Your methods to write music?

[Xplora]

Hi guys,

I've finally dragged my arse into gear and started trying to orchestrate my music - death metal with a twist, like Emperor meets Nile meets Opeth. I'm trying to reconcile a fairly strong stoner/rock/Zakk Wylde vein as well; I think a separate project is in order for that. Anyways...

How do you guys set about putting together the "classical" music elements in a piece? I had a read through the Orchestration lessons on the Garritan website (absolutely awesome), and it seems like I'll be best served by restricting myself to writing music on guitar and bass, and then adding tubas and violas to my "melodies" as I need. How do you guys do it? I feel I just don't quite have the experience to hear violins or flutes in my head, but on the same token, I don't think my taste involves them anyway. The coolest melody I heard on the Garritan lessons was a piece that involved the unison playing of Bassoon, Tuba and Double bass, dark dark dark dark dark. Some of us just like the gritty side of music I guess.

How do you guys normally do it?

[Dannthr]

Orchestration, arranging for the various instruments, is about character. Guitar and Bass is like Tom Cruise playing Tom Cruise in every movie he's ever done. When you add instruments, you must consider their character and how that character influences the story.

For example, in Pirates of the Caribbean, Geoffrey Rush and Johnny Depp play pirates. Think of this concept as the melodic line or motif. But they both play very different characters, Geoffrey Rush is very traditional pirate and Depp is over-the-top wacky/weird/different/etc. This is like the actors selecting the timbre of their characters: gruff or slanty.

Your example of the Basson, Tuba, and Double Bass is a perfect example of how selecting instruments is about the character of those instruments.

That's how you make your decision.

[idragosani]

Even heavy and dark classical music and opera composers like Wagner, Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky used a variety of instruments rather than just low brass. Woodwinds can add a lot of a color to a section even if you can't hear the individual instruments specifically. Things like oboes, english horns and horns from the brass section can create a dark and thick sound also. Strings can add an epic sweep to a piece. The variety is endless. Listen to lots and lots of orchestral music and you will see how combinations of instruments can create tonal color.

[Xplora]

It's funny though... I've noticed that the classical stuff I hear on the radio doesn't indulge my preferred instrument combinations very much, so it's a struggle to get much of the "underground" classical stuff.

I guess its the way of the world though - most people just don't like heavy music, regardless of the century.

[idragosani]

Yeah, don't listen to the radio, they'll have no more of the heavy and dark symphonic music anymore than the rock stations will play Opeth, Behemoth or Therion. You'll have to go to something like http://www.classicalarchives.com/ to find more obscure stuff. Like I said, Wagner, Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky were the "heavies".

[mezzoforte]

OK, here is how it's done, in three easy steps:
1\ Establish your goal.
2\ Find the means to achieve it.
3\ Go for it.
Did I say easy? Sorry, I meant: simple.

Or, you can take the long way:
`Cheshire Puss,' she began, rather timidly, as she did not at all know whether it would like the name: however, it only grinned a little wider. `Come, it's pleased so far,' thought Alice, and she went on. `Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?'

`That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,' said the Cat.

`I don't much care where--' said Alice.

`Then it doesn't matter which way you go,' said the Cat.

`--so long as I get SOMEWHERE,' Alice added as an explanation.

`Oh, you're sure to do that,' said the Cat, `if you only walk long enough.'

[Xplora]

mezzo, I can do this already. I'm interested as to how everyone else does it.

[Peterkjones]

