agree with this...

I mean, it's a lot like a McDonald's meal. Not much content, not really cheap either, and we could probably do better ourselves, but that didn't stop that number on the "x million customers served" from growing. It for whatever reason does the trick, and gourmet burger chefs lose business to it all the time.

p.s don't tell me when you get a McDonald's craving, a gourmet food will satisfy that craving because you know it won't!

[ELP71]

Is that supposed to validate it more?

No - just to emphasize that it wasn't written for film, Kubrick chose that piece like a music supervisor would choose Del Amici's 'Roll To Me' for the newest Jennifer Aniston romantic comedy - because it fit the moment and worked for the director.

[t_l]

Absolutely not - God forbid that would be the case for anybody! That's my point though - if music is just "organized sounds" than doesn't just about anyone qualify to write movie "themes?" I know a lot of 12-year-olds that can hold a note for 2 minutes - or even do decent sound design. The result might even "work for the picture" - but that doesn't make them a film composer.




elitist much?

Music isn't exclusive to those who paid $30k for a composition degree. I understand you have a seasoned ear and hold things to high expectations, but great music can come from anyone who puts heart and soul into their work.

I think if they are writing music to an image thats exactly what it makes them.. a film composer.

I fail to see how simple = cheap.

[Dannthr]

and...?


So now it's film music.

[ppjmd]

elitist much?

Sure, if that means I don't subscribe to the dumbed-down idea of music as just "organized sounds." It is SO much more than that. But then I'm talking about music in general, not just film music which obviously has its own requirements.

Music isn't exclusive to those who paid $30k for a composition degree.

I completely agree, as I'd be in trouble otherwise! I didn't pay a dime for my musical "education." Like many of us, I learned by listening and doing. That may or may not be respectable in some circles, but at the end of the day I'm extremely blessed to get paid for what I do because someone values my craft (and previous output) enough to hire me. Same with all of you who do this for a living.

great music can come from anyone who puts heart and soul into their work.

Absolutely, it can - assuming they are talented in that area to begin with. Thousands of kids put their heart & soul (among other things!) into their American Idol auditions yet that doesn't mean they are "singers" - no matter how much they want to be. Is it elitist to say that?

I think what I was originally responding to was "what defines a theme" and it quickly turned into "who qualifies to write film music." I probably read into someone's reply the idea that "anyone can write film music" - which is certainly true by the most basic definition; It's when we get into the subjective nature of what's "good" or effective film music that we'll all start having our own ideas & opinions.

If it sounds elitist so be it - but I simply have more respect for guys like John Williams who can come up with new, evocative melodies to help tell a story out of the same 12 notes we've all got to work with. And then to have it be enjoyable on its own just makes it all the more impressive. That to me requires nothing short of a gift from God. Nobody can teach you to create a great melody; all someone can teach you is music theory. People will remember the themes from Star Wars, but nobody will remember any piece of an abstract film score, no matter how well it serves the picture. Does that make Williams a better film composer than someone whose work is largely based on sound design? I guess it depends on what you value in a film score. To me, the answer is yes, because I tend to view the score on its own merits - and my ability to enjoy it as a separate work of art. Still, I do concede that some films have different needs than others...

The overall point here, I think, is what serves the picture? In the case of Hans' Joker example, it does work; it serves the picture; and Hans IS a skilled (I would say highly gifted) film composer whether his approach is a memorable melody or cool sound design...

[Vincent Bergbahn]

When you get paid to do something and actually do it, THEN you can call yourself the title. That goes for every field. If certification is not required.

[Vincent Bergbahn]

True. But it must consist at the very least, of some notes...

It does! D then it goes sharp! LOL

[Vincent Bergbahn]

I agree with a lot of what people are saying here and partly disagree with others...

However, I think all of us completely forget something I was reminded about a few days ago....

WE KNOW TOO MUCH!! Therefore, we know all the little tricks they're pulling, all the possibilities that were open, and all the things we could have done better....

The purpose of a score in a film is to empower what's being showed on the screen, that being said, does a character as random and chaotic like The Joker really "have" a theme? He doesn't really, and when it comes to it, the character is about absolute chaos, it's not suppose to make sense. I personally believe they're justified in creating such a theme for The Joker.

