WB / SC problems

[ziutek]

Hello, everyone.

I would like to describe a few problems with WB/SC I have been struggling with for quite some time now.
First of all, something has changed drastically after the latest updates. It looks like the new overlapping algorythm requires more processing power and therefore achieving realistic quick passages on my system (win xp, cubase sx 2, 2GB ram, athlon XP2600) has become impossible. Try to write some 16ths at 80 bpm and whatever you do you can't even get close to real sounding choir. Suddenly the volume level lowers, to my ears it sounds like the WB is trying to apply slurred (?) legato to each note and that's how the result occurs. It sounds really bad. Using the key switch doesn't seem to make any difference.
Another thing is, that in the previous version of WB, notes and words became "joined" after using the "learn" procedure. You could start playing a sequence from any note (from the sequencer, I mean) and the WB "knew" where we are. Now it is next to impossible to get the WB start "attaching" words to notes even from the very beginning of the sequence. I have to hit "reset position" and start the sequence over and over again several times before I can actually listen to any result of my work. In most cases it starts playing from the SECOND word. In other words - the wb does not reset itself to the beginning of the sequence, even if I hit the "reset position" button several times. In the previous version I could start playing the sequence from cubase from ANY note and everything worked fine.
The next problem is that the WB does not seem to learn anything at times - or rather is mysteriously "remembers" old note lenghts, even after a new learning process. I have just done an experiment - "taught" the WB a line at 80 bpm, than changed the tempo to 60 bpm and taught the wb again - no result whatsoever, the WB remembered the old lenghts. It started working again only after I retyped the words.
Sometimes the wb misses some vowels. Most often "Os". It simply plays the sequence, skipping all the "Os" in the text.
Sometimes, after the "learn" procedure, the wb - believe it or not - changes letters by itself. Even though there is a word like "ya" in the WB, the whole thing sings "ma".
Things sound OK, though, when played directly from the keyboard. I am beginning to blame the cubase for doing something bad to the WB. But the cubase works absolutely perfect with any oner piece of software I use, including the EWQLSO, which I am hopelessly in love with. :) But the choirs are really painful to work with...
I was thinking of reinstalling the EWQLSC and using the older version of both the WB and the multis, but I though I would first consult you guys here.
I think I have tried everything I could think of before writing this post. I am an experienced composer / producer and have dealt with music software for years. But the EWQLSC is the most unpredictable thing I have had the opportunity to work with. Its sonoristic and dynamic potential is huge but working on choral parts using SC is not my favorite part of the writing process (yet?).
If anyone has experienced similar problems, I will be really grateful for help. Is my processor too slow? (It's fast enough to let me work with really big orchestral arrangements, though). Am I doing something wrong? Anything else?

Best,

Ziutek.

[dach]

I'm experiencing many of the same issues but I "believe" it has more to do with Cubase than anything. The first or second revision of WB worked great here although minus some key features. The current version seems to exhibit many of the same behaviors you describe but may have something to do with the fact that neither of us have upgraded to v3. Until I decide to change something perfectly stable and upgrade (I'm close though), I'm living with it although there are definitely some issues with the latest WB and v2.2. I can get the choirs to do what I want (most of the time) but I do it one line at a time and then bounce which is a serious pain. Forget editing... with the key commands issue in v2 you just need to play it "right".

For anyone using Cubase/Nuendo "3"... is anyone experiencing the same issues with WB?

Thanks,
dach

[ziutek]

Thanks, dach. So it looks like its not only me who feels that the new WB and SX2 do not go together very well, so to speak. :)
I'll try to install SC on a friend's system (he uses sx3) and I'll let you know the results. I can't remember - will the SC choirs work for a day or two without registering? I think I'll go back to WB 108 or even the one that came with the library, which was an even earlier version, I guess. But I'll wait for some more replies, maybe there IS a solution. I get the feeling that in SOME cases (slow parts, mainly) the new overlapping feature works fine, better than in the previous WB. I think I understand what the producers wanted to achieve with the new function - a short "fade in and fade out" added on "both ends" of a note, which was supposed to add more realism to the samples, getting the desired, natural result faster than editing each and every note. But in our, "cubase people" case it doesn't seem to be working. In my case I have to set the latency rather high in order to load, say, two multis at the same time. Playing it right the first time is extremely difficult then. So you need to edit. When you start editing weird things occur. And so on, and so forth.