Hi Xplora
Forget the “hippy-dippy-sh•t” here’s something practical. I guess you probably don’t read music or orchestral scores (if you do, forgive me if this seems patronising) but I assume you have a Midi controller and can find notes on the keyboatd. With SO you have a marvellous tool with which to start orchestrating.
Chordal practice.
Take each instrumental family in turn - woodwinds, brass, and strings. Start with the woods. They are arranged in the score from high to low reading downwards - flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons (with other related instruments in their appropriate positions – don’t worry about them, they’re for later). Each instrument has a fixed range (happily, SO does this for you) which overlap each other.
Use a simple three note chord (a triad). C in the middle of the keyboard (use a manual or get some-one to show you where it is), E the third white note above, and G the fifth (counting the C as 1). Now load up a long bassoon patch and record the lowest C you can find, then add the E above middle C (that’s bassoons 1 and 2), Now load up a clarinet patch and record two Gs, interleaving them with the bassoons (i.e. the lowest clarinet in between the two bassoons). Now the same with two oboes on an interval of a sixth, say, and lastly two flutes with the first flute on the highest note. Remember to use all three notes of the triad somewhere. Now listen back to the “chord of C major” you have made. Congratulations!
NOW here’s the exciting thing. Do it again but this time alter the positions of the instruments and the notes they play. Notice how the whole character and personality of the chord changes from “dark” to “light”, from “happy” to “sad” and so on.
Now go on to the brass family (counting upwards) tuba, trombones, trumpets. horns (note that the horns are so versatile they can also act as woodwinds, thus providing a link between the two families). Repeat the chord experiment.
Finally the same with the strings contrabass, cello, viola, second violin, first violin. Now do all over with different chords (a minor one, for example the same C and G but with an Eflat in it, the second black note above “middle” C)
Now mix the whole lot up.
If you conscientiously play around and experiment with these chords for an hour everyday, before long you will come to recognise the sounds the instruments make, their character and personality and how mixing up the basic elements of a chord, like primary colours on a palette, can create a multitude of orchestral colours. Pretty soon you will start to hear them in your head and appreciate that the tunes you conceive may be a flute tune, or an oboe tune or a trombone tune etc. and how these elements might chime with your darkest fantasies (gulp!)
And all this without the inconvenience of hiring a live orchestra. The instrumentalists won’t get bored or talk back or jeer, the leader won’t demand a union break exactly three hours after you start rehearsals or the band to be fed before the concert, and the brass won’t get drunk! Of course, I joke. If this is useful I can post another exercise in linear orchestration, if you like.
Onwards and upwards.

[mezzoforte]

mezzo, I can do this already. I'm interested as to how everyone else does it.
If you already know how to do that, then you also know that nothing else works, for the target only has one center. And if you can achieve your musical goals, then you know everything worth knowing about making music. What was the sense of your question then? Were you interested in the long way perhaps? If so, then here it is, The Long Way Explained:

Focus on your feet - put your left foot after your right foot; then, the right foot after the left foot. Repeat the procedure. Practice. Play with it: right left, left right; left left, right right. Now, backwards. Now, sideways. You're doing well. Good. You got it. Congratulations! That will sure get you SOMEWHERE, 'if you only walk long enough.'

[Peterkjones]

Well now, mezzoforte, with seventy posts to your credit, I think it's well past the time when we should hear some of your music posted in the café. Then we can all see what it is we're missing.
Bless,
PKJ

[PaulR]

Yes- it's very like primary and secondary colours. Also - it reminds me of digital camera's histograms.

[idragosani]

OK, here is how it's done, in three easy steps:
1\ Establish your goal.
2\ Find the means to achieve it.
3\ Go for it.
Did I say easy? Sorry, I meant: simple.

Or, you can take the long way:

From the Underpants Gnomes school of composing

[OneThrow]

Hi Xplora
Forget the “hippy-dippy-sh•t” here’s something practical. I guess you probably don’t read music or orchestral scores (if you do, forgive me if this seems patronising) but I assume you have a Midi controller and can find notes on the keyboatd. With SO you have a marvellous tool with which to start orchestrating.
Chordal practice...............
.............Of course, I joke. If this is useful I can post another exercise in linear orchestration, if you like.
Onwards and upwards.

Wonderful stuff. Sound advice.

[Xplora]

Snap! :)

I'll give that a crack Pete. Very practical starting point. I'm fortunate I guess that I've been playing guitar for 12 years and I'm not completely hopeless with chord theory (don't get me wrong though, I don't think I can name the notes in any chord without thinking for a second or 5). I'll have a crack at putting together some chords with different instruments. I guess the approach with orchestration of metal/rock is pretty much totally different to classical, to the point where I guess its unsurprising that your average rock fan will mainly get interested in percussive beds and soloists (Paganini and Chopin's Etudes come to mind), because rock is definitely black and white vs the cyan magenta and yellow of the classical orchestra.

[Peterkjones]

Hi Xplora,
Sorry if I seemed patronising in my post – it’s always difficult to know how to pitch the advice, so I always assume enquirers are novices so’s not to frighten the horses!. You’re obviously a long way ahead of the game with twelve years' experience as a bassist. Which raises the fascinating question as to why you would wish to include classical tropes into Hard Rock; I do sometimes think the two traditions make uneasy bedfellows. Like the notorious Deep Purple/RPO concert (BTW, I used to play Mozart piano duets with Jon Lord!)
Are you looking for some melodic and thematic enhancement of the rock combo, using the classical ensemble, or impactful harmonic chordal beds? Or perhaps both? In a word, writing in a linear or vertical fashion. If the latter, perhaps you could look at some examples of whiplash orchestral chords. Maybe see how the first four G minor chords of the Dies Irae from the Verdi Requiem are put together etc. etc. or the end of the Sibelius 1st.
As for the former, do you have access to British TV? See what they’ve done orchestrally to fill out the titles to the new Dr Who series (available via YouTube). This has spawned one of the biggest classical fusion concert circuses in recent years (sadly without the necessary credits to Delia Derbyshire, one of the originators of the title sequence and, incidentally, one of Britain’s best experimental woman composers of her generation). Not enough women in this Forum, either!
Best PKJ

