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Scott Rogers
05-09-2005, 05:23 PM
I already posted this in another thread regarding the Pro upgrade, but I'm afraid it may have inadvertently slipped under the radar, so I'll go ahead and post it again.

And at this point I don't think most people even care about hearing the big, official, "production piece" types of demos. If only just a single instrument and/or violin section would play a line at a moderate tempo with small and larger intervals to demonstrate the QLegato feature, that would be nice.

Or at the very least, it would be helpful if we could have some insight into what QLegato actually is. Is it a connecting mechanism that will enable a legato like joining of the various sustains already in existence, or is it an entire intrument in and of itself which has no bearing on the various other sustains. If you can, please tell us how applicable the QLegato is going to be across the range of samples, and in what ways.

And I'm also wondering about the staccatos (in the Pro upgrade). The library needs some very short, secco staccatos for double and triple-tonguing and fast tonguing in tempos where you have 16ths where a quarter is equal to, say, 172 bpm. The present big fat staccatos are fine for times when they are needed, but they're all at least two times as long and large as what some of the faster tempos require.

So even if a few simple examples can't be posted yet, a few details would really be appreciated.

Thanks.

deathadder79
05-09-2005, 07:47 PM
Or at the very least, it would be helpful if we could have some insight into what QLegato actually is. Is it a connecting mechanism that will enable a legato like joining of the various sustains already in existence, or is it an entire intrument in and of itself which has no bearing on the various other sustains. If you can, please tell us how applicable the QLegato is going to be across the range of samples, and in what ways.

Thanks for posting this... I am wondering exactly the same thing, but felt embarrassed to ask... It seemed like everyone already knew exactly what is was, so I thought I missed some post or info blurb or something... glad to know I'm not alone.

Nick Phoenix
05-09-2005, 08:26 PM
The QLegato samples are all new samples that sound naturally connected in a pristine way. There is no pitch sliding, although we did sample some of that also.

Scott Rogers
05-09-2005, 08:34 PM
Nick, do they connect the already existing sustains? I'm trying to figure out if they are a means of connecting the new and the old sustains from both libraries.

Thanks.

synergy543
05-09-2005, 09:12 PM
If you have RA try the Erhu keyswitching C#0 compared to C0. I think this might be what Nick was referring to.

You get a distinct down bow on C0 and a smooth legato with C#0.
Switching between the two works quite well I think.

Gregory D. Moore

Scott Rogers
05-10-2005, 12:53 PM
Please, can we have a little more information on the QLegato? I know you're all very busy, what with being on the cusp of some major releases, and I don't want you to give out any trade secrets, but I'm really just looking for some clarifying information regarding the QLegato. If I haven't explained well enough what it is I'm wanting to know, please tell me and I'll try again.

Thank you.

deathadder79
05-10-2005, 04:21 PM
Hi Scott,

I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt... but judging by what was said above and my own use of RA, as well as the very few tidbits in the PDF RA manual... it appears that QLegato is basically just samples with a very soft initial attack that quickly swells up... unlike traditional legato samples, which slowly swell up, these can be played at a quick tempo and still sound good... unlike non legato samples, the initial attack is soft and you don't hear obvious re-articulations (to a certain extent)... it still sounds like someone playing a wind or bowed instrument on a keyboard, though (might be my sub par skills).

this isn't quite the same as having the transition samples to work with (at least, I don't think), like the VSL performance tool... but at the same time, it's a lot easier and quicker than editing the patches and/or volume curves - though tweaking will still likely be needed for a completely realistic legato... and it seems like they will be a heck of a lot easier to work with compared to the EWQLSO legato samples…

others, please feel free to correct this information if it is wrong...

Toxikator
05-10-2005, 06:15 PM
I think that the samples are recorded as "hammer-on" (forgive the guitarist lingo). for example, play a C or whatever and then PLAY legato to D, then sample JUST the noise of the starting D. this way, the natural 'chaining' of notes sounds natural (since the D isn't an individual note, it's what it would sound like in a legato phrase). This of course, doesn't work for large jumps or serious slurring (like a slide on a solo violin).

Compared to VSL legato: VSL legato works like Vocaloid. It samples the sound BETWEEN EVERY PAIR OF NOTES and loads the transition samples between notes. this is great for realistic slides and the like, but the problem is that it's tempo-determinate (very slow phrases will sound jumpy, and very fast phrases can outpace the transition samples and get some irritating sounds). theoretically, Qlegato should work better EXCEPT in the case of slides, because you can use it at any tempo, and it seems Nick and Doug have had enough insight to add some slides as well, in case you need them.

Tox

Scott Rogers
05-10-2005, 06:32 PM
Thank you DeathAdder and Toxikator. (Why do I suddenly feel like a member of a Hell's Angels biker gang? :) )

If both of you are correct, or even close, it sounds like QLegato will not be applicable to connecting the already existing sustains and so its use will be very limited. At least that's what I am led to believe based on the dearth of information we have been given about it. But I'm tired of asking for specific information only to get nothing in return and I pretty much give up at this point.

