I need a teacher.

[nexus85]

I absolutely love film music. I've been a fan of John Williams for years and I would just like to know if anyone on this site would be interested in teaching me. I'm 20 years-old, and though I've never actually written a film score, I'd really like to start and work hard. Musical knowledge is not a problem, I know all of my instrument ranges and I've been teaching piano for about 9 years. I just need a mentor/teacher, someone who'd be willing to instruct me on doing all of that. If anyone is interested, let me know.


David

[Moonchilde]

Maybe you should pick up a few orchestral scoring books which explain how the instruments work together and writing for sections and stuff? I'm sure a few members here could suggest a few titles and authors. Its just that, it is a lot of stuff for someone to teach, especially over the internet, and I'm sure someone who has that kind of knowledge is probably really busy writing rather than teaching. Not sure if a fee would be involved either ;) Check out some books though, especially since you already have advanced knowledge of music theory.

[shnurgle]

The best way to learn orchestrationand composition is by studying scores and listening. You know ho everyone here talks about expanding their sample libraries? It's the same with score collecions. You should buy as many as you can, everytime you hear a piece you like. If you like John williams you're in luck. You can buy his signature edition scores here (http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_fastresults.html?cart=33488201213717535). They're as close as you can get (no hackey arangements).

Textbooks are ok (Samual Adlers The Study of ORchestration is pretty comprehensive) but they don't compare at all to studying he ink in your favorite scores and listening to them while you do it.

[Moonchilde]

Thats good advice too. Having the scores there to read as you listen will help you learn a lot! You'll get to visually see what you're hearing. It is still a good idea to pick up a text book explaining orchestral set up and the do's and don'ts of orchestration.

[nexus85]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. It's just sometimes hard to set goals and keep them. Working for other people is a little bit easier, but what you guys have said should help me out a lot. I already have the Star Wars Suite. It's AWESOME. I've sequenced some on my keyboard, and it's a great thing to do it all yourself. Anyway, thanks for all your help.




David

[Moonchilde]

One way to start is by setting small goals. Like "I'm going to write a 15 second orchestral que using just strings" or something. After you get that, try a little larger, and work your way up. Small steps, then larger steps. If you set your goals too high, you may not get around to doing them, and it always feels good to accomplish something and have something visual or audible to show for your work. Its inspiring I guess. Try it out.

[JacquesMathias]

I'm not sure where you can buy but, Walter Piston's books are pretty good, from my point of view...There are 3 books. "Orchestration" , "Harmony" and "Counterpoint".
Also you can try the Rimsky Korsakov Orchestration book, very nice...by the way i remember reading a interview with J.Williams where he said he used to study this one at begin of his career...Very interesting reading!:)

[shnurgle]

it's really important to understand about orchestration texts and treatises though, that they usually do NOT discuss writing technique. They are generally "instrumentation" texts and as far as I'm concerned you're just as well downloading that info off the internet for free. You learn the ranges of the instruments, their clefs and transpositions, impossible intervals etc, but the information is very segregated. You don't for example learn how to voice chords within a section, how to voice chords across sections, how to utilize sectional combinations for effect and color, doubling rules as they apply to orchestration etc. In other words, most of what you WANT to learn from an orchestration text, you don't. That comes from score study, trial and error and transcription (in my experience).

There are exceptions to the rule though, Samual Adler's text DOES address some elements of intrasectional scoring, and (probably more valuable) offers a supplimental collection of audio CD's to listen to as you work through the text. Strauss's edit of Berlioz' treatise also is filled with illustrative examples (but fails to to have any organization or explanations)

If I were commiting to a text right now I'd go for Samual Adler's book. it's the most up to date and comprehensive out there, but def get hose audio CD's with it, and get your hands around as many scores as you can.

this is all just my limited close minded opinion btw.

[Moonchilde]

Thanks, maybe I could pick up a thing or two as well, Shnurg-dawg. Let our powers combine!:D

[sinkd]

but def get hose audio CD's with it...


Time to grease up that keyboard, my bleth.

:)

And: Sam's book is great. It's my first 'go to' whenever I have a question. That and anything Ravel wrote for orchestra.

DS

[nexus85]

Well, I already know a few things about sectional combination, like F. Horns and Trombone do a lot of work together, Harp and Piano, Strings with just about anything lol, Flute and clarinet, Oboe and other reeds, Piccolo and Flute, etc. It's just writing, and writing fast, that is hard for me. I read in an interview that John Williams writes all of his stuff by hand, and even orchestrates it by hand as well!!! That's just phenomenal. He said that writing with Finale and Sibelius and stuff like that is almost a distraction. Thanks for the tips, I'll keep those in mind, and I'm definitely going to get some of those books!



David

[Daryl]

I read in an interview that John Williams writes all of his stuff by hand, and even orchestrates it by hand as well!!! That's just phenomenal. He said that writing with Finale and Sibelius and stuff like that is almost a distraction. Thanks for the tips, I'll keep those in mind, and I'm definitely going to get some of those books!
David
I used to work for a composer who said exactly the same thing, but after watching me orchestrate one of his projects he decided to learn how to use Sibelius. Now he tends to type all his own orchestrations for the smaller projects himself, but still handwrites for the large cues. For someone who has spent a lifetime writing by hand it is very difficult to change, but those of us who are a bit younger have had to learn to use these new-fangled contraptions!

D

[nikolas]

You know I use Finale,

but I always write in hand everything I want to. From Solo Piano muisc, to very very large cues, and synphonic orchestras.

The thing is that usually I use a lot of drafts and notes and a lot of different papers at the same time (or looking back at a different page all the time), which would be really difficult to do if writting straight to the computer.