When the average person watches this film, they don't hear the gimmicks we hear, heck they don't even notice it's what's putting them on edge. The majority of audiences still don't realize that all these psycho-acoustic effects are what's truly behind the shivers down their spines.

Just remember, the score isn't about the "music" = )

+1

[ELP71]

and...?


So now it's film music.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here. I wasn't attempting to 'counter' your argument. I, for one, agree that Ligeti piece is perfect and appropriate for that film.

I posed the question because Kubrick also used Ligeti's coral piece 'Atmospheres' to great effect in '2001 - A Space Odyssey' and I though I had heard the two-note displaced octave thing in 'Eyes Wide Shut' was his as well.

[Dannthr]

Ah, okay, I didn't realize it was an aside.

Plus, I didn't know what to expect from someone who likes ELP from 1971 :P

[Liam]

I agree with a lot of what people are saying here and partly disagree with others...

However, I think all of us completely forget something I was reminded about a few days ago....

WE KNOW TOO MUCH!! Therefore, we know all the little tricks they're pulling, all the possibilities that were open, and all the things we could have done better....

The purpose of a score in a film is to empower what's being showed on the screen, that being said, does a character as random and chaotic like The Joker really "have" a theme? He doesn't really, and when it comes to it, the character is about absolute chaos, it's not suppose to make sense. I personally believe they're justified in creating such a theme for The Joker.

When the average person watches this film, they don't hear the gimmicks we hear, heck they don't even notice it's what's putting them on edge. The majority of audiences still don't realize that all these psycho-acoustic effects are what's truly behind the shivers down their spines.

Just remember, the score isn't about the "music" = )

Wow this started quite a discussion! Hualee, I think the above was very well said. I would say that I regret using the word "theme" in the subject line of this post but I really don't. Here's why:

Yes it is true that "traditionally" a theme would consist of a recurring melody made up of multiple notes....BUT, let's think about this differently for a moment in the context of the Joker himself.

Picture Heath's purely chaotic, neurotic, twitchy, menacing, murdering "character" sitting with Hans actually listening to ideas for "his theme" and HE had to chose one.

Do you think someone that crazy would ever chose a melodic recurring theme like Darth Vader has? No of course not, he would be the one saying "Get out the way I'll do this!" and start scraping the strings with razors, pouring gasoline on the cello and lighting it on fire just to hear the strings pop. Then after nothing but noise was recorded, he would say....now THAT puts a smile on my face-ah!!

My point being, that in the mind of the Joker, and the audience watching the Joker, this is as close to a melody as would ever occur, and in the context of the Joker and only the Joker, it is HIS theme.

[SHKEVE]

No. This is incorrect. Musically speaking, a theme must consist of some kind of melody which can be a collection of motifs or "short" themes which form a broader "large theme". As I've said in previous posts, a motif is a collection of a few notes. Therefore, 1 note doesn't constitute a theme.

The Joker "sound" is not a theme. But its a very cool sound.


Sorry for reviving this thread but this is a pretty interesting discussion. Before I go on, I'm not writing this to put anyone down; I just want to prove a point that's derived completely from my personal opinion. I agree that most movie scores and pre-20th/21st century Western music follow this formula of melodic themes that are playable on a piano but I don't think music (and film music) as a whole can be imprisoned in this ideology. Think about Davidovsky's Synchronisms no. 2 where the themes of the piece come from a tape deck playing a processed recording of a piano. Or Takemitsu (a famed film composer) and his use of silence as thematic material.

If you want direct examples from film take a look at Ligeti's music. He's been used in various movies and his style has been ripped off many times, but his thematic material is rarely melodic. The first movement of his Chamber Concerto for 13 Instruments focuses on acoustic density by altering the number of notes used simultaneously.

But to the statement that a theme must be melodic, there is no better argument against it than the rhythmic motif used in Terminator 2. In hindsight I guess I could have just brought this one up and kept this post short.

So I disagree with the idea that there exists any kind of limit on what defines a musical motif, but speaking in terms of writing commercial music and what will get you your next job... maybe it's best to stick to the old warhorse of tonal melodies and leitmotifs. Just don't forget that these concepts are, at the very least, 300 years old!

Oh! and don't forget about micro tonal music!