Doug Rogers
05-10-2005, 08:02 PM
Thank you DeathAdder and Toxikator. (Why do I suddenly feel like a member of a Hell's Angels biker gang? :) )

If both of you are correct, or even close, it sounds like QLegato will not be applicable to connecting the already existing sustains and so its use will be very limited. At least that's what I am led to believe based on the dearth of information we have been given about it. But I'm tired of asking for specific information only to get nothing in return and I pretty much give up at this point.

Scott,

QLegato is hard to explain, it's easier to demonstrate, and that will happen in the near future.

- Doug

dcoscina
05-10-2005, 08:43 PM
Scott,

QLegato is hard to explain, it's easier to demonstrate, and that will happen in the near future.

- Doug

You have to experience it to believe it, eh Doug? That's cool. Is the May 31st release date looking good? Sorry to be a pest....

remmet
05-10-2005, 08:59 PM
Do I understand correctly that QLegato will only be available as part of the Pro Upgrade? In other words, if you owned the original Platinum Edition, you would have to buy the Pro Upgrade package to utilize QLegato?

For people who have not yet purchased an original EWQLSO package, would buying the Pro Upgrade give them the original AND the new content?

Kayamb
05-10-2005, 09:16 PM
From what I understand, there are upgrades, which means there are some extra samples, not just to replace the samples from the normal EWQLSO libraries. In other words, PRO upgrade is completing the normal library.

That is, to get the PRO, you'll need to get the normal one first.

Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

Doug Rogers
05-10-2005, 09:37 PM
QLegato programs are only available in the Pro Upgrades and only work with the Pro Upgrades.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-10-2005, 09:40 PM
Is the May 31st release date looking good? Sorry to be a pest....

No, we're trying to figure out how long it's going to take to finish the Pro Upgrades and then we'll change the date. Unfortunately, Symphonic Choirs took longer than expected and this delayed the Pro Upgrades also.

- Doug

Evan
05-10-2005, 11:52 PM
No, we're trying to figure out how long it's going to take to finish the Pro Upgrades and then we'll change the date. Unfortunately, Symphonic Choirs took longer than expected and this delayed the Pro Upgrades also.

- Doug

I'm kinda glad..it'll give me more time to decide whether almost 2 months of rent at college is worth buying this, before the 30% discount ends! :)

remmet
05-11-2005, 12:54 AM
Doug - Is there a chance that some music demos of the upgrades with QLegato could be posted BEFORE the 30% discount ends? That way, we could make informed decisions about what we'd be getting. Thanks!

janila
05-11-2005, 04:47 AM
No, we're trying to figure out how long it's going to take to finish the Pro Upgrades and then we'll change the date. Unfortunately, Symphonic Choirs took longer than expected and this delayed the Pro Upgrades also.

- DougDoes this mean that I can count on being able to buy the Silver PRO + RA + EWQLSC bundle in june (I need to know the month for my credit card limit) for $1490? When will it ship? Do I get RA and EWQLSC earlier and Silver PRO as an additional shipment or do I have to wait for RA and EWQLSC until the Silver PRO is shipping?

dcoscina
05-11-2005, 06:03 AM
Yeah, I'm actually happy that the date is being moved myself. That will give me more time to save for either Silver or Gold.

Cool!

p.s. I'm assuming that the points we've accumulated will still be forfeit after May 31st though...

Prophecy
05-11-2005, 07:31 AM
i wonder if anyone knows the upgrade price from Gold PRO , to Platinum PRO?

It's the difference between the list prices.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-11-2005, 09:31 AM
Doug - Is there a chance that some music demos of the upgrades with QLegato could be posted BEFORE the 30% discount ends? That way, we could make informed decisions about what we'd be getting. Thanks!

Yes, it's priority for us to do this. You won't miss out on anything.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-11-2005, 09:33 AM
Does this mean that I can count on being able to buy the Silver PRO + RA + EWQLSC bundle in june (I need to know the month for my credit card limit) for $1490? When will it ship? Do I get RA and EWQLSC earlier and Silver PRO as an additional shipment or do I have to wait for RA and EWQLSC until the Silver PRO is shipping?

Yes - the bundle dates will be extended also.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-11-2005, 09:35 AM
i wonder if anyone knows the upgrade price from Gold PRO , to Platinum PRO?

It's the difference between the list prices.

- Doug

Patrick Shove
05-11-2005, 12:53 PM
Doug and Nick:

As a Gold user, I'm very much looking forward to the Gold Pro upgrade, which I hope to purchase soon. I'm also curious about one of the articulations listed under 11 Violins, specifically "Harmonics false." Is that another name for "artificial harmonics"? Or does it refer to the technique of applying very little bow pressure on the string to produce, as one person puts it, "a soft, ghostly whistle"? I'm vaguely familiar with the effect. If I recall correctly, it doesn't ring like a true harmonic (natural or artificial), but it sounds cool nonetheless.