[OneThrow]

Hi Xplora,
Which raises the fascinating question as to why you would wish to include classical tropes into Hard Rock; I do sometimes think the two traditions make uneasy bedfellows. Like the notorious Deep Purple/RPO concert

Oh you mean this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLyqdzu-F4k

See what they’ve done orchestrally to fill out the titles to the new Dr Who series (available via YouTube). This has spawned one of the biggest classical fusion concert circuses in recent years (sadly without the necessary credits to Delia Derbyshire, one of the originators of the title sequence and, incidentally, one of Britain’s best experimental woman composers of her generation).

Delia Derbyshire. Entirely agree.

[Altauria]

Oh dear, that video was simply awful!

Xplora, I completely agree with an aforementioned post about listening. If you have an idea of what styles of classical repertoire you may be interested, just listen as deeply and attentively as you can. You can even find a multitude of albums at your local library. Spend a day there and just listen. Listen, listen, listen.....ad nauseam.
Most classical radio stations will play the 'easy listening' of classical music; it's rather annoying. One particular station you should check out is Chicago's WFMT 98.7, you can find it on iTunes radio, or download the streaming playlist from their website. They are easily the finest classical radio station in the country, that which plays (heaven forbid!) engaging music, vocal music, modern music, and ENTIRE pieces.
Also, check out Bill McGlaughlin's "Exploring Music" on the same station, or do a google search for him. He give very thorough and interesting analysis of various pieces and subjects.

[Xplora]

LOL Pete, I thought you were kicking mezzo ;)

Check out Emperor - a track called Empty will be on Youtube. That's basically what I'm aiming for. Guitar sounds AWFUL for certain kinds of feels, and a tuba will manage to achieve a certain sense of doom that is physically impossible with any bass guitar sound I've managed to get into a PC. I guess I'm looking for a certain sense of serial and parallel writing; some things are useful as additions, others are useful as flourishes. In the end, I'm in love with the Wall of Sound, and I like the way classical instruments achieve that. You can do with synths and samples, but its ultimately less rewarding than knowing you could get HUMANS to create the wall.

Kind of like airdropping the pyramids vs dragging the boulders from the Upper Nile :) It's just not the same.

[Altauria]

If you're looking for a wall of sound, check out Gustav Mahler. His orchestrations have a monumental influence on film music, as it was the pinnacle of the Germanic Symphonic form and style. Huge orchestras, huge ideas, huge everything.

[Peterkjones]

Hi Xplora.
Yes, I see what you’re getting at. The reason I think the Deep Purple experiment was such a dismal failure was that they tried to graft the classical tradition onto the Rock tradition with the result that both withered on the vine. However, if the classical is integrated with the Rock to make one coherent aesthetic, I think it can work perfectly well. It then only becomes a matter of instrumentation/orchestration.
Perhaps we shouldn’t talk about classical tradition so much as classical method. It is tried and tested, but such rules as there are, are only procedural guides and can be broken at will (tho’ I guess it’s best to know about them first). In the Dies Irae of a Requiem I am working on at the moment, I’ve got a sinister and jaunty little tune for Tuba and Piccolo, exploiting both extremes of the orchestral palette – the classicists will say I’m nuts. Who cares!
In any case, I sometimes feel there’s far too much respect paid to the “classical” by the Rock and Pop world, almost to the point of an inferiority complex! After all, it’s all music, dammit.
And. d’you know, it seems to me you are already beginning to sus out in your head what you want. In which case, stop worrying and just do it. Listen lots and experiment lots on the lines you’ve been talking about – something will happen. Perhaps you’re destined to become the Phil Spector of classical/rock fusion, (tho’ without the complicated private life, eh?):D
Will we be able to hear something?
Best PKJ

[Xplora]

I have an idea of what I'm after, but I'm trying to wrap my brain around stage 2. I know I love tubas and Trombones (sooo good in the ultra low registers), and I luuuurve contrabass and contrabassoon, but I swear I can only remember the flute parts from Peter and the Wolf LOL. Childish whimsy isn't my aim.

To be honest I'd rather just be a composer of powerful music - I don't care how it comes out, just as long as it kicks your arse with a size 16 Doc Martens :) I'll have a tinker tonight. Gotta do something productive.