[SOJO7]

There is a joker sound, but if the entire track used at the beginning of TDK was the rest of it, then it's definitley a Joker Theme with rythm and notes etc.

Looking at some of the earlier posts I'd say we're mainly seeing a difference between orchestral composing and film composing. With Film Composing, you use things that make sounds to enhance the film and evoke the right emotions. All conventions can be thrown out the window as long as it fits the images on screen. I think Zimmer nailed that effort with this relatively unique approach.:)

He did a great job.

[t_l]

Sorry for reviving this thread but this is a pretty interesting discussion. Before I go on, I'm not writing this to put anyone down; I just want to prove a point that's derived completely from my personal opinion. I agree that most movie scores and pre-20th/21st century Western music follow this formula of melodic themes that are playable on a piano but I don't think music (and film music) as a whole can be imprisoned in this ideology. Think about Davidovsky's Synchronisms no. 2 where the themes of the piece come from a tape deck playing a processed recording of a piano. Or Takemitsu (a famed film composer) and his use of silence as thematic material.

If you want direct examples from film take a look at Ligeti's music. He's been used in various movies and his style has been ripped off many times, but his thematic material is rarely melodic. The first movement of his Chamber Concerto for 13 Instruments focuses on acoustic density by altering the number of notes used simultaneously.

But to the statement that a theme must be melodic, there is no better argument against it than the rhythmic motif used in Terminator 2. In hindsight I guess I could have just brought this one up and kept this post short.

So I disagree with the idea that there exists any kind of limit on what defines a musical motif, but speaking in terms of writing commercial music and what will get you your next job... maybe it's best to stick to the old warhorse of tonal melodies and leitmotifs. Just don't forget that these concepts are, at the very least, 300 years old!

Oh! and don't forget about micro tonal music!

Well said!

[A.Leung]

+1

[OneThrow]

I've not read much of this thread, so maybe this has already been said. Hans seems to have had a lot of fun using his masses of gear to make what essentially is a noise for a theme. And it worked really well in the film. Although pretty unmemorable. In terms of whether it is an actual theme. If the composer says it is, then for me it is.

[Bart Klepka]

Although pretty unmemorable.

Unmemorable? I can remember it just as easily as I can other film themes. In fact if I was on a train and the PA system started playing the Joker theme I'd **** myself.

[Anthony H]

What a good thread to stumble across!

A couple of fact issue: Wasn't it Ligeti's "Lux Aeterna" in 2001? And, I believe it was Edgard Varèse who spoke about "organised sounds", not Stockhausen. There was comment that music as "organised sound" is a "dumbed-down idea" - I beg to differ. Composers like Varèse (and, indeed, Stockhausen and Ligeti) are HARDLY the sort of men who would dumb-down music...quite the opposite.

Then, SHKEVE makes good points but I definitely think the Joker 'sound' qualifies as a leitmotif. A leitmotif is a musical theme attached to a character/plot point/location, and that sound is clearly attached to the Joker. To call it 'unmusical' is even a stretch for me. It sits in the rest of the (pretty traditional) score pretty comfortably; at least, relatively and appropriately. And, it's just a double-stop portamento... easy to notate in traditional notation...what's the fuss all about?
What I found interesting after watching the film was that I didn't actually associate the theme (let's call it that) with the Joker at all! Sure, it was very striking in the film, surprising, anxiety-inducing and exciting, but it took a comment from a friend to make the link with the Joker. So on that side of things, it may have been intended as a leitmotif of some sort, but I wasn't convinced it was successful at that. At being a bit unnerving, it did really well.

I get the feeling watching that video that Zimmer (and maybe even Nolan, of whom I'm a fan) is a bit of an old warhorse delving into "weird" territory and playing with his toys. And the result, I thought, was still a bit safe. In reality, the idea isn't innovative at all, nor is it the "weirdest", most terrifying sound I've ever heard in a musical context...but then I can't agree enough with hualee's point that we know too much. I know that my listening has a far greater range than Joe Average, the target-market-popcorn-munching-lowest-common-denominator. That said, and in reference to an earlier post, I'm a little ashamed to say I'm busy finishing writing a a full-on-horn-cluster-bends-and-timpani action scene. The client is forcing me! ;)