Cheers,

Pat

P.S. Any chance you might throw in a few more Close and Surround files in the Gold Pro upgrade?

Prophecy
05-11-2005, 04:21 PM
i have another Pro related question..
can you buy and use gold pro if you are a platinum user?

Joris

Syncopator
08-06-2005, 02:45 AM
Please, can we have a little more information on the QLegato? I know you're all very busy, what with being on the cusp of some major releases, and I don't want you to give out any trade secrets, but I'm really just looking for some clarifying information regarding the QLegato. If I haven't explained well enough what it is I'm wanting to know, please tell me and I'll try again.

Thank you.
From another forum:

>> QLegato is not interval sampling as in VSL. It is a method of playing, sampling and editing that has never been done before. There is a different technique employed depending on the instrument. It produces attacks identical to those heard in the middle of a phrase. However there is no bending of the note. It sounds like 95% of the legato notes heard in the middle of a phrase. We sampled octave and other slides to take care of moments where a true legato slide is needed. In practice, it is very effective and works well for slow or fast material. And of course it will radically decrease the time needed to make smooth lines. In truth, it has sonic and practical advantages over interval sampling and it also has disadvantages. It is not time dependent, so you won't hear sucking or fakeness when you play fast, but you also don't get the automatic sliding of the note. You'll have to use specific articulations for that. You will really like it. It's not just a gimmick. It also has the advantage of immaculate tuning, which is part of it's charm and a blessing for editors and programmers. <<

jloeb
08-06-2005, 07:05 PM
Which forum was this??

Syncopator
08-06-2005, 07:11 PM
Which forum was this??
Can't remember. I did a Google search. Might have been kvr.

Syncopator
08-06-2005, 07:26 PM
Which forum was this??
OK, I found it. Turns out it was from the Google *cache* of an old page from the (now deleted) EWQL forum at Northern Sound Source. And the person posting was supposedly quoting Nick from a previous post.... Amazing what you can find, sometimes....

RickD
08-07-2005, 09:18 AM
Please, can we have a little more information on the QLegato? I know you're all very busy, what with being on the cusp of some major releases, and I don't want you to give out any trade secrets, but I'm really just looking for some clarifying information regarding the QLegato. If I haven't explained well enough what it is I'm wanting to know, please tell me and I'll try again.

Thank you.

Scott,

I think Nick has answered your question, QLegato = new samples. And I think the Gold Pro instrument answers the question of which instruments contain the "new samples".

Here's a run down of the "new" EWQLSO Gold Pro Library including Qlegato instruments, which I underlined for you:

EASTWEST/QUANTUM LEAP SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRA GOLD PROFESSIONAL UPGRADE

EASTWEST is proud to announce a significant addition to the award-winning EASTWEST/QUANTUM LEAP SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRA.

GOLD PROFESSIONAL (GoldPro) has 1 stereo mic position and is 16-bit.

PLEASE NOTE: The instruments and articulations that were not included in the original Gold Edition from the original Platinum Edition will be added to the GoldPro upgrade. In addition, the full version of the EASTWEST STEINWAY B GRAND PIANO will be included.

INSTRUMENTS/ARTICULATIONS

STRINGS

3 Cellos
Sus Vib mp
Sus Vib f heavy vib
flautando nv

4 Violins
Sus Vib mp
Sus Vib f heavy vib
flautando nv

10 Cellos
Qlegato mp
Qlegato F
Marcato short FFF ugly x2
Spiccato up Down
Sordino mp med vib
Sordino mf heavy vib
Col Legno chromatic
Sul Ponticello tremolo
Bartok Pizz
Oct up to sus vib

10 Violas
Pizz P
Pizz MF
Pizz F
Qlegato MP
Qlegato MF
Sul Ponticello near bridge tremolo
Col Legno chromatic
Sordino MP med vib
Sordino MF heavy vib
1/2 step trill
Whole step trill
Tremolo F
Spiccato up down
Machine Gun x17 1 bar at 120 BPM
Flautando legato
Bartok Pizz
oct up to sus vib

11 Violins
Qlegato P
Qlegato F
Sordino MP med vib
Sordino MF heavy vib
Harmonics false
Staccato Up Down P x2
Marcato 2 sec heavy vib especially high up
Sul ponticello (near bridge) tremolo
Flautando legato
Tremolo f
Col Legno chromatic
Pendereki bridge and normal stac and long
Whole step trills VERY slow cluster FX
Static Clusters 3 low, med, high
Spiccato Up Down
Machine Gun Rep x17 1 bar at 120 BPM
Octave slide up fast to sus mf 2 sec bow
Octave slide down fast to sus mf 2 sec
5th slide up to 4 sec sus heavy vib F
5th slide down to 4 sec sus heavy vib F
Psycho FX 1- 2 1/2 steps up fast (3 notes)
Psycho FX 4- minor third half step up fast
Psycho FX 6- 3 1/2 steps down fast
fast 1 sec nv 1 full bow F
scratch fx