[Peterkjones]

Xplora,
Completely understand the imperative.
So, perhaps, in one of those costive periods when the arse seems inexorably glued to the floor, you could try the following.
Take the first line of a well-known tune – nursery rhyme? National Anthem? Star-spangled banner would be good “oh say – early light”
Load up a Strings>18 violins>long>sus non vib patch and record it in the middle register. Then load Woodwinds>Solo flute>sus and record the same, doubled one or two octaves above. What does it do to the tune? Brighter? Happier?
Mute the flute (!) and do the same with a solo oboe sus vib. What now? More melancholy? pastoral? Same with solo clarinet. More mellow? dignified? Same with solo bassoon an octave below. More lugubrious? Sombre? See how the doubled instruments affect the character of the melody. Do them in combination.
Repeat with brass.
Now load up legato cellos and score in a simple bass line (easy for you). Perhaps put a pizzicato contrabass point at the start of every measure to give some forward impetus to the melody (“Brahmsian criticism” says that’s all you need, a melody and a rooted bass line, however…)
Now, start to fill in one, two, harmonic lines with second (11) violins and violas, until you’re satisfied the thing sounds harmonically complete. Slowly add other ingredients to reinforce the melodic and harmonic lines. Try them in various combinations. Hey presto! You’re doing “classical” orchestration.
It may be like pulling teeth for you, but very soon you’ll get on top of the sounds and what they do and in what combinations and dynamics.
Then start tinkering with one of your own pieces – surprise and thrill yourself!:eek:
All the very best.

[jef4ever]

Personnaly ,after writing the guitar/bass and drums sections ,i try to harmonize around the "metal" section , i think every intrument is important for exemple the violin follow a guitar chorus or piccolo flute for exemple.

i put the double bass and tuba , with the bass line (to gain a "darker" ambiance)

then i put the choirs to get some chords with piano or church organ for exemple!

[peter5992]

Hi Xplora, you're really into the low registers, aren't you - bass guitars, tubas and trombones would make for a pretty dark combo. Most rock and pop music already has a pretty solid bass foundation, it might work better to add some contrast using strings, or perhaps woodwinds (if those aren't drowned out by the band). Peter (Jones) has given some excellent advice, if you want to read more about orchestration there are excellent books like Adler on Orchestration (very much in the classical tradition, with separate CD's with audio and video samples), the guide to midi orchestration by Paul Gilreath (3rd edition, 4th edition in the making) and Acoustic and MIDI orchstration for the contemporary composer by Andrea Pejrolo and richard Deroso (has a CD with samples, and exercises too; and it doesn't just deal with the classical orchestra but eg also with drums, bass and guitar).

In the end of the day, orchestration is really about choosing the right instruments for the music flavor you are looking for - and with so many of them, it's hard to sum it up in a few words. It's like picking the rights ingredients for a meal.

If you're looking for classic / rock crossover samples (to inspire you, or to learn from), there's a lot of those around, eg Jeff Lynne from the Electric Light Orchestra (he was the front man of the band, wrote all the songs, lead singer, but also did all the strings arrangements even though he couldn't read notes - he just tried out on a keyboard what sounded right, copyists / arrangers / orchestrators would write the parts for live players), and there are plenty of good symphonic rock bands out there going back to the 60s with the Moody Blues. That Deep Purple video posted above didn't work at all for me by the way, as much as I have always been a fan (Child in Time, Smoke on the Water, My Woman from Tokyo - all total kick ass rock songs) - seems too much of a forced marriage. Believe I'm not alone here. ;-)

[KenK]

I don't see much mention of the "rough sketch" or "structure".
I get a lot of mileage out of coming up w/ the basic architecture of a piece before I write a single note.
I do something like this:

Intro
A section
B section
A' (variation)
Riffs based on Intro
B'

It's not all that basic or vague, sometimes a section is mood or rhythm specific.
Often I have the general character of a section in mind, but will save the writing of it til later.

This method gives me a schematic or game plan before I write anything.
This helps create a sense of motion or design in a piece.

my 2¢

KenK

[mezzoforte]

"I have been told that a young would-be composer wrote to Mozart, asking advice as to how to compose a symphony. Mozart responded that a symphony was a complex and demanding musical form and that it would be better to start with something simpler. The young man protested. 'But Herr Mozart, you wrote symphonies when you were younger than I am now.' And Mozart replied, 'I never asked how.'
"That is my favorite Mozart story." - Isaac Asimov

[Xplora]

"I have been told that a young would-be composer wrote to Mozart, asking advice as to how to compose a symphony. Mozart responded that a symphony was a complex and demanding musical form and that it would be better to start with something simpler. The young man protested. 'But Herr Mozart, you wrote symphonies when you were younger than I am now.' And Mozart replied, 'I never asked how.'
"That is my favorite Mozart story." - Isaac Asimov

LOL I like it.