As for mid-20th century music in film, someone mentioned Jonny Greenwood's music... I liked what he did with Bodysong but I didn't like the score for There Will Be Blood - much to my disappointment. I've been told that the music in that film was actually edited and spliced in from 'Popcorn Superhet Receiver' (a seperate commission from the BBC Concert Orchestra). Again, it's maybe a case of having heard "too much", but it sounded so imitative of Ligeti, Penderecki & Messiaen that I wasn't surprised by it at all. Still, my main complaint in that score was that music wasn't placed and used to the best effect as film score goes - it didn't serve the narrative or the image (or did so erratically). As for TDK, I have a similar feeling mostly because I missed the link, but that may be that's 'cos I'm a bit dumb :D.

Ooer...have I strayed from the topic. I dunno...back to work!

Anthony

[ELP71]

Wasn't it Ligeti's "Lux Aeterna" in 2001?

Both "Atmospheres" and "Lux Aeterna" were used, as well as a section of his "Requiem", very much without Ligeti's permission and much to Kubrick's chagrin when he was successfully sued as a result.

[LHall]

A theme can be:

a) a set of notes or note that runs through a piece of music repetitively enough and distinctively enough that it becomes a recognition device

b) a series of thoughts and ideas that run through a conversation

c) a notion around which a party is designed

d) a paper written in school - preferably containing a series of thoughts and ideas

These are my thoughts - I didn't get them from wikipedia....these are my own themes.

Reminds me of something you hear in the South all the time:

"let's go to the barbeque and barbeque some barbeque on the barbeque"

semantics - semahntics - let's call the whole thing off

[jeffb01]

No. This is incorrect. Musically speaking, a theme must consist of some kind of melody which can be a collection of motifs or "short" themes which form a broader "large theme". As I've said in previous posts, a motif is a collection of a few notes. Therefore, 1 note doesn't constitute a theme.

The Joker "sound" is not a theme. But its a very cool sound.



True. But it must consist at the very least, of some notes...


"You have all these rules, and you think they'll save you... the only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."

- joker during interrogation, dark knight

sorry, just watching it and when the joker said that, I thought of this thread.

[givemenoughrope]

"You have all these rules, and you think they'll save you... the only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."

- joker during interrogation, dark knight

sorry, just watching it and when the joker said that, I thought of this thread.

Nice one!

I'm going to go ahead and say that the main motifs in both the original Halloween and Texas Chainsaw Massacre (yes, that "rrrreeee" sound) are a couple of the best of all time....I wish they developed a big more though.

[bluejay]

I'm a little ashamed to say I'm busy finishing writing a a full-on-horn-cluster-bends-and-timpani action scene. The client is forcing me! ;)

I'm doing similar things here, particularly with drum loops and trumpet clusters! That's all I could think of when I read this thread. The Matrix "Reheated" seems to be a common request from directors.

[peter5992]

Going back to the Joker theme, heard this on the radio this week on Armin van Buuren's State of Trance radioshow (only posting a part of it as I don't have permission - I'm in the hot tub here, from a copyright perspective):

www.summeroflovemusic.com/Smile.mp3

The track is "Smile When You Kill Me", by German trance DJ / producer Jerome Isma-Ae (http://www.jee-productions.com/artists.php?artist_index=jerome&show_index=1&text_index=bio).

He did a pretty nice job imo.

[Dannthr]

Hahahahahahahah


Hahahans' music has come full circle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lqe8SpL3AA

[OneThrow]

I bet he made more from the Joker theme. :D

[JCL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dnVlbKgoM

Sometimes I'm not sure if Hans is fooling us...

Picasso and many others did (and do) Oh, the price we pay to be "trendy"!

[dgrm44]

Remind me again, how much money did this movie make?

Of course there will be those of you who think if the majority likes it then it must be herd like garbage.

[peter5992]

Hahahahahahahah


Hahahans' music has come full circle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lqe8SpL3AA

That's a good one Dann! Very sharp.

Remember that song really well - huge huge hit back in the 70s/80s - loved it. One of the first video breakthroughs of MTV if I can recall right.

(watching 80s videos on youtube now - all your fault!)

[Dannthr]

Oh yeah, dude, at 2:53 you can see HANSY perfecting his sound design to music technique--and that megalith of technology behind him would only grow, grow, grow!