18 Violins
Qlegato mp
Qlegato f
spiccato up down x 2
octave up mf fast to 1 sec sus bow on string
octave down mf fast to 1 sec sus
Pendereki
Bartok Pizz

Harp
C D E F# G# Bb maj gliss up slow
maj gliss up fast
maj gliss down slow
maj gliss down fast
maj up down slow, fast

6 gliss up slow
6 gliss up fast
6 gliss down slow
6 gliss down fast
6 up down slow, fast

dominant 9 up slow
dominant 9 up fast
dominant 9 down slow
dominant 9 down fast
dominant 9 up down slow, fast

wholetone stuff C

wholetone stuff C#

Scary Effect in C

Solo Cello
Sul Tasto 2 bows
Qlegato F 3 bows ****** I can understand the economy of this choice, this should work with the (3) cello's ensemble
Pizzicato MP
Pizzicato MF
Col Legno chromatic
Octave Slides Up to sus 2 sec mp
Pizzicato F
Creaks

Solo Contrabass
Sus Vib mp
Sus Vib f
Martele Short Up Down mp
Martele Short Up Down f
Martele short up down mf
Col Legno chromatic
Exp fast mf
Spiccato Up Down F
1 sec full bow stroke nv
Pizz mp
Pizz mf
Pizz F
Exp long subtle mp
Marcato FFF short

Solo Viola
Sus Vib mp 2 bows
Sus Vib f 2 bows
Qlegato mp 3 bows
Marcato FF short
Martele short Up Down x4 MF
Col Legno chromatic
Pizz mp
Pizz mf
Pizz f
Exp subtle soft long
Exp medium cresc 2 bows
Spiccato Up Down MP
Sus NV MF with fast atk
Exp fast cres romantic
1 sec full bow stroke up down nv
1/2 step trills
Whole step trills
Octave up to sus vib

Solo Violin
Qlegato MP 3 bows
Qlegato F 3 bows
Pizzicato P
Pizzicato MF
Pizzicato F
Spiccato Up Down
Marcato short FF nv
Subtle exp P leg light vib no swell
Octave slide up to 2 sec sus mp bow on string
Octave slide down to 2 sec sus mp
5th slide up to 2 sec heavy vib F
Col legnochromatic
1/2 step trills
whole step trills
120 bpm machine gun x17

WOODWINDS

Bass Clarinet
Sus NV mf to go in between last time
Portato 3 second mp
Qlegato mp
Qlegato mf
Keyclicks

English Horn
2 dark and beautiful
Sus Vib mp smooth fast atk delay vib
Portato nv mp
Exp subtle mp atk
Qlegato mp
Qlegato mf
Exp mf lyrical miroslav
1/2 step trills
Whole step trills
Staccato mp
Staccato mf
Staccato F
grace notes

Concert Flute
very short staccato mp
very short staccato mf
very short staccato f
short staccato overblown
1/2 step trills
Whole step trills
Qlegato mp
Qlegato f
Psycho 2 1/2 steps down fast FF x2
sus nv p
Octave run up fast F
Octave Run down fast F
Octave run up and down fast F
Sforzando Exp

Piccolo Flute
NV p
Qlegato mf vib
Psycho 2 1/2 step down fast
Rips up 5th FFF squeak fast x2
Rips up 3rd FFF squeak fast x2
octave up fast
octave down fast
octave up down fast
Rips up 2 half steps

Solo Bassoon
mp vibrato with atk
Qlegato mf
1/2 step trills
Whole step trills

Solo Clarinet
Qlegato mp
Qlegato mf
Portato subtle 3 seconds mp
1/2 Step trills
Whole step trills
Exp very quick lyrical bump 2 sec sus
Octave up fast
Octave down fast
Octave up down fast
keyclicks
Octave up fast slur
grace notes

Solo Oboe
Qlegato mp
Qlegato f
soft exp with slight swell
key clacks

BRASS
2 Bb Trumpets
Mute Sus mp
Mute Sus f
Mute Staccato mp x 4
Mute Staccato f x4
Mute Rips
Mute Cresc to flutter 3 sec
VERY short staccato mp x6
VERY short staccato mf x6
VERY short staccato ff x6
Machine Gun x17 1 bar at 120 BPM
Sus mp
Sus mf
Sus fff
Portato 3 sec mf subtle cresc decres
Cresc to ff 1 sec
Cresc to ff 2 sec
Marcato mf
Marcato f
Qlegato mp
Qlegato mf
1/2 step trills f
Whole step trills f
Octave Up to sus 3 sec
Octave Down to sus 3 sec
crazy fx