Playing one line, bouncing it and playing another one is not only a pain but also limits one's harmonic creativity, I think. I fully understand that EWQLSC is a revolutionary product and that a couple of years ago we couldn't even DREAM of such a piece of software. So I do agree that some diffuculties may occur at this stage. But being unable to finalize just two choral pieces for a project that has a deadline in three weeks and I am only in the middle of, makes me think of hiring a real choir. And that's exactly what I wanted to avoid buing this piece of sofware...

best,

Ziutek.

[Magpie]

I am a SX 2.2 user too , I havn't really had chance to put the WB update through it's paces yet , I spent a whole day last weekend trying to get it to sing the girls name Amy in Votox
= iEmEE , the problem I had was I couldn't get the first E after the i to sound right it just kept
jumping out in my face , instead of sounding Ay the iE sounded A........... eh , I spent hours
playing with the letter timers and cross fades and still couldn't get it right and gave up in frustration .

I know the cross fades work properly now and I think the problem I had was my own inabillity and not something wrong with the word builder .

neither of us have upgraded to v3. Until I decide to change something perfectly stable and upgrade (I'm close though),
It might not be too long now for SX4 ;) I'm holding off for that as SX1 and SX2 users got the same upgrade price to SX3 maybe SX2 users will get the same upgrade price as SX3 users to upgrade to SX4 :confused:

[ziutek]

That's the point, Magpie.

Look, you spent THE WHOLE DAY trying to get one word to sound right.
I am working on 32-word lyrics for a part of a piece I am writing.
Am I to spend 32 days on a 1'30 long piece?
The lyrics is nothing complicated, just English. Common words.

But my problem is mainly not with how real the words sound but with the issues I described in detail in my first post in this thread. Realism of the sound produced is just one of the issues - I cannot even listen to my work being sung correctly. It just doesn't work properly. It misses the first word, it misses vowels. It does strange things to quick passages.

I thought my ability to do things with this piece of software should be even higher than of an average user. I have a degree in Modern Languages, I know a thing or two about phonetics. I am also a composer - I have worked with real musicians, orchestras and choirs. I am not a beginner.
I would love to go into the deepest details concerrning pronunciation of words in various languages, I though I could be of some use for this forum and contribute to the votox database. But for the time being I can't even get a line sung correctly.

At this stage I AM NOT blaming EWQLSC for the problems - I think they arise somewhere between the SC and the cubase. Once again - most problems appear when trying to fine-tune a line being played from cubase, after the WB learns the lenghts.

Is there anybody out there, using similar setup (cubase sx2, win xp, 2GB ram, athlon xp 2600 and the latest updates of the library and WB) who experiences problems similar to those descibed above?

Best,

Ziutek.

[Ikary]

:( Hi Guys !

I'm using a PC (win XP, Athlon x2 4400+, 4Gb Ram) with Nuendo 3, and I have all the troubles describes by all of you !

As you can see, the power of my machine is not an issue. And unfortunatly, it is just a pain to try make a lyrics with WB ! I just bought it, so I am still a beginner in term of editing, but for now, I just want to say:

"the price is your life" in votox mode, which is "t!a PraES iz yor laEF"

My problems are both of the words "PraES & laEF" because they have the same construction:

the last syllable is "EF" and is pronounced during the release of the note... play in real time on keyboard, it sounds great... but try to put it on sequencer, and this last syllable is horribly cut !

I have all the last version we can find on both WB and SC.

If there is a setting to do on Nuendo itself, I have no idea what it could be.... so if somebody have an idea for one of all those problems, don't hesitate to talk me about!

