Mahler's First Symphony

[peter5992]

Just got back from the SF Symphony - Sunday afternoon program with Lieder (songs) and then the First Symphony after the break.

Magnificent!!

If you have the opportunity, definitely go check them out. MTT (director Michael Tilson Thomas) and the SF Symphony rock!

[A.Leung]

You lucky guy!

[peter5992]

Ha - knew this would catch your attention, Allan!

Can't believe that the First Symphony was a flop when it was performed in Austria. What were they thinking?

[Jasper Blunk]

Golly, you have to just post that here to make us jealous! :)

I went to the SF Symphony a few months ago. I actually spent the whole time trying to count how many players there were and also imaging that they were playing my music, in that NICE hall. Sounds so airy, the reverb is just right. Anyway, I think there are about 60 players. I think 2 double basses and 4 cellos.

Does this symphony do film music too? I THINK I heard they have done some scores at Skywalker.. I'd love to see a session. :)

[mezzoforte]

Can't believe that the First Symphony was a flop when it was performed in Austria. What were they thinking?
Some say the Austrian premiere was a success:
"The first really successful performance.# 1900 November 18, Vienna, conducted by the composer." http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/sy/symphony_no._1_%28mahler%29.htm
Maybe you were talking about the Hungarian premiere?
As a matter of fact, Mahler has heavily revised it after the first performances; so maybe there was a reason that the audiences of the early versions didn't like it much. Maybe they were right, and their critical attitude was a good thing. "What were they thinking?" What do YOU think they were thinking? Generally, the concertgoers of those times and places were well educated musically knowledgeable people. Don't presume to judge them.

[Babe]

I was in Davis the week it opened. Heard Mahler's 8th. Primo seats.

[Pietro]

I've played a couple of his symphonies, at least no 1, 2 and 3 as far as I remember.

I'm not a Mahler's fan. You know, the mass and the sound condensation isn't really that cool after all if you don't have some interesting harmonic or melodic material to show. I'm just not a big fan of "let's bring a 1000 of musicians on stage, and let them play and sing Cmaj, Gmaj7 for about an hour" approach.

BUT! :) it always amazes me how dull and boring can his symphonies be on rehearsals, and then what an exceptional experience and how energetic can they be at the actual performance. They are very slowly developing (Symphony no 2 is 90 minutes), but make sense as a whole.

- Piotr

[peter5992]

Some say the Austrian premiere was a success:
"The first really successful performance.# 1900 November 18, Vienna, conducted by the composer." http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/sy/symphony_no._1_%28mahler%29.htm
Maybe you were talking about the Hungarian premiere?
As a matter of fact, Mahler has heavily revised it after the first performances; so maybe there was a reason that the audiences of the early versions didn't like it much. Maybe they were right, and their critical attitude was a good thing. "What were they thinking?" What do YOU think they were thinking? Generally, the concertgoers of those times and places were well educated musically knowledgeable people. Don't presume to judge them.

This is from the Program Notes, written by Michael Steinberg (he was the SF Symphony's program annotator from 1979 to 1999, died last July after a long battle with cancer):

"(...) But he enjoyed pubic success with the work only in Prague in 1898 and in Amsterdam five years later. The Viennese audience in 1900, musically reactionary and anti-Semitic to boot, was singularly vile in its behavior, and even Mahler's future wife, Alma Schindler, (...) fled that concert in anger and disgust."

Apparently the third movement really pissed off people - they just didn't know what to make of it, whether they were being made fun of, or whether it was serious. The theme of the third movement is based on a minor key variation of "Frere Jacques", a well known children song (often sung in canon) around the world in many different languages. Laura Pritchard, who gave a brief lecture about Mahler before the start of the concert, actually had us (the audience) sing it, in German, first the original, then Mahler's slow minor variation.

Reminds me of another SF Symphony last year, Tchaikovsky's violin concerto in D with the *incredible* Hilary Hahn - that was apparently also poorly received when it debuted in Vienna.

Mahler's always had a good audience in Amsterdam - in the 20th Century the Concertgebouw had various Mahler festivals, where they performed all of his symphonies. One such festival in the 90s was taped for TV broadcasting which is now available on YouTube (Allan Leung put a hyperlink in the YouTube music videos thread elsewhere). The principal conductors have always been supportive of Mahler, starting with Mengelberg.

Speaking of music on TV, the SF Symphony has a "Keeping Score" program where MTT and the SF Symphony will be filmed live in different locations around the world (Paris, St Petersberg, Moscow, south of France) where musicians will be interviewed. In addition to local broadcasts (KQED Public Media in SF) PBS will air three episodes:

Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique on October 15
Ives - Holiday on October 22
Shostakovich - Symphony no. 5 (yes!!! one of my favorites) on October 29.

Mark your diaries!!

See here: http://www.keepingscore.org/. Notice the sweepstakes where you can win a trip to SF, hotel stay and a back stage meeting with Michael Tilson Thomas.

ps Piotr: I would have thought that for a percussionist such as yourself playing all the big bangs in No. 1 would be blast!

[mezzoforte]

I'm not a Mahler's fan. You know, the mass and the sound condensation isn't really that cool after all if you don't have some interesting harmonic or melodic material to show. I'm just not a big fan of "let's bring a 1000 of musicians on stage, and let them play and sing Cmaj, Gmaj7 for about an hour" approach.
I know, I know, Mahler's melodically and harmonically uninteresting mass condensation, big orchestras/choirs and long banal chords - that's what it is, right.
But then again, a born blind doesn't know he's blind.

BUT! :) it always amazes me how dull and boring can his symphonies be on rehearsals, and then what an exceptional experience and how energetic can they be at the actual performance. They are very slowly developing (Symphony no 2 is 90 minutes), but make sense as a whole.
I have no idea what sense it makes to you as a whole, but if you say it makes sense to you, then it probably makes sense to you, as a whole. Nice but by the way.

[Pietro]

Yeah, Beethoven rulez and stuff...

- Piotr

[mezzoforte]

A little something to illustrate your point. This Mahler guy didn't have much to show melodically and harmonically. Quite uninteresting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIwypCFayBQ

[Pietro]

Still, musically not very appealing to me.

Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe", Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" - composed in virtually the same time are examples of what I'd call interesting. These are of course ballets, not symphonies and the guys were younger than Mahler, but it's the music I'm talking about. A matter of personal preference. I'd chose one of the two over Mahler (which is too static for my liking) or Beethoven or Chopin or ->name your other classical guru, music of which I'm familiar with<- anytime.

I'm not saying that it's bad music or worse. Some people love Johann Strauss's (the son's) music. Although I realize why some people may do like it, I don't. And a good thing is, that neither do I or in fact anyone has to, nor will make me or anyone like it ;).

Speaking of Mahler, I think everyone should go to a live performance one day and check out for himself what are we talking about here. But rather out of own curiousity and not because Mahler is Mahler (or Beethoven is Beethoven) and therefore an indisputable superiority over something else ;).

- Piotr

[mezzoforte]

Why so defensive? No need to, when you have so aptly described Mahler's music and creative approach:
the mass and the sound condensation isn't really that cool after all if you don't have some interesting harmonic or melodic material to show. I'm just not a big fan of "let's bring a 1000 of musicians on stage, and let them play and sing Cmaj, Gmaj7 for about an hour" approach.
Another static example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqlahGL7No

[Pietro]

Another static example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqlahGL7No

Yay!

I've played a couple of his symphonies, at least no 1, 2 and 3

Although I realize why some people may do like it, I don't. And a good thing is, that neither do I or in fact anyone has to, nor will make me or anyone like it .

I never though I would have to quote myself to support what I have already told.

- Piotr

[A.Leung]

Piotr, you of all people know to never feed the Trolls... Or DNFTT

Tsk tsk

From Wikipedia: Troll (Internet)

"Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation DNFTT redirect here. For the Wikimedia essay, see "What is a troll?".
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]

[OneThrow]

Sorry guys but this discussion has completely lost me.

[Peterkjones]

Mahler's always had a good audience in Amsterdam - in the 20th Century the Concertgebouw had various Mahler festivals, where they performed all of his symphonies. One such festival in the 90s was taped for TV broadcasting which is now available on YouTube (Allan Leung put a hyperlink in the YouTube music videos thread elsewhere). The principal conductors have always been supportive of Mahler, starting with Mengelberg.

Hi Peter, Interesting discography. My devotion to Mahler was sparked early in 1954 by the Philips recording of the 8th at the Holland Festival performance on July 3rd under Eduard Flipse, with the combined Rotterdam choirs and the Rotterdam PO. Though recorded in a marquee(!) it was the first such, I think, and partly responsible for the rehabilitation of Mahler in the UK before which he had been regarded as a rather overblown joke. I still have the much worn discs!
BTW, Allen, as a composer/ conductor of some experience, I have always said that mezzoforte is the dynamic used when nobody can think of anything more interesting to do and, as such, can safely be ignored. Hmm!

[peter5992]

Piotr, you of all people know to never feed the Trolls... Or DNFTT

Tsk tsk



:D

[mezzoforte]

Can't believe that the First Symphony was a flop when it was performed in Austria. What were they thinking?

Maybe they were thinking like this:
the mass and the sound condensation isn't really that cool after all if you don't have some interesting harmonic or melodic material to show. I'm just not a big fan of "let's bring a 1000 of musicians on stage, and let them play and sing Cmaj, Gmaj7 for about an hour" approach.

[mirrored]

You hardly give up, don't you...

[eko74]

I fell over a pocket score of Mahlers 1:st in a shop for used books a few years ago.
I had already listened quite a lot to his 4:th and 5:th symphonies, but this was my first "eyecontact" with Mahler. It was interresting to (try to) get familiar with the piece without hearing it. Later I got a nice recording of it (Boulez/Chicago SO).
I just wanted to say that I really enjoy th 1:st symphony!
And I really love his orchestrating in general. I've heard that Alma Mahler was very much involved in his orcheatrating. Does anyone know more about this?
/ Per

[chest]

I've heard that Alma Mahler was very much involved in his orcheatrating. Does anyone know more about this?
Unfortunately, all I ever knew about Alma Mahler came from Tom Lehrer ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH4J8CIBc7Q

[mezzoforte]

I've heard that Alma Mahler was very much involved in his orcheatrating.
You've heard that where exactly?

[peter5992]

And I really love his orchestrating in general. I've heard that Alma Mahler was very much involved in his orcheatrating. Does anyone know more about this?
/ Per

My understanding is rather the opposite - under the prenuptial agreement with Gustav Mahler she was to forego any interest in composition (though she was both a musician and composer / songwriter) - she may have been a copyist perhaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Mahler-Werfel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Mahler

No women's lib for ol' Gustav!

[composeralex]

I love that piece. Amazing stuff.

[eko74]

My understanding is rather the opposite - under the prenuptial agreement with Gustav Mahler she was to forego any interest in composition (though she was both a musician and composer / songwriter) - she may have been a copyist perhaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Mahler-Werfel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Mahler

No women's lib for ol' Gustav!

That's probably true. But a conductor friend of mine told me that (if I remember correct) she was his copyist and occationally convinced him of smaller alterations in the orchestration. And that she perhaps contributed more than one thinks. I don't know. I'll have to ask him again.

[eko74]

Ok, I just found this article: seems like she sometimes "sprinkled" history a bit in her own favor...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Problem

[mezzoforte]

Why even bother what the wife said? There's tons of evidence that her claims are at odds with Mahler's manuscripts and other documents. She was a cheater and a liar. So what's the point in bringing up her name? Let it rust in peace.

[peter5992]

Ok, I just found this article: seems like she sometimes "sprinkled" history a bit in her own favor...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Problem

Urgh - not a very flattering picture of Alma is it. Not the first time that someone would try to change history to embellish their own legacy, by the way.

Well, fortunately we still have his music today. He wasn't always appreciated during his lifetime and his style and passion about getting things right was a bit too much for some (there's this anecdote about him throwing his baton at the orchestra where it got stuck in the harpist's hairdo if I can recall correctly). He once commented people's appreciation of his music would change in the long run though - that has certainly come true.

[eko74]

Why even bother what the wife said? There's tons of evidence that her claims are at odds with Mahler's manuscripts and other documents. She was a cheater and a liar. So what's the point in bringing up her name? Let it rust in peace.

I didn't know anything about her. Which is why I asked if anyone else did...
I do apologize for bringing this up.

[peter5992]

Good morning everyone:

Going back to the SF Symphony, don't forget that tonight on PBS they air a special on "Keeping the Score" with Michael Tilson Thomas, about Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique: http://www.kqed.org/tv/programs/index.jsp?pgmid=14723

For the SF Bay Area, that is 10 pm on KQED. Your local broadcast may differ. If you can't see it tonight it will be broadcast again over the next couple of days.

Includes a trip to France to go to Berlioz' roots, peak behind the scenes, et cetera. Should be really good!