4 Bass Bones
Mute Sus mp
Mute Sus f
Mute staccato mp x2
Mute staccato mf x2
Mute cresc 2 sec to flutter
Sus FFF
Portato 3 sec subtle cres decres mp
Portato 3 sec subtle cres decres f
Bend downs 1/2 step Mummy
stac fff x 3 very short
Marcato 1 sec FF
Marcato 1 sec MF
Clusters mp

4 Tenor Bones
Mute Sus mp
Mute Sus mf
Mute staccato mp x3
Mute staccato mf x3
Mute cresc 2 sec to flutter
Sus FFF
Portato 3 sec subtle cres decres mp
Portato 3 sec subtle cres decres f
Marcato 1 sec FF
Marcato 1 sec MF
Bend downs 1/2 step Mummy
stac fff x 4 very short
Clusters mp long 3 1/2 step chromatic

6 French Horns
Marcato f 1 sec
Stac short mp x2
Stac short mf x2
Stac short f x2
Stac short ff x2
Crescendo P-FF 1 sec
Crescendo P-FF 2 sec
Crescendo P-FF flutter 3 sec
Portato NV 3 sec subtle cresc and decres mp
Portato NV 3 sec subtle cresc and decres f
1/2 Step trills mf
Whole Step lip trills ff
Machine Gun sus x17 1 bar at 120 BPM
Muted Sustain mf
Qlegato mp
Qlegato f typical med bright
Octave up to 3 sec sus MF
Octave down to 3 sec sus MF
clusters like the shining some stay on pitch others go down whole tone
cluster cresc like ewqlso 1
1/2 step bend downs like the village
Matrix Hell
Clusters

Piccolo trumpet
Sus mp
Sus f
Stac mp x2
Stac f x2
1/2 step trills
Whole step trills
Marcato mf

Solo Bass Bone
Sus fff
Portato 3 sec mf
Portato 3 sec f
Marcato f 1 sec
Stac mp
Stac mf
Stac ff

Solo Bb Trumpet 2
Sus NV mp
Sus NV mf
Sus NV ff
Stac short mp x8
Stac short mf x8
Stac short ff x8
Crescendo NV P-FF 1 sec
Crescendo NV P-FF 2 sec
Crescendo NV P-FF flutter 3 sec
Portato NV 2 sec subtle cresc and decresc mp
Portato NV 2 sec decresc mf atk
Portato NV 2 sec decresc f atk
Sus SLOW VIB MP 2 sec delay decres vib fade
Qlegato mp NV
Qlegato mf NV
Qlegato mp slow immediate vib
Qlegato mf slow immediate vib
Sus NV marcato 1 sec (long stac) MF
Sus NV marcato 1 sec (long stac) FF
Octave Up sus
Octave Up gliss stac F
3 note fall chromatic

Solo Horn
Staccato short p
Staccato short mp
Staccato short mf
Qlegato mp
Qlegato mf-f
Staccato short FF

Solo Tenor Bone
Sus fff
Stac fff
Portato 3 sec mf
Marcato f 1 sec
Qlegato MP
Qlegato F
Mute sus mp
Mute sus f

Solo Tuba
Sus FF
Mute Sus F
Marcato 1 sec MF
Marcato 1 sec FF
Portato 3 sec MF
Stac FFFF short

ORCHESTRAL PERCUSSION
Celeste 2 vel + rel
Marimba 3 vel
Sleigh bells 2 kinds
Wood Blocks 8 different blocks multi vel
2 different Triangle open mute trem
Larger Anvil
puilli sticks 2 types
Waterphone 50 variations
Rub Rods
Tambourine high pitch
Steel Plates
Taikos
Slapsticks
Mahler Hammer
small guiro
Wind machine
Harpsichord
Artillery Shells
Washboard
5 ft gong fx
37" Tam Tam fx
26" Zildjian Ride complete
18" Zildjian Crash fx
Large Roto Toms

Timpani
Med hard mallet 16 vel left hand
Med hard mallet rolls constant loopable F
Soft mallet 4 vel from medium to FF

*************************************

After poring through the instrument list, my excitement for this library has absolutely been renewed! Do it Nick!! Now if you can just combine each instrument group into one patch that ties all the articulations into one seamless and cohesive musical instrument, then your library will have my undivided attention. :)

Rick

Scott Rogers
08-07-2005, 01:51 PM
Scott,

I think Nick has answered your question, QLegato = new samples.
Hi Rick. No, he hasn't, but I don't care anymore so that's okay.

Syncopator
08-07-2005, 02:45 PM
Hi Rick. No, he hasn't, but I don't care anymore so that's okay.
Scott, did the quote from Nick that I posted yesterday from the Google archives not answer your question? Perhaps Nick hasn't answered you personally, but I do feel like the question has been answered and the term QLegato satisfactorily defined.

