Modern film music my despair

[Lee Ophelius]

Hello everyone
is it just me or is film music stuck in a rut where everyone writes in the same half hearted style. Style over substance seems all the rage. The music in some of the newer films i.e kingdom of heaven, king arthur, king kong etc just sounds dreadfully cheap to me and that the music in these films had about as much importance in the overall production as the catering staff:D
I recently went out and bought these CDs amongst others and upon listening felt seriously ripped off. Plenty of non descript oohs and aahhs from choirs, a bit of flute and some banging drums even the orchestrel parts sound tired. Everything soaked in reverb to the point where the detail of the instruments is lost and the whole thing just sounds like some new age CD entitled ethnic adventures you would find in a hippy shop somewhere.
Know i know that film music is there to serve the film first and foremost, but where did film music take such a dreary turn? Good god it almost sounds like chart music!.
Ear candy doesnt even come close to descibing it and it almost makes me feel sick when i hear it. I dont want to offend any fans of the composers involved but come on!

again i dont want to offend anyone i just wanted to get it off my chest.

[guy theaker]

Plenty of non descript oohs and aahhs from choirs, a bit of flute and some banging drums even the orchestrel parts sound tired. Everything soaked in reverb to the point where the detail of the instruments is lost and the whole thing just sounds like some new age CD entitled ethnic adventures you would find in a hippy shop somewhere.

I know what you mean - the Zimmer 'super-dooper-really-big-&-impressive' sound.

Now i know that film music is there to serve the film first and foremost, but where did film music take such a dreary turn?
Do you know, I think it might have something to do with that Zimmer chap, again. Oh! Oh dear, am I being Anti-Zimmetic?

[Nayi]

Nope, you're just getting old and can't keep up. :D

[Synesthesia]

Hi -

Check out Narnia. IMO its Gregson-Williams' best score, and the best score I have heard in a long time.

Its my listening of choice on the train into the studio at the moment. Really good work.

Cheers!

Paul:)

[Neilfactory]

Check out Narnia. IMO its Gregson-Williams' best score, and the best score I have heard in a long time.

Yes, i love it too!
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=2032

>Neil

[tgfoo]

Man, I love Harry Gregson-Williams. Narnia was a terrific score. I also really like his Kingdom of Heaven score too. I was actually rather sad when he wasn't nominated for an Oscar.

And what's up with all of the Hans Zimmer hate?

[guy theaker]

What do ya mean, 'all the Hans Zimmer hate'? It's just me - and I'm just teasing! :D

[chocothrax]

Hi -

Check out Narnia. IMO its Gregson-Williams' best score, and the best score I have heard in a long time.

Its my listening of choice on the train into the studio at the moment. Really good work.

Cheers!

Paul:)

Nahhhh Sinbad is his greatest!@

[Lee Ophelius]

maybe i should check out some more of HGW but i just dont like that really cheesy kind of score, i like things a bit grittier.

see ya

[drew]

John Ottman and Carter Burwell are two of the more 'interesting' composers I've heard.

[tgfoo]

What do ya mean, 'all the Hans Zimmer hate'? It's just me - and I'm just teasing! :D

Well, not necessarily in this thread, but there have been many other threads in the past on this and other forums. I just got the impression from those that many people didn't like him (or his style and it's over usage to be more accurate).

[White Noise]

I was visiting Wavecrest with Harry in January. :p He's very cool. I really liked his work on Narnia, but for me, I'd say his best work was on Spygame. Shrek's also a very good score. If you guys like that type of thing, check out Jeff Rona's Earthsea score. He's also very nice. Wavecrest is amazing though. 3 stories of the most tasty equipment I've ever seen!!!

[pappagheno]

I was visiting Wavecrest with Harry in January. :p He's very cool. I really liked his work on Narnia, but for me, I'd say his best work was on Spygame. Shrek's also a very good score. If you guys like that type of thing, check out Jeff Rona's Earthsea score. He's also very nice. Wavecrest is amazing though. 3 stories of the most tasty equipment I've ever seen!!!