I'm 28, so rather young I have to say, but I always compose and orchestrate in manuscript and then copy in the computer. Not to mention that this way I do a really good rpoofreading (at least pitch and duration wise), for my own works, which can be a danting task otherwise.

Now on the topic issue.

Orchestration, instumentation and composing are three completly different issues.

All these ellements need practising on their own and with each other. I'm sure that just learning how to orchestrate (and of course the range of the instruments, which you already do), is not enough to write decent music.

Heck I always work form-wise (I'm pretty strickt with the forms I use), and very little improvisation. Idon't know if it's the right way to go, but if you do want to end up writting 10 minute works, you will need to organise. So Morphology also comes to mind...

[shnurgle]

I read in an interview that John Williams writes all of his stuff by hand, and even orchestrates it by hand as well!!!

I've always found writing by hand much faster than using the computer, especially when composing at he piano as Williams does. I only use finale for final presentation scores because my handwriting looks like it got hit with the ugly stick.

Also, Williams "orchestration" is really just a sketch. While he does most of (if not all the part assignment) he relies on the orchestrator to realize it in full score, so he hands the orchestrator a sketch that's really just a few grand staffs of scribble. (Granted all he info is there), but it's not like he's sitting there writing out full score and parts free hand.
EDIT: at least that's what i understand of his process.

[Kaatza_Music]

I'm not sure where you can buy but, Walter Piston's books are pretty good, from my point of view...There are 3 books. "Orchestration" , "Harmony" and "Counterpoint".
Also you can try the Rimsky Korsakov Orchestration book, very nice...by the way i remember reading a interview with J.Williams where he said he used to study this one at begin of his career...Very interesting reading!:)

Ah, I'm revealing my age, but my Walter Piston books are literally falling apart. They are great, I used them in college. I also have Rimsky's book, and it's good too. I also recommend "Twentieth Century Harmony" by Vincent Persichetti (WW Norton), "Form in Music" by Wallace Berry (Prentice-Hall), and "Elementary Harmony" & "Advanced Harmony" by Robert W. Ottman (Prentice-Hall).

I also have a ton of classical scores including miniature symphonic works by Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, etc. by Edition Eulenburg. I used to spend hours listening and following along with the scores. One summer I made a project out of analyzing "The Art of the Fugue" by JS Bach. Amazing work! And if you haven't already gotten into them, the late Beethoven string quartets are like the crown jewels. I love the last movement of #15 in A minor, Opus 132. He originally planned to use this theme for the last movement of the Ninth Symphony. It is one of the most beautiful pieces of music I have ever heard.

[gljm99]

When learning orchestraton I always advise not to start by looking at a Mahler symphony or other large orchestral work. The key to the study of orchestration is the realization that before one learns to put everything together en masse you have to learn what instruments are capable doing in more exposed settings. To get a true idea of what strings or any group of instruments sound like and what is there strernths and weaknesses don't grab for a score and recording of Beethoven's 9th - look at his string quartets, progress then by looking next at the Mendelshon string symphonies, then perhaps the Tchaikovsy Serenade for Strings, the Elgar Serenade for strings. Look at what Berg does in the Lyric Suite, Britten in the Variations on a Theme By Frank Bridge. In this way you get to understand what an instrument is like by saturating yourself with its sound in various situations. To get a good grasp of winds listen to the various band suites by Holst and Vaughn-Williams. Listen to the sonatas for solo winds and piano as these were designed to show off the instrument throughout its range.Why there's even a sonata for piano and hecklephone by Hindermith! Once you feel that you can, in your head, imagine what instrument in a particular group sound like in various combinations with each other then the next step is to do some actual writing. Take small pieces like the Bach Preludes and Fugues and set them for string quartet, string quintet . for just an orchestra consisting of Violas and Cellos.Then start to look at pieces that put the various groups together. Look at symphonic works by Mozart and Haydn see what they did with small resources then look at Beethoven ,Schubert, Schumann then finally Mahler ,Hindermith, Bartok etc. Composers today are lucky we have great sampleing programs which allow us to get a very good idea of what sounds good and what is not working. In the end doing and listening to the results are what teaches. Once after giving an assignment to his composition class Shostakovich was approched by one of his students who quizzed him if a theme the student had written would be good for the assigned piece , or did Shostakovich feel it might not work or couldn't be developed etc. Shostakovich in his annoyance stopped his student and said "Don't ask me, just go try and you'll get your answer"

[nexus85]

Thank you. I'll do as much as I can!

[alligatorlizard]

Hi,

regarding what someone said about scores for John Williams music: I've been trying to get hold of some orchestral scores for movie music for a while now, but all I can find is "arranged for solo piano" etc.

Following your link, this is still all I can find, though presumably I'm not looking in the right place - do they actually have scores for orchestra? Mini-scores would be ideal (all on one page-ish).

Would love to see some Elfman scores aswell - you must be able to get the Batman theme score somewhere? Any advice on finding these would be much appreciated - I've been told by many people that studying scores is the best way to learn.

By the way, I've yet to get it, but I've been told Simon Adler's "The study of orchestration" is a great reference book for arranging.

[alligatorlizard]

patience pays... after a bit more searching on "sheet music plus" I've found the batman score, conductiors edition, exactly what I was after! Thanks!

Still can't find the John Williams full orchestral though.

[alligatorlizard]

Sorry to post 3 replies in a row, but I've now tracked down all I need - have found the batman score, the main star wars themes and many others, all conductors scores - genuinely have been searching for these for ages, so many thanks for the link to sheetmusicplus, whoever that was! Now just got to wait four weeks for them to be shipped to UK...