Scott Rogers
08-07-2005, 02:50 PM
Hi Syncopator. This is an old issue for me and I dropped it a long time ago. But thanks for posting that info you found because it'll probably help some people.

Cheers.

Syncopator
08-07-2005, 03:10 PM
Hi Syncopator. This is an old issue for me and I dropped it a long time ago. But thanks for posting that info you found because it'll probably help some people.

Cheers.
Got it. Thanks.

AndyFinkenstadt
11-19-2005, 08:29 AM
Bump for information on QLegato.

Scott Rogers
11-19-2005, 12:49 PM
Andy,

Unfortunately Qlegato is pretty lame. The most it can do is perhaps mitigate that sucking sound when trying to connect notes, but it doesn't do anything that samplists haven't been doing themselves for years now, and the sad fact is that there is no legato in Qlegato.

Doug Rogers
11-19-2005, 01:56 PM
Andy,

Unfortunately Qlegato is pretty lame. The most it can do is perhaps mitigate that sucking sound when trying to connect notes, but it doesn't do anything that samplists haven't been doing themselves for years now, and the sad fact is that there is no legato in Qlegato.

The demos prove otherwise. Like any tool, you need to learn how to use it.

- Doug

Scott Rogers
11-19-2005, 02:43 PM
Actually, the demos prove *my* point. I know what I'm hearing because I know what I'm talking about, and if you think I'm alone in this opinion then you are sorely mistaken.

sirbellog
11-19-2005, 02:53 PM
deleted by myself : It was the wrong topic to reply to., So I moved my post
---
But since I'm here anyway,
I'll say that QLeg seems promising so far.

Doug Rogers
11-19-2005, 03:22 PM
Actually, the demos prove *my* point. I know what I'm hearing because I know what I'm talking about, and if you think I'm alone in this opinion then you are sorely mistaken.

The feedback we are getting from *actual users* is the complete opposite.

- Doug

matthew82475
11-20-2005, 08:44 AM
QLegato is hard to explain, it's easier to demonstrate, and that will happen in the near future.

For what it's worth, I'm with some of the posters here...trying to figure out exactly how Qlegato is intended to be used. For example, in the "Goodbye" demo by Ron James, the upper strings, especially in the beginning, still have a strong wah, wah, wah effect. Was Qlegato not used for those parts?

Perhaps a side-by-side comparison along with a description of the sequencing techniques used might help alleviate some confusion. For example, in Qlegato sequencing should note ons overlap note offs or are they designed to start immediately after the previous note off?

Thanks in advance for considering it...

Matt

shnurgle
11-20-2005, 10:05 AM
I'll second that. While I'm impressed with the qlegato portions of the demos (or at least what I'm pretty sure are the qlegato portions) I'm not finding convinving legato line creation instantly achievable.

Because the qlegato patches have virtually no attack, it is clear that they are intended for "middle of phrase" positioning. However, using attack patches to book-end qlegato runs hasn't yielded the result I'd hoped for. I am finding a more synthy sound to be the case (only using the qlegato mind you!)

Obviously, as a new sequencing tool, qlegato will take a bit of experimentation to get used to, nevertheless, a bit of advice from the masters woud be much appreesh, my brothers.

-Shnurg

PS: what's the "q" for?

Josta
11-20-2005, 11:09 AM
And I'll third that...

To be honest, my first impressions of "QLegato" so far are lukewarm. That's after spending quite a bit of time playing about a dozen of the Qlegato patches so far this weekend.

It appears that the long-awaited and shrouded-in-mystery Qlegato is simply a sample taken from an individual note (perhaps from a legato phrase), with the attack cut off and a synthetic attack envelope added via the AHDSR in Kompakt.

I agree with shnurgle that, to my ears, the result can be "synthetic" sounding. Especially with the string QLegato patches I've auditioned so far, the result seems lacking in the details that create a sense of real string players--to my ears, the sound seems somewhat "smeared"--a sound not so far from a string patch on an analog synth.

To provide a point of comparison, I tried several of the QLegato patches side-by-side with some of the VSL performace legato instruments that are provided with Kontakt 2. I generally preferred the VSL performace legatos. With these, you are hearing actual legato transitions between two notes (so long as the second note is within +/- an octave of the first). It takes a little practice to obtain the proper keyboard legato technique for these instruments, but it's not difficult. Also, the VSL performance legatos allow only one note to sound at a time (except briefly during the transitions between notes when both sound.) I think this provides clearer and more realistic legato phrasing for many instuments.

I want to stay open-minded to the possibility that there's some trick of technique we're missing here, or simply a bit of a learning curve. Though, page 49 of the Symphonic Orchestra Operation Manual states:

There is no tool or special technique. Simply play and enjoy the sound. QLegato programs can be used in place of sustain programs or alongside them.