Nevertheless, I just want to say that WB seems to work better in stand alone (has the book notice discribe it) than in a Host software like Cubase or Nuendo. The problem is, I think, most of us didn't buy it for using it on stand alone, but to add it on SO with an Host soft...

I don't know how it works on Logic, but I don't plan to buy a Mac, and Nuendo is so far I think, one of the best soft on PC (and above all the more affordable...)

One of the other problem I have is each time I load a project in Nuendo, WB becomes totaly crazy so much, that I have to close it in totality (kompakt either) and redo all my lyrics after I reopened all in a specific order (1st WB, then Kompakt, and in last the Multi...)

I don't underdansd why is apparently work like that....

If I am a beginner in SC, I'm not, for example, in composing and using SO, but as all of you guys, I think it's gonna make me crazy !

[Magpie]

:( Hi Guys !

One of the other problem I have is each time I load a project in Nuendo, WB becomes totaly crazy so much, that I have to close it in totality (kompakt either) and redo all my lyrics after I reopened all in a specific order (1st WB, then Kompakt, and in last the Multi...)

I don't underdansd why is apparently work like that....



Yes that is a known problem , the thing to do is to save all your WB work by exporting it as a .cho file and then import the file back into WB when the project has loaded .

I also find that WB does not like its midi to start from bar 1 in SX and works better starting
the track from bar 2 .

Also when exporting audio you need to set the left locator an extra bar infront of where
the midi starts otherwise the audio file will be messed up .

[Ikary]

Yes that is a known problem , the thing to do is to save all your WB work by exporting it as a .cho file and then import the file back into WB when the project has loaded .

I also find that WB does not like its midi to start from bar 1 in SX and works better starting
the track from bar 2 .

Also when exporting audio you need to set the left locator an extra bar infront of where
the midi starts otherwise the audio file will be messed up .



Thx Magpie !

The problem is, I start my lyrics in that case, at the bar 82... but good to know it's not working very well from the first one... for the audio export, I already known the trick for that.

Do you have a idea about the problem of my 2 words "price" and "life" which are not pronounced well at the last syllable when played on the sequencer? it's really critical for me, because if there no answer quickly, I think I will have to change my Lyrics (which is a real pain for me...)

Again, thanks a lot for being interested to my problems :o

[Magpie]

Do you have a idea about the problem of my 2 words "price" and "life" which are not pronounced well at the last syllable when played on the sequencer? it's really critical for me, because if there no answer quickly, I think I will have to change my Lyrics (which is a real pain for me...)



I think the problem is most likely due to letter lengths and letters that have placed themselves after the note off .

did you use the WB learn function ?

another thing you could try is to open a new project with just these words and their 2 midi notes in the sequencer and experiment with them there then when they sound right make a note of what you did and apply it to the words in the full project .

good luck

[ziutek]

Magpie,
you wrote:

Yes that is a known problem , the thing to do is to save all your WB work by exporting it as a .cho file and then import the file back into WB when the project has loaded .


Exporting a .cho file, but only in stand-alone mode, you mean?
As a vst-ma plugin in cubase you can only export a .voi file. Right? Or am I missing something here? I guess a .voi file does not contain any wordbuilder data, does it?

With regard to my "quick passages" problem I have just figured out that increasing the polyphony in kompakt to extreme values and for ALL the files in a multi helps. I went for the value of 200 (which I suppose to be impossible, but it gives better results).

But now, when my sopranos finally stopped choking I am afraid to turn the PC off...

How do I save my WB work?

Best,

Ziutek.

[Magpie]

My appologies ziutek :o

You are correct it is .voi files in the vst-ma plug and that is what I meant but put .cho by mistake .

Yes everything in your WB project will be saved in the .voi file .

The way I work with it is every time I get something sounding right I export everything as a new .voi file so that if anything gets messed up I can always go back to an older version,
I save these in the SX project folder .