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View Full Version : A Question for the Silver Users...


matthew82475
04-27-2005, 09:34 AM
I've been working with EWQLSO Silver for about a week now and I've got a technique question. Since you have to start somewhere, I began working with the brass first. My quesiton is this, basically, how do you create reasonably realistic brass lines with the silver edition?

For example, if you use the Keyswitch files, you can't create a legato line with an accent on the first note if the first note is held more than an eighth note (depending on tempo, of course) because the stocatto articulations are too short and the sustain articulations don't have accents.

However, if you use the articulations separately you can use the mod wheel to either control the accents or the timbre, but no both. So if you had a legato line that begins with an accent at about mf dynamic, you could either set the mod wheel to control the attack, which would give you a smooth line with an initial lip blast, but you wouldn't be able to change timbres during a held crescendo (or decrescendo, for that matter) because the mod wheel would be controlling the attack rather than timbre.

So, how do you guys (and gals) use silver to create realistic lines?

Thanks,

Matt

P.S. I'd like to ask about string parts, but with so many different articulations for those instruments, I'm almost afraid to ask.

lux
04-27-2005, 10:15 AM
Matt, you could start to do layering to control notes.

I mean, kompakt player allows you to assign more than just one instrument patch to the same channel, so you can layer a staccato patch with a sustain one on two different slots and manage them separately in volume. if you're writing for sections the thing is easier, because layering will affect the note dynamic but the overall timbre will not be so affected.

Edit: if you want complete control on expression for each single layer, just assign them to different channel and play them together on your sequencer, then tweak each one separately with expression curves.

Sometimes it works also for solo lines.

Luca

matthew82475
04-27-2005, 11:52 AM
I'm not quite sure I understand. If I assign a staccato and a legato patch to the same channel, how would I be able to control the volume of each individual sound. It was my understanding that with them set to the same channel, whatever controller changes I make to the MIDI track will affect both articulations.

In regard to the "edit" comment, do you mean I should create two MIDI tracks of the same information, assign them to two different channels, and adjust the volume and expressive content that way? This was the only solution I could think of, and I was curious to know if there was some other way to do it.

Thanks,

Matt

lux
04-27-2005, 05:06 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand. If I assign a staccato and a legato patch to the same channel, how would I be able to control the volume of each individual sound. It was my understanding that with them set to the same channel, whatever controller changes I make to the MIDI track will affect both articulations.

yes, you can still manage patch volume in player, but not automate it.


In regard to the "edit" comment, do you mean I should create two MIDI tracks of the same information, assign them to two different channels, and adjust the volume and expressive content that way? This was the only solution I could think of, and I was curious to know if there was some other way to do it.

Thanks,

Matt

Yes, its a bit tricky, but its the most versatile solution to do layering. Most sequencer allow you to have two tracks pointing to different channel and play them together. Then you could edit dynamics in piano roll individually. This could help you for example to have some fast sustain passages layering some staccatos on sustains and settings volumes and attacks.
You have basically the same result as you have in "Sus accent mod" patches, but in this case you can manage separately the "attack" and the "sus" part of the patch.

Hope this helps a bit

Luca

loogoo
04-27-2005, 08:41 PM
The sum total, at least at this point in sampling technology, is that there is no "one patch plays all" solution. The real art to creating convincing orchestrations with a sample library (any sample library) is to think of yourself as creating a sonic mosaic out of lots of different little pieces. It's actually kind of fun after you've gotten the hang of it and gives you lots of control over your piece. Just wait til the Pro versions come out - more colors to play with ;)

matthew82475
04-28-2005, 07:23 AM
Thanks for your insights. As a traditional composer, this whole sample thing is really new to me. I know it means that I have to reconsider how I think about the performance of the music I write. So, if I understand everyone correctly, it is not uncommon to have multiple tracks for an individual instrument with each track handling different aspects (or articulations) for each instrument.

I guess the last question I would have is this: For a 27 part orchestration, how many different tracks am I likely to need and how time consuming is it to create good sounding parts? I'm just asking to get a feel for how much time I'll probably need to spend (post-composition) to create a decent recording.

I really appreciate your help as I venture into this new world.

Matt

P.S. Come to think about it, all of the written documentation regarding EWQLSO lack any discussion of technique. I wonder how many different approaches there are to using this type of technology and whether or not anyone would be willing to share their approaches with us struggling neophytes. :D

loogoo
04-28-2005, 07:55 AM
There are many different ways of approaching this, and whichever you choose depends mainly on the amount of work you're willing to put in and how many articulations you require. As to how many tracks you'll need, that all depends again on how many articulations you decide you need (only your ears know for sure).

Keep in mind there are several KS or Keyswitch instruments available (particularly the strings) which bundle together several different articulations into one patch. All you do is hit a key (highlighted in brown/gold on the Kompakt player keyboard) for the articulation you want just prior to the change. It won't sound, as it is out of the instrument's range - its only function is to switch samples. This can save you several tracks right there.

I don't know what sequencer/notation package you're using but this is what I do using Sonar 4. Because Sonar allows you to assign MIDI channels to individual notes in a track, essentially letting you change channels on one track, I can usually keep most of an instrument's notes on one track and assign new channels to the notes that I want to play with different articulations. Just make sure that your different articulations are loaded into the same player and that you have set the MIDI channel for your track to play all. Of course, if you're layering sounds you will have no choice but to create a separate track, but you can at least minimize the number of separate tracks needed.

I guess the bottom line really is experiment and find what really works for you. Then you can pass on that information to the next neophyte that accesses the forum :D

neoTypic
04-28-2005, 08:44 AM
Darn, that's a usefull feature! I wonder if Cubase has it... if not I might have to check into Sonar.

loogoo
04-28-2005, 11:03 AM
Darn, that's a usefull feature! I wonder if Cubase has it... if not I might have to check into Sonar.

Well, my copy of Cubasis SE that came with GPO has it, so I would imagine that regular Cubase would as well. Just highlight/select the note(s) you want to change in the edit window and select the channel. Make sure that the channel in the Part Info section of the Track window is set to 'Any'. That's it.

Stefan Podell
04-28-2005, 11:18 AM
Well, my copy of Cubasis SE that came with GPO has it, so I would imagine that regular Cubase would as well. Just highlight/select the note(s) you want to change in the edit window and select the channel. Make sure that the channel in the Part Info section of the Track window is set to 'Any'. That's it.

Cubase SE does it, too. But only one note at a time, which *really* sucks.

neoTypic
04-28-2005, 07:13 PM
Well, my copy of Cubasis SE that came with GPO has it, so I would imagine that regular Cubase would as well. Just highlight/select the note(s) you want to change in the edit window and select the channel. Make sure that the channel in the Part Info section of the Track window is set to 'Any'. That's it.

Cool, thanks for the info. I wonder if it's possible to color code based on the channel it's going to? That would cut down on so many tracks while still being able to tell quickly where my data is headed.