I hope some more info may be forthcoming from "The Masters". ;^)

Joe

Doug Rogers
11-20-2005, 11:40 AM
I hope some more info may be forthcoming from "The Masters". ;^)

Joe

Nick is in hospital after surgery yesterday and can't be here. However, there is an explanation on page 3 of this thread that he wrote over a year ago.

In use, the important thing is to connect the notes. There is no other voodoo involved. It's a tool that's to be used along with all the other tools.

QLegato is just one small part of the PRO XP upgrade, there are hundreds of other additions and improvements. In our biased opinion, the quality of the library overall has been significantly improved, and it was pretty good before. We feel the demos show some of the improvements that have been made. If you are already a satisfied Silver, Gold or Platinum user, the PRO XP upgrade is a no brainer.

- Doug

gungnir
11-20-2005, 11:57 AM
Although it seems it never gets through to most people, it nevertheless has to restated, again and again, that the only way to assess the functional realism of samples (legato or otherwise), is to compare them with recordings of actual orchestral performances.

How can you ever judge if one approach is superior to the other without isolating particular phrases played by real players? Tailor-made demos, although very professionally generated, are totally useless for this particular purpose.

Many people have concluded that, alas, one must own both QLSO (pure sonic beauty) and VSL (actual legato samples) to do the job.

I believe it would be more fruitful at this stage for forum members to discuss the issues involved in achieving optimization when combining the libraries rather than continuing to compare them.

Evan
11-20-2005, 12:01 PM
give my best to Nick :(

anton
11-20-2005, 12:03 PM
My Best to Nick

Miguelo Adorno
11-20-2005, 12:48 PM
I hope a quick recovery for Nick.

I was wondering would it be hard to write a decent Kontakt 2 legato script for EWQLSO instruments. Those VSL legato programs included in K2 works really nice but I think their sound is way behind EWQLSO. I've tried a couple of user made scripts but those didn't work very well. I quess the release trails makes it a little tricky.

- Mikko

matthew82475
11-20-2005, 01:13 PM
Doug,

Perhaps my previous post was misleading. I wasn't questioning the quality of the Pro upgrade nor was I intending to make a comparison with any other product. I am simply wondering what you were thinking of, or what was your approach, or what technique did you use, or what sequencing model was used (pick the phrase that is most appropriate and descriptive) when you were designing the Qlegato patch.

How did you intend for it to be used? I don't see how the Qlegato concept could have been developed without having some applicative approach in mind.

Along those lines, I was hoping that a quick example could be made and posted that would demonstrate what EWQLSO was doing before and after Qlegato was integrated. Does that make sense? In this was, those of us who are confused about how to use it the way it was intended could understand the technique and, perhaps more importantly, here the difference.

I appologize if my original post came across as sounding convicting of Pro, Qlegato, or anything else related to EW.

Thanks,

Matt

ntm
11-20-2005, 01:42 PM
Speedy recovery to Nick, my best wishes. What happened to him, if I may ask? Will he be ok?

ToddK
11-20-2005, 01:44 PM
Hope Nick recovers soon.

TK

Evan
11-20-2005, 01:59 PM
I hope a quick recovery for Nick.

I was wondering would it be hard to write a decent Kontakt 2 legato script for EWQLSO instruments. Those VSL legato programs included in K2 works really nice but I think their sound is way behind EWQLSO. I've tried a couple of user made scripts but those didn't work very well. I quess the release trails makes it a little tricky.

- Mikko

there is a guy working on one...not sure he'll release it though

chocothrax
11-20-2005, 02:25 PM
I hope a quick recovery for Nick.

I was wondering would it be hard to write a decent Kontakt 2 legato script for EWQLSO instruments. Those VSL legato programs included in K2 works really nice but I think their sound is way behind EWQLSO. I've tried a couple of user made scripts but those didn't work very well. I quess the release trails makes it a little tricky.

- Mikko

But don't they sound great because VSL recorded the intervals between notes? You can't just make some script that'll turn non legato stuff magically into VSL's level of legato I don't think. There's a couple of people though who have found out ways to improve the legato in EWQLSO using Kontakt 2 but it doesn't sound like the legato in VSL perf patches..but it's still better than this Qlegato stuff.

Miguelo Adorno
11-20-2005, 03:53 PM
Yes, I know the interval sampling. Though, it would be nice to have some script which would improve the legato by simulating the slurs between the notes.

Hmm... maybe they release such a script in the future as an update... :p

- Mikko

paoling
11-21-2005, 05:24 AM
One thing I thought is that although Kontakt 2 can handle the legato stuff (as VSL does), the kompakt interface is the same of three years ago... The only way to integrate the interval sampling in kompakt would be through an external device such the Wordbuilder for the Choirs; anyway I can' t understand why when Kontakt 2 was released, NI didn't realize a sort of Kompakt 2 interface, with all the useful scripting things of the new sampler...

Paolo

AtmosMan
11-21-2005, 07:02 AM
paoling, I'm pretty sure it is in the works. From what I understand, GPO Advanced will be based on it. Not sure on a time frame though. EWQL users will have to use Kontakt 2 for now.

shnurgle
11-21-2005, 08:10 AM
Bottom line though, no matter how sophisticated an algorithm, you're never going to get closer to the real thing than interval sampling. Audio recordings of the real thing are as close as you can get.

It's the difference between playing a recording of a guitar player bending the string himself, and loading a guitar patch on a keyboard and using pitch wheel to create the same effect.

Night and day my brothers, night and day.

Doug Rogers
11-21-2005, 08:40 AM
QLegato patches were used extensively in the demos we posted, which most listeners raved about (look through the top thread). It works very well, and complements the other improvements and additions to the library nicely.

When we were planning this upgrade we experimented with various methods of emulating legato (sonic morphing, physical modelling, additive synthesis). All currently (although we expect this to change in the not too distant future) involve significant audio compromises which we weren't prepared to make. We have VSL, and it's system has audio problems (the infamous sucking sound), plus it's a very time consuming system to use. Given that millions of possible intervals would have to be recorded to provide 'true legato' at every tempo, which no one (including VSL) has done as it involves many years of work, and still might not sound right as an enormous database of samples would have to be matched 'on the fly' via MIDI, we found our solution to be a good compromise involving no audio degradation, plus it's easy to use.

Also, legato is just one piece of the puzzle. It's a combination of tools that usually provides the best results, and that's why you have to live with the library for while before making rush judgments. Sean Beeson's solo violin demo "pillars of silk" is a good example of combining the tools in XP. This was achieved with a combination of stac patches with the repetition patches and QLegato.

Of course, there are some purists here that think sample libraries should be indistinguishable from real orchestras. That's not going happen anytime soon as orchestral performances involve real time human emotion. However, we think we are making good progress compared to past efforts.

We believe strongly PRO XP is the best overall choice for professional composers available today and we're very proud of the end result, and reviewers unanimously agreed that EWQLSO is sonically superior to other collections (thanks to Prof. Keith O. Johnson). It's also by far the easiest to use, which was a design goal of ours. We know you will appreciate the work that went into XP after you've used it for a while, after all, you have only had it a couple of days.

- Doug

shnurgle
11-21-2005, 09:07 AM
XP rocks. It sounds terrific (except for the buggy celesta patch) and is indeed a breeze to use. If you don't like qlegato, don't use it. As Doug says, it's just one slice of the ploozle my brothers. There are many other articulations in the library that can be used successfully for legato.

Anyway, what's the deal with Keith Johnson? Why is it a requirment to say "Prof. Keith O. Johnson" every time you refer to him? And what's up with the "Prof." part? Is he really a professor, and if so, is it necessary to make reference to that fact every time you mention the dude's name? I mean, I know a few prefessors in universities who don't feel the need to carve it into their John Hancocks. Granted his recordings sound great, but seriously dude, drop the "Prof," know what I'm saying? The middle initial is enough "ornamentation."

I've always firmly believed in the power of a succinct moniker.

Yours,
His Divine Grace, the Baron Beaufort von Shnurgle, III

dcoscina
11-21-2005, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the info regarding the decision to go the route you did Doug. Fascinating stuff actually. I think Qlegato does push EWQLSO into another realm of realism just from the examples I've heard online. I'm home on vacation today and have gotten the notice that my Gold XP is on the truck so now I'm anxiously awaiting its arrival. Seeing that it was shipped on Friday, Nov 18th, I'm hoping that disc 4 is already included in the shipment. It's great to read the nice comments about Gold XP from those who have started playing with it, but also a little maddening because it's whetting my appetite to receive mine!!!

YES - It just arrived! Bye for now!!!!

Doug Rogers
11-21-2005, 09:22 AM
XP rocks.

Thanks, we think it does too.

Anyway, what's the deal with Keith Johnson? Why is it a requirment to say "Prof. Keith O. Johnson" every time you refer to him?

Because that's how he's always credited on all recordings.

- Doug

LHall
11-21-2005, 11:19 AM
Just got the XP strings installed yesterday and I'm having a ball. Great work to all. Hope Nick recovers quickly.

I've had great succes in emulating fast legato string runs such as chromatic scales up by involving the glide programs from the original library or using the slur DXF programs.

Say you've got a 2 octave string run in Eb starting on Eb above middle C. Use the SusDXF Slur2 18 V patch. Play the run, adjust the notes so that they slightly overlap, and draw a velocity curve upward as the scale goes up. Make sure that the last 4 or 5 notes have a velocity high enough to trigger the slurred samples. Mix this in and it will really enhance the realism. Haven't had a chance to play with this in conjuction with Qlegato yet, but my hunch is that it will work really well.

Another thing I've done is use the short glide programs and play every other note of a chromatic run but overlap them a bit and mix it into the run. Very convincing.

Of course, these techniques are for fast runs.