I agree with you guys, but the music fora film should be part of the film as well.
For me Narnia is been the best of the eyars. .but was qutie surprised to see that the author was teh same of Shrek and other films ..where the music for me was really weak..

the best part of Narnia is the first part of the film, the themes are great but get lost on the second part, the battle has very interesting movements (violins) but too easy and dont pump up enought the images.
The Sacrifice scene is fine ..but the music is to oeasy and the first notes remember the gladiator.. sigh..

said that I think I listened teh cd around 100 times.. love it ;)

but in these days still difficult to hear something like Vertigo (Hermann) absolutely the best one..

[White Noise]

Not necessarily true. Have a listen to Sylvestri's 'What lies beneath'.

[PaulR]

Not necessarily true. Have a listen to Sylvestri's 'What lies beneath'.

While an entertaining film with two good actors having a lot of fun - What Lies Beneath is not one of Sylvestri's best scores. I would put it down to a temp track actually. The score is a very poor attempt at a Herrmannesque style - namely Psycho - especially near the end.

Sylvestri's best score for me is Predator - showing off his natural talent at rhythm.

[pappagheno]

Not necessarily true. Have a listen to Sylvestri's 'What lies beneath'.

actually ienjoied that film..but .. yes the music was fine ..but is qutie easy t oget on Pshyco style.. more difficult t ogo on that kind of orchestra arrangement you ca nhear on vertigo.. what is amazing for me is that the base structure look simple but the string arrangement is amazing..

was wondering what is the pipeline of hte modern holliwood films.. how much time a composer have to develope his own style int othe film.. how much freedom too ?

[V o n h ö g e n]

in these days still difficult to hear something like Vertigo (Hermann) absolutely the best one..

actually ienjoied that film..but .. yes the music was fine ..but is qutie easy t oget on Pshyco style.. more difficult t ogo on that kind of orchestra arrangement you ca nhear on vertigo.. what is amazing for me is that the base structure look simple but the string arrangement is amazing..

was wondering what is the pipeline of hte modern holliwood films.. how much time a composer have to develope his own style int othe film.. how much freedom too ?


Vertigo! Now that is a great movie with an equally great score! The music of Vertigo is probably Bernard Herrmann's best score, but I must say that I haven't listened to his Citizen Kane for quite some time. Without Herrmann's music, Vertigo would loose much of it's atmosphere and mystery. On the other hand, Herrmann's music would probably sound less intense and less effective without Hitchcock's movie.

It would be very interesting to know why this collaboration was such a huge succes. Maybe it was a result of the fact that for this movie, Bernard Herrmann got as much freedom as a composer could possibly wish. In fact, he had an unrestricted "carte blanche" for Vertigo, allowing him to work alone, following his own musical instincts only!

There is an interesting anecdote about Vertigo, which illustrates the special relationship between Hitchcock and Herrmann. Despite the fact that Hitchcock's sound-notes for Vertigo were extensive and meticulous, he seems to have trusted the composer's musical instincts so much, that he added the following remark to his notes: "all of this will naturally depend upon what music Mr. Herrmann puts over the sequence."

I wonder what would happen if talented composers of today got a chance to write a score under similar conditions. Who knows how many masterpieces would result from such experiment? Since producers usually don't like to gamble, I guess we may never know the answer.

Jerome

[White Noise]

Sylvestri's best score for me is Predator - showing off his natural talent at rhythm.

Not written to picture. Hermmann's score for Taxi Driver is very good.

[PaulR]

Not written to picture. Hermmann's score for Taxi Driver is very good.

Herrmann's Taxi Driver is a great score. One of the best scores to film ever written and of course seperating the score from any movie is probably a waste of time. Herrmann died the day after he finished conducting the final cues on that one. His next film was to be Carrie. This tells us a lot about the genre Herrmann was most comfortable with.

Taxi Driver is my non musician wife's favourite ever score - which is interesting only in that she hates the film. That also indicates how Herrmann's scores were very much part of the narrative as a whole. A very disturbing piece of writing all in all.

With Vertigo - the score HAS to be the narrative for large sections of the film. The opening titles and then the rooftop shootout are probably and arguably, the best scoring ever done to an opening of a film. We will never hear the likes of that again from anyone in the near future. It's an unbelievable piece of music linked to images.

The greatest score unseperated from the film ever written is of course Psycho, which has been copied to death and set new standards for this type of film.

I saw all of thse films at the cinema, virtually when they were released and I cannot remember hearing anything written in that way for film, since.

Goldsmith, Morricone, Barry and Williams are right up there - particularly Goldsmith and just recently I've been listening to Star Trek - The Enterprise by Goldsmith which is excellent.

[Lee Ophelius]

Thanks for recomending those two composers Drew, will check em out:) :)

[dcoscina]

Try Elliot Goldenthal's TITUS. It's stunning. I bought it years ago and didn't really get into it then. But I've had a long break from Goldenthal's music (for some strange reason) and just got this disc back from a friend of mine who borrowed it for um, 4 years I think. Anyhow, it's powerful, eclectic, and just plain well written.

I'm starting a new thread regarding this score as it really needs to be heard by all those who think Narnia (or whatever epic film score is out these days) is well written. Goldenthal eclipses any and everyone at Media Ventures....collectively. And yes, I'm not a huge ZImmer fan (although I like his pre-Media Ventures scores like Rain Man and Thelma & Louise)

[fongi]

Poor Lee Orphelius, all you guys are talking about who you like and nobody is addressing Lee Ophelius´s point sadly I must say this is often the case on this forum. :(
The fact is Lee Orpheius, the Joe Average thinks the music that you found "nothing special" absolutely wonderful! I decided about 20 years ago, and I´ve been doing music professionally for 40 years, that the average Joe in the street just does not know what is good, just check record sales!!! Don´t despair, what we hear as musicians is quite different to what "Joe" hears, so if you write something which is average and everybody buys it, you won´t be complaining and that´s a fact my friend I hope you can see where I´m coming from?.

[pappagheno]

Poor Lee Orphelius, all you guys are talking about who you like and nobody is addressing Lee Ophelius´s point sadly I must say this is often the case on this forum. :(
The fact is Lee Orpheius, the Joe Average thinks the music that you found "nothing special" absolutely wonderful! I decided about 20 years ago, and I´ve been doing music professionally for 40 years, that the average Joe in the street just does not know what is good, just check record sales!!! Don´t despair, what we hear as musicians is quite different to what "Joe" hears, so if you write something which is average and everybody buys it, you won´t be complaining and that´s a fact my friend I hope you can see where I´m coming from?.

well, yes we gone a little bit off topic.. but not too much ;)

the point was about the originality on music but we are talking about music for film..
sometimes the script is so poor that the music cannot go too far, I rarely saw good music on a bad film..so..

how can we change the cinema ? :)

weird enought you can find a good film with a bad music :(

[Bod]

In defense of the 'set' hollywood score-style, it does give some very good guidelines for newer composers to follow, and allows them to break free of 'convention' and build their own style over it; it also let's people judge their soundtrack using set guidelines rather than just judging their soundtracks on how it emotionally effects them along with the moving picture.

That's just my arguement in defense of the 'same sounding' stuff (nice alliteration there...), I also have my arguement against but this was in reply to one of those already. :)

Also, Harry Gregson-Williams is a great composer in my humble opinion, I'm glad many others here think the same. :)

[Lerue]

Give the Audience what they want!

I believe this simple statement broadly defines the prevailent attitude in modern cinema, and much like mathematical equations that attempt to describe reality, I believe that by starting with a broad yet simple statement, one can delve deeper into realizing why things are the way they are.

"Giving the Audience what they want" may be a very general statement, but I believe it is part of the very foundation which breeds success in a competetive environment which attempts to seperate the consumer from his cash. Sometimes this means producing 'product' which appeals to the lowest common denominator, in order to insure the highest potential capital with the least risk.

Common trends such as the Special Effects heavy Action Movie, The College Campus Comedy, Or the Fright by Numbers Horror Thriller are the paint by numbers bread and butter of the Film Industry. These movies, when produced by a competent crew, written by a competent writer, and directed competently, will usually appeal to the audience they are catering too. Simply put, if you get a good team together who knows their audience, and can create a movie that appeals to their target audience, more often than not, the studio will make money.

I believe that film scoring is another aspect of the same capital driven industry, and is not seperate from this entity, rather being another 'cog in the machine' to put it crudely. Now, when I look at the big picture, one thing I notice in particular are the various levels in the film industry. What it seems the original Poster is refering too is mainly focused on the top shelf level of Film, the A+ Hollywood Blockbusters, which represent the main foca point of most movie goers, and so have one of the highest payout potentials in the industry.

It makes perfect sense to me that in a competetive environment, where there are usually a limited amount of "Big Budget" films that come out each year in specific genres, and a vast majority of these films are backed by major Studio Conglomerates, that risk vs reward plays a major role in which movies make it from script to screen.

Once these movies have been cleared for production and The Producers, Director, and others with the authority to make decisions start bouncing ideas around as to who is going to star in the movie, they also need to decide who is appropriate for Creating the score for their picture.

This is where the A list of composers come in to play. they may be in the A list for a variety of reasons, from emotional identity of their scores to epic Orchestral compositional abilities, but one thing the A list has in Common, is that most of them have been working in the industry for quite some time, and have the agents, the contacts, and the pull to help roll the dice in their favour.

The fact that a relatively few composers have made it on to this A list, and that they are also responsible for a good majority of the Blockbuster movie Scores, should help one to understand why it seems that hollywood blockbusters have a particular sound.

To go further down the list of composer/producer film production studios, into the minor leagues if you will, should also shed some light into how movie soundtracks become homogenous in their sound.

The small studios want some of that blockbuster money too.

And how do they get it? Well, the surest way to success may be to emulate the larger studios, and attempt to create BIG films on smaller budgets. What this means for the B list composer may be that a director wants him to "Sound like such and such A list Composer..." in order to have the same type of A list feel to his film. This has the end result of creating more and more film music that has a similar feel to the Blockbuster Hits which make Zillions of Dollars each year.

To the guy footing the Bill, safer is usually better.

So, in closing, I suppose the best way to sum up my thoughts on modern Cinema Scoring is that a majority of Film executives most likely follow the Maxim of...

Give the Audience what they want.

Le' rue Delashay

[chocothrax]

I rarely saw good music on a bad film..so..

I disagree I see it all the time. Take Cutthroat Island. A bad movie and one of the biggest box office flops ever but the score is one of the highlights of film scoring in the 90's.

[nickysnd]

Know i know that film music is there to serve the film first and foremost, but where did film music take such a dreary turn? Good god it almost sounds like chart music!.


I believe that film music is there to serve the Director's and/or the Producer's vision and taste, rather than the film. After all, it is their film, not the composer's. And there is no more Hitchcock around to rely on a Herrmann. As someone pointed out here, composers don't have freedom (which is normal), and the impossible deadlines are influencing the musical decisions dramatically. So I would never "condemn" a composer for a score that I don't like. I am amazed and happy seeing miracles happening, year after year, against all odds... And they shine, if one looks closer and thinks cues rather than scores.

I don't feel that "film music did take a dreary turn". Just throw out the gangue and forget about it. More often than not, it belongs to The Deaf Producer. Then cherish the gems, which belong to The Mighty Composer.

Best,

Nicky

[Shire Bagginz]

Nahhhh Sinbad is his greatest!@

Yes! Sinbad is amazing. I would never think that it was composed for an animated feature. I am so glad I was dragged into watching that movie (which wasn't all that bad for an animated feature) because I think it has some of the best action adventure music written for film. Gregson-Williams is becoming one the best film composers, imo, with such scores as Kingdom of Heaven, Sinbad, and my favorite of his, (and of last year, just over King Kong) Narnia. I personally think Narnia was easily the best fantasy adventure score written since Lord of the Rings (which is my favorite film music ever written).

And on that note...I say this to the original poster of this thread. Take a listen to Howard Shore's masterpiece, Lord of the Rings, and maybe your faith in modern film music will lift a bit.

[chocothrax]

And on that note...I say this to the original poster of this thread. Take a listen to Howard Shore's masterpiece, Lord of the Rings, and maybe your faith in modern film music will lift a bit.

Hmm LOTR. Never really cared much for the music but there is one really good cue called Forth Eorlingas or I think that's what it's called.

[PaulR]

Hmm LOTR. Never really cared much for the music but there is one really good cue called Forth Eorlingas or I think that's what it's called.

Really?That beats me. 9 hours of film and I can't even remember one cue.

[PaulR]

And there is no more Hitchcock around to rely on a Herrmann. Nicky

And no more Herrmann to rely on Hitchcock either. Although lots of pretenders over the years.

[Lee Ophelius]

I have read some of the replies, and have agreed with some of the points. However i have gone back and listened to scores by JNH and HGW and still think they are really light weight compositions. I also watched kingdom of heaven again to check the music to the pictures, which i also find dull in places and and not quite doing the pictures justice.
God i dont want to sound arrogant, i really dont. Just adding fuel to the fire i suppose and i think this is a good debate, and my god you cant beat a mass debate:D Seriously though doesnt it sound like ear candy to you

[drew]

I have read some of the replies, and have agreed with some of the points. However i have gone back and listened to scores by JNH and HGW and still think they are really light weight compositions. I also watched kingdom of heaven again to check the music to the pictures, which i also find dull in places and and not quite doing the pictures justice.
God i dont want to sound arrogant, i really dont. Just adding fuel to the fire i suppose and i think this is a good debate, and my god you cant beat a mass debate:D Seriously though doesnt it sound like ear candy to you

Perhaps it isn't obvious to everyone, but film composers rarely have a free reign when it comes to the music they write. The director/producers usually have a lot of control of the music. Often a composer is instructed to just make it sound like a temp track or face near impossible deadlines with ever decreasing budgets. Not the best environment for creating great music.

So, without knowing the details of how or why a score was written a certain way, I'd be careful not to blame the composer so readily. He may be doing what he was hired to do, not what he wanted to do.

[WoodIsGood]

Often a composer is instructed to just make it sound like a temp track or face near impossible deadlines with ever decreasing budgets. Not the best environment for creating great music.

So, without knowing the details of how or why a score was written a certain way, I'd be careful not to blame the composer so readily. He may be doing what he was hired to do, not what he wanted to do.

That should be fairly obvious around these boards. I am surprised how easily some forget that film music is a different beast from stand-alone music where there are no stylistic constraints and it is self-sufficient. I'm sure each director/producer influences the music to different degrees and that's why you probably have some film music which is "great" and some which is not so much. But isn't that where the opinion thing comes in?

[Nick Phoenix]

Hi -

Check out Narnia. IMO its Gregson-Williams' best score, and the best score I have heard in a long time.

Its my listening of choice on the train into the studio at the moment. Really good work.

Cheers!

Paul:)


I love Harry Gregson-Williams stuff and he's a really nice guy. However, I didn't like Narnia's score. Some parts were good, but I blamed it on the movie itself and not the composer.

[Edx]

I dont know what all the fuss was over Narnia, it was like a poor mans LOTR and cheezy. I think its the Christian/childrens book theme that people got all gushy over. Now it wasnt that bad, but it wasnt that good either.

[Edx]

Yes! Sinbad is amazing. I would never think that it was composed for an animated feature. I am so glad I was dragged into watching that movie (which wasn't all that bad for an animated feature) .

Uh, whats bad about animated feature films? Sinbad wasnt a great animated film by a long shot.

[chocothrax]

Well the movie sucked. I'm not sure why they needed the kids in the story, they didn't exactly help save Narnia from what I remember.

[Edx]

Well the movie sucked. I'm not sure why they needed the kids in the story, they didn't exactly help save Narnia from what I remember.

Hehe.

[Lee Ophelius]

quote:
That should be fairly obvious around these boards. I am surprised how easily some forget that film music is a different beast from stand-alone music where there are no stylistic constraints and it is self-sufficient. I'm sure each director/producer influences the music to different degrees and that's why you probably have some film music which is "great" and some which is not so much. But isn't that where the opinion thing comes in?

I am suprised that some people are trying to convince me that my opinion is some how wrong. At the end of the day it is just that, an opinion. To me when i watch a film and i feel that the music fails the film, then regardless of how good or bad the film is or how much input the producer has, the composer is always the first in the firing line which is unfair however when i see another film, with the same composer and i have the same opinions
of the music, then thats when it becomes obvious that this composer just isnt exciting me right now. And just because a composer is in high regard does not mean that those who dislike his work have "forgotten" that film music is different to normal music or do not know how film music works.:cool: