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midislut
05-12-2005, 10:16 AM
hi all

i own gold...but the garriton per orch is on a group buy !!

should i get it or is gold enough...i dont want to dublicate

...anyone here that's using both perhaps ?

thanks

ms

Composer
05-12-2005, 10:48 AM
Why would you? The demos are awful. And I mean that with all sincerity and no spite whatsoever - I'm not a sheep of either "sampling camp". GPO sounds like above average general midi to me. Unless you like to compose in Finale (which is optomized for GPO) I would say dont waste your money. There are better samples you could buy for 130 or just put the money away in a piggy bank toward Gold Pro. :)

And it is my understanding that Gold has everything GPO has, except it sounds infinitely better. Maybe you're missing a harpsichord or something - but the professional upgrade will take that care of that. Save your money!

ToddK
05-12-2005, 11:24 AM
Yeah, he's right. Gold is just better.

Gary is a great guy, nothing to do with him. But Gold is the better sound.


TK

loogoo
05-12-2005, 11:37 AM
As a user of both, yes - Gold is a "better" sound. But better is a very subjective thing. Gold is also a bigger sound, and unless you are writing nothing but Hollywood blockbusters and Sword and Dragons kind of stuff, you can't really get a smaller, more intimate sound with Gold. With GPO you can assemble your instruments out of solo players into any grouping or ensemble size you want - something I find unique and extremely versatile.

As to the comments about the Garritan demos - just bear in mind that these are almost 100% user contributions from people with varying skills and experience, not necessarily the slick, pro demos we have become used to hearing. Trust me, in the right hands, GPO can more than hold its own. Sure, it won't sound like Gold, but sometimes you just don't want it to.

Composer
05-12-2005, 11:49 AM
If he wants a more intimate sound, I would advise him to put the money away toward Opus 1, or SI strings, or maybe even put it away toward the updated Miroslav Vitous library. The MV demos sound better to me than the GPO demos - but maybe some people would disagree. Also, for only $150 more he could get the MOTU Symphonic Instrument (and the Symphonic Instrument demos sound better than GPO too, I think :p ). But if he already has Gold, I don't think he needs any more of the "smaller" libraries. He should save up for Gold Pro, Platinum, VSL, or something by Sonic Implants. If he's a student he can get the mini version of the SI strings for only $339.

GPO is at the very bottom of the list, I think. If you already have something above it, why go back? Continue expanding upward!

dcoscina
05-12-2005, 03:55 PM
If he wants a more intimate sound, I would advise him to put the money away toward Opus 1, or SI strings, or maybe even put it away toward the updated Miroslav Vitous library. The MV demos sound better to me than the GPO demos - but maybe some people would disagree. Also, for only $150 more he could get the MOTU Symphonic Instrument (and the Symphonic Instrument demos sound better than GPO too, I think :p ). But if he already has Gold, I don't think he needs any more of the "smaller" libraries. He should save up for Gold Pro, Platinum, VSL, or something by Sonic Implants. If he's a student he can get the mini version of the SI strings for only $339.

GPO is at the very bottom of the list, I think. If you already have something above it, why go back? Continue expanding upward!

I agree . Go for VSL Opus 1 if you want that intimate sound or better yet, wait for the EWQLSO Pro series which has much more solo string samples and such.

SergeD
05-12-2005, 04:25 PM
Perhaps having Kontakt 2 would be a good move. you would get a part of the VSL library and a nice sampler for Gold.

SergeD

neoTypic
05-12-2005, 09:45 PM
I think it's a good thing to have as it's incredibly easy to use and get an idea of orchestral coloring if you notate as you compose.

EWQLSO doesn't work with Finale and I've gotten about zero help in getting it to work I'm afraid. GPO works flawlessly with it and that was before they added new features for it.

lgrohn
05-12-2005, 10:07 PM
As to the comments about the Garritan demos - just bear in mind that these are almost 100% user contributions from people with varying skills and experience, not necessarily the slick, pro demos we have become used to hearing. Trust me, in the right hands, GPO can more than hold its own. Sure, it won't sound like Gold, but sometimes you just don't want it to.OK. Could you show me just ONE good GPO demo? LG

Journeyman
05-12-2005, 10:46 PM
I agree with NeoTypic. I'm getting GPO in the group buy for one reason only; it's integration w/ Finale. Once the score is done, THEN I'll do a more elaborate mock up in Gold.

neoTypic
05-13-2005, 04:22 AM
OK. Could you show me just ONE good GPO demo? LG

lgrohn, you have always been a clear dissenting voice against GPO, I highly doubt any such thing will impress you.

dcoscina
05-13-2005, 06:39 AM
I use Gold with Overture 3.1 and V-Stack. It works fine. Better than fine actually. Oh, I'm also using Maple Midi Tools or whatever to connect the two. But when Overture 4 comes out, Vstack and Maple Midi will no longer be needed as it will directly import VSTi's.

KevinKauai
05-13-2005, 07:11 AM
I originally got GOS/Lite and then added GPO. I picked up EWQLSO/Gold on the Group Buy and love it! However, the pianos, harps, marimba and celesta are instruments which I don't believe are in Gold (correct me if I'm wrong).

After the Gold strings, I hardly ever use GPO strings. The real controversy about GPO vs. Gold (as I understand it) is that Gary prefers (in all cases) to use effects/sweetening AFTER, rather than built in to the samples (with the C-F-S tactic of EWQLSO). In truth, GPO's presence may also have a beneficial effect of bringing the prices of packages down.

At the $398 group buy price, EWQLSO/Gold was a bargain; however, I'm not sure that I would ever have plunked down $995 for it, in all candor. While I certainly realize that sample purveyors have a generally huge up-front investment in recording and developing sample packages, surely we are reaching the point where existing "inventory" is being recycled (and perhaps even traded/licensed around -- witness GG's announcement that GPO Advanced will contain the SAM horns).

Anyway, that's my 50th of a dollar ... hope I didn't offend anyone with my personal analysis/opinion!

KevinKauai

Doug Rogers
05-13-2005, 07:28 AM
I agree with NeoTypic. I'm getting GPO in the group buy for one reason only; it's integration w/ Finale. Once the score is done, THEN I'll do a more elaborate mock up in Gold.

We are currently working closely with the developers of Overture 4 which is being optimized for Gold (which means it will work also for Silver and Platinum). I'm also told the other popular notation programs will have a plug-in architecture soon.

- Doug

Journeyman
05-13-2005, 07:30 AM
Doug,

Will these work on an OSX Mac?

RickD
05-13-2005, 07:44 AM
We are currently working closely with the developers of Overture 4 which is being optimized for Gold (which means it will work also for Silver and Platinum). I'm also told the other popular notation programs will have a plug-in architecture soon.

- Doug

That's the best news I've heard in a long time!

Rick

Doug Rogers
05-13-2005, 08:08 AM
Doug,

Will these work on an OSX Mac?

Yes it will be OS X also. They are modifying O4 to work with our samples.

- Doug

neoTypic
05-13-2005, 08:23 AM
We are currently working closely with the developers of Overture 4 which is being optimized for Gold (which means it will work also for Silver and Platinum). I'm also told the other popular notation programs will have a plug-in architecture soon.

- Doug

That's great news.

Not so great as in I'll have to learn another piece of notation software and plunk down more money for one, but great that one of these days I might actually be able to set up a decent workflow and be able to actually work on MUSIC instead of trying to get things to work. :p

Very happy to hear it overall though.

Any idea of a release date for that? (I laugh as I type that ;) hee)

ELP71
05-13-2005, 08:49 AM
I agree with the others that say GPO is great for Finale implementation, but considering you have Gold, GPO will be quite a sonic disappoinment. It would be a nice scratchpad library, though.

Doug Rogers
05-13-2005, 08:49 AM
Any idea of a release date for that? (I laugh as I type that ;) hee)

I'll get out the crystal ball!!

GenieSoft are sending us a beta soon, after that test, everyone will have a better idea.

- Doug

neoTypic
05-13-2005, 09:38 AM
I'll get out the crystal ball!!

GenieSoft are sending us a beta soon, after that test, everyone will have a better idea.

- Doug


Heheh, can I borrow that thing after you're done? (insert Groucho Marx smilie :D)

Cool, thanks for keeping us posted. ;)

dcoscina
05-13-2005, 10:06 AM
Overture for me is the best notation program going. Quick, efficient and easy to navigate through. I hated using Finale for 4 years after I realised Encore was just too behind the times. I'm glad that Overture does everything I need it to do and that's great news about it working well with Gold!

Andrew
05-13-2005, 11:56 AM
I would go for it. GPO may not sound fantastic, but if you load it on a laptop with a gig of ram and Overture SE, you can work with a full orchestra just about anywhere.

dcoscina
05-13-2005, 04:30 PM
I would go for it. GPO may not sound fantastic, but if you load it on a laptop with a gig of ram and Overture SE, you can work with a full orchestra just about anywhere.

Of course, I use EWQLSO Silver for the same purpose! And the brass sound better too. :)

Andrew
05-13-2005, 06:15 PM
If that's the case, then he would probably find silver to be a better choice than GPO. It would keep things simple by retaining continuity with the gold samples, which would be important to me, if I were choosing between the two. I wouldn't be too worried about which sounds better, though. If you have two piles of crap, one might smell better than the other, but they both still smell like crap.

dcoscina
05-13-2005, 06:46 PM
. If you have two piles of crap, one might smell better than the other, but they both still smell like crap.

what the???? :confused:

Andrew
05-13-2005, 07:11 PM
LMAO...now you know what I really think ...I could say they "sound" like crap, but how does crap sound?

Considering the balancing effect of the universe, I would bet that if we could hear crap, it would sound like angels singing Ave Maria. Conversely, GPO and Silver would probably smell like artifical apple flavoring...hmmm, even smells artificial.

KevinKauai
05-13-2005, 07:33 PM
The advantage that GPO has (excluding the current Group Buy which omits too sub-licensed components) is the Cubase VST thing -- which eleminates the need for a sequencer for a first-time buyer. (Q: When is GPO not GPO? A: When the 'group buy' is really a stripped-down product! In my humble opinion, doing a 'bait-and-switch' Group Buy on an established product with established features and components and dropping out some of the components is a different product, but who am I to argue with GG's marketing? This would be tantamount to SoundsOnline doing a Group Buy on Gold or Silver without the builtin Kompakt player.)

Anyway, that's my 50th of a dollar [again] ... KevinKauai :p

P.S. If I were a first-time buyer, I would WITHOUT DOUBT go for Silver, because the upgrade path is clear. So far, all we've heard about "GPO Advanced" is that it's "advanced", going to have SAM horn samples and the non-published release date keeps getting further and further away.

Journeyman
05-13-2005, 08:08 PM
I could say they "sound" like crap, but how does crap sound?
I'm waiting for the pre-order pricing on the "Crap-Pro Upgrade". Talk about articulations... :eek:

Andrew
05-13-2005, 08:30 PM
Kevin,
Good point about the upgrade path. Definately one of EWQLSO's strong points. That deal GPO has with VSL doesn't really go very far and it isn't very straight cut.

That sucks that they are stripping some of the components of GPO. One of the best things about GPO is Overture SE and the way they both integrate. The whole portable thing with a laptop and 1 gig of ram doesn't really work for me without.

Bummer.

Journeyman
05-13-2005, 08:47 PM
Look, I'm no big proponent of GPO, and sonically I realize that it can't hold a candle to EWQLSO. But the "stripped" version of GPO is only for the US group buy. Anyone can buy the fully loaded version anytime they want. And anyone in the UK can get a similar price to the group buy on the fully loaded version from their distributor, Time and Space.

And has it occurred to anyone that the GPO group buy can be a really good thing in the long run for East West? The low entry-level price point allows beginners to get their feet wet with GPO, and then they'll likely move on to better libraries like EWQLSO.

Doug Rogers
05-14-2005, 10:50 AM
And has it occurred to anyone that the GPO group buy can be a really good thing in the long run for East West? The low entry-level price point allows beginners to get their feet wet with GPO, and then they'll likely move on to better libraries like EWQLSO.

I think a better entry level product would be EWQLSO Silver. Get familiar with Silver and upgrade when you can afford it.

- Doug

Rodney Stark
05-14-2005, 10:54 AM
Actually, although most of Gold sounds infinitely better, I prefer GPO's solo instruments.

Journeyman
05-14-2005, 11:28 AM
Doug,

While I don't disagree, there is quite a price difference between the current price of Silver and the $140 group buy price of GPO. At that price, GPO is going to get a lot of beginners who aren't willing to spend enough to get Silver.

dcoscina
05-14-2005, 11:35 AM
I think a better entry level product would be EWQLSO Silver. Get familiar with Silver and upgrade when you can afford it.

- Doug

I agree. That's what I did last summer. It was between GPO and SIlver. What it came down to was the demos at SoundsOnline. I heard some remarkable demos using Silver whereas I hadn't heard any GPO demos that didn't remind me of my ancient Proteus 2. The brass are just plain crappy. No other way to put it. They suck. I'm a brass player so I know what real brass sounds like and GPO only seems to have samples that are good at ppp dynamic level. No good fortissimo sounds. I don't want to be arrogant but this really isn't up for debate. Ask other brass players. I think they would agree.

As for the solo instruments, I think there are plenty of good sounding solo instruments in Silver. I used the oboe trills and solo flutes for a ballet I was working on last year and they sounded great.

I'd love to hear a great GPO demo but thus far I haven't. I even re-visited the website last night and listened to the winners of that contest. On a musical level, one of the runner-up pieces, Craig Reeves' Symphony #1 in G minor was much stronger (and infinitely better orchestrated) than the winning piece which sounded like second rate film scoring- an amalgam of James Horner licks, John Williams licks, and so on. And really basic string writing. No counter melodies or inner lines to fill out the texture. The guy's counterpoint is suspect to say the least. Reeves piece on GPO was alright and I must say his chord voicings and arranging was pretty solid even using that library. In performance, it kicked ass. Yes, it has stylistic ties to Copeland and Barber but it's a solid piece. This guy is talented.

As for GPO, well, I honestly think that the Apple Jam Pack Symphony Orchestra plug-in isn't too far off in quality from the GPO sounds. Whereas I find Silver quite realistic and flexible. I still use it on my laptop and it sounds fine. If someone can't get a realistic sound out of it, might I suggest taking some orchestration lessons (or at least consult Mr. Adler or Mr. Kennen's books for reference).

dcoscina
05-14-2005, 11:43 AM
Doug,

While I don't disagree, there is quite a price difference between the current price of Silver and the $140 group buy price of GPO. At that price, GPO is going to get a lot of beginners who aren't willing to spend enough to get Silver.

Yeah, but paying $140 for substandard sounds still doesn't make them sound any better.

Sorry, I know I'm on an anti-GPO roll right now but

1/ I will gladly say wonderful things about Gary's products when they are good- like the upcoming Big Band. That sounds good! (I also used to play trombone in jazz orchs and he nailed the sound perfectly based on the demo)

2/ This is an East West forum after all. I think it's damned nice of Doug not to lock this thread but really, why discuss another developer's Group Buy on this site? Most people either own Silver or Gold and both are far superior to GPO sounds. It's like the guy who started a thread on VSL forum for Platinum Group Buy (although I can at least somewhat see the rationale behind that. A $1500 savings is kinda a big thing.)

chocothrax
05-14-2005, 01:23 PM
If I were Herb at VSL I wouldn't exactly be too happy about the competition getting free advertising on my site... :) But that's just me.

Composer
05-14-2005, 03:15 PM
I think East West and VSL take a classier, higher road sort of approach to discussing other sample libraries on their forums. Though as you can see from their posts (Doug and Nicks, and the VSL guys) they never call their products anything but the absolute best choice. I think it is part of an "image" for them too; down to earth, open to all discussion, not like "typical" developers. Remember when people told Doug that they think the pro discounts should be lengthened? Most developers would say something like "we currently have to plans to blah blah blah" but Doug said, "we'll discuss this tomorrow and let you guys know what we think."

It gives one the sense of being in a community.

Andrew
05-14-2005, 03:48 PM
I'm a brass player so I know what real brass sounds like...I don't want to be arrogant but this really isn't up for debate. Ask other brass players. I think they would agree.

Do you suppose that brass players are the only people who have ever heard the real thing? Your status as a player makes you intimately knowledgable about how to produce brass tones, but you are no more qualified to judge the realism, or quality of tone than anyone else who has ever listened to a horn. If the opposite were true, only brass players would make good brass orchestrators and arrangers. This, clearly, is not the case and, as such, gives your assertion to the quality of GPO no more weight than being, simply, an opinion.

As any opinion, of course, yours IS up for debate, however pointless such debate would be, since neither side of the debate could support itself with facts, just more opinions. And, I'm sure you could find plenty of people to agree with you, but many people sharing the same opinion only appears to give it more weight. In society opinions are cumulative, perhaps, even multiplicative, but society is based more on intimidation than reality. Society would have you believe an opinion becomes fact with enough weight behind it. In reality, an opinion, no matter how crushing, is still just an opinion.

In all honesty, I appreciate your arrogance. I only wish you would not try to dismiss it with the statement that, you do not wish to be so. That's so arrogant!

Anyway, I agree with you about the brass in the Silver and GPO demos. I dissagree that Silver is better for beginners, though. GPO is better choice for the beginner for one reason; support and education. The level of support and the educational community that has evolved around GPO is unparralleled by any other developer. Garritan is not only providing his customers with a sample library, but also the support and education to utilize that library effectively. If you need proof, just go check out the GPO section of NSS. They have a music academy! Not to mention the volume of tutorials on using the product.

EWQLSO Silver has GPO on sound and upgrade path, but what does any of that matter if the customer lacks the education to make the most of the library? I suppose you could just leave all that to Garritan, since it's all available to EW users anyway, but you will inspire more customer loyalty and word of mouth sales if you make the effort to provide it for yourself. Which is what is happening for GPO.

I suggest that EW foster the same educational environment around EWQLSO Silver.

Service; It does a bottom-line good.

or

Got Service?

I wonder what milk will think of next.

KevinKauai
05-14-2005, 04:04 PM
I suggest that EW foster the same educational environment around EWQLSO Silver. Excellent point, Andrew! While I don't participate in it (as a tutor, due to lack of time to contirbute) I applaud the "GPO Academy" effort (which actually sprang from Forum Users who petitioned Gary to provide a sub-area within the Garritan forum).

There's no preventing SO/EW from taking the same approach with Silver. Does Silver have a scoring or low-end Sequencer, though? If not, there maybe should be a more bundled edition (since it would appear that OEM licenses for these are relatively inexpensive). I guess it's a matter of packaging.

another 50th of a dollar! :) KevinKauai

dcoscina
05-14-2005, 05:51 PM
Andrew, you make good points. But I also studied orchestration in college. And I had to arrange for brass ensembles (boy did I learn a hard lesson about writing too high for French Horns- the players wanted to kill me after a reading through of one of my pieces! :o )

As for GPO, like I said, I wish every orchestral library kicked total butt. Believe me. I wish GPO was the be-all end all. It would have saved my tons of dollars. But it's really wanting in some major areas of the orchestra.

But I know that wasn't your sticking poiny-it was support and which product would be better suited to a beginner. Personally speaking, I think a good composition teacher and some courses in college with a real student group to play one's compositions is the best way to learn how to orchestrate and compose for orchestra. Obviously most people don't have the time/money/resources to accomplish this. I just worry that GPO or any library for the matter isn't a good way to learn how to compose for orchestras. Bad habits can begin at this stage. Like writing a part for solo flute that has 4 whole notes tied together at a largetto tempo. The flute player would fall over from lack of breath. Or writing closed chords for low brass or strings, where there are too many overtones to hear the individual notes in the chord. Or having a single harp play a chromatic passage when their strings are diatonically tuned.

Yes, Gary's site has some good resources for beginners. And I think his product is geared to them. Perhaps East West is more directed at semi-pros and pros. people who already know how to use the orchestra. But normally, GPO doesn't run much cheaper than Silver. And I know it would be hard for me to have the music in my head realized on the sounds from GPO. But again, I'm coming from a different perspective and perhaps, my bias is clouding my objective judgement.

I appreciate the discussion though!

Composer
05-14-2005, 06:50 PM
I will now do that type of reply where you write a response to each sentence.


The nonsense in this thread has been humorous, but at this point it becomes ludicrous and insulting.

Sure... you actually believe the discussions were about creating goodwill in the community and NOT about what road would lead to the most income.... Sure, ya do.


What the hell are you talking about?? :confused: Yes, I do believe that the point of VSL leaving up the platinum group buy thread, and Doug allowing this thread to go on is for creating goodwill in the community and not about leading to the most income. But who says they can't be one and the same? Doug creates goodwill by showing the users of this board that there is no censorship, but also gets to use the thread to "lead to more income" by the fact that most people will say Silver is superior to GPO because Silver doesn't like a sampled Casio keyboard.


And if you think the EW boys are all about creating community and inclusiveness, you haven't read some of the politically oriented posts made by the team.

The Hollywood Left is called the Hollywood Left for a reason.

I'm not a liberal. I'm actually a deeply conservative Christian who loathes secular liberalism and regards it as the cancer of all morality, but what does that have to do with EW and VSL not deleting threads about competing products?

In this town we have some of the most talented people in the world, some of the most successful people in the world, and some of the biggest jerks in the world.

And not infrequently they are one in the same.

And, again, what does this have to do with anything I wrote?? :confused: You're an odd fellow.

dcoscina
05-14-2005, 07:06 PM
JackB, I agree with Composer- your post is kind of strange. It doesn't have much to do with what we're discussing here. In fact, it smacks of communist paranoia. I don't recall any posts made by the East West team that would suggest such a thing, and even if they did, this is their forum with which they can say anything they bloody well like.

neoTypic
05-15-2005, 07:40 AM
Heheh, don't expect me to take offense anytime soon to the political standings of the EWQL people. ;)

The middle doesn't bother me, the far right scares me. :eek:

But anyhow, back on topic.

The support is good, the instruments easy to use, and it's not that exspensive. Some of the solo stuff sounds better too. Yes, yes, blasphemy I know. ;)

gpax
05-15-2005, 12:26 PM
My experience has been more of an evolution. I started with GPO when it first came out. Personally, I think the winds are the sonic strength of GPO, though I've had to program in a fair amount of expression to get the most natural performance. And yet at the time (and for the money), I was thrilled to have that palette to start from.

Then I purchased Gold as part of the group buy last year, and that was a major step for me in terms of the range of instrumental expression, albeit a different sound from what I had worked "around." It's changed the way I work - for the better. I still like a smaller chamber sound for some projects, and despite some of GPO's limitations, it is "decent" in this respect (mostly for winds) - but there is a lot of tweaking, and the GPO strings are obviously not as diverse as Garritan's larger, dedicated library. As for that close mic sound I like, I can only imagine that EWQL Platinum is the dream tool for this (it killed me to have to pass on the recent group buy).

I'm sure EWQL sees a lot of users who start from either GPO or Silver and then move up. And yet all of this is a far cry from trying to orchestrate with $40 CDs, Halion Strings, and Reason Strings - not so long ago.

Now, back to the political debate.

pax -

nexus
05-16-2005, 08:24 PM
I agree with the others that say GPO is great for Finale implementation, but considering you have Gold, GPO will be quite a sonic disappoinment. It would be a nice scratchpad library, though.

..And thats the actual point in comparing these two libraries.

I entrenched myself in these debates too many times on the GPO forum and am now 'on the outs' with Gary.

So I'll pitch my two pennies into the fray...

When I got GPO after using Edirol HQO and my old MV and AO libs under Giga 2.5 I thought it would make a great companion to all that.

I used it for a couple weeks and then certain sound quality issues reared-up in my face but I intended to make it my core library because it's so easy to use....or so I thought!

I went round and round on the forum there about different reverbs and this impulse versus that impulse and eq changes and compression and....forget it!

Then I got Silver last year and I could REALLY hear the weakness of GPO. Gettin' in on the GB for Gold has clinched it for me: Orchestral instruments really need to be recorded in their enviroment and still sound better even without the release trails.

If it were not for the GB I would not ever be able to afford GOLD (I'm with you Kevin!).

Gold just simply sounds like a symphony orchestra and whether that orchestra is playing Elfman or Mahler doesn't matter.

After THAT experience, GPO sounds a little funky sometimes and you might be hugely dissapointed.

Having said that, I in NO way regret buying GPO as it is definitely not GM cheese.

For 'intimate' sounding small ensemble stuff it's great. You would need Platinum to achieve a similar sound, though I have done nicely in that regard with Silver and the right reverb.

Some of the woods are really nice. The brass, except for a couple of the horns and the tuba, suck mightely .

The trombones are so awful that my old EMU samples from fifteen years ago sound much better. GPO brass overall sounds 'synthy' and 'canned'. I'm glad I can finally say that on a forum where I won't get into trouble! :D

Poor brass is what will make a piece sound synthy.

In ALL fairness, GPO was never intended to compete with the likes of GOLD, I have that from Gary himself. It's a kind of sketchpad with the added bonus of some very nice sounding samples.

The Advanced version is being propped-up with SAM brass to be sure. It still will be much better than GPO is now even without SAM. You will also get some ambient versions of the instruments. The strings are improved too. What you most likely WON'T get is true dynamic layers. This is okay with woods and even with strings, but the brass suffer the most from the dynamic eq thing happening in GPO to simulate the brass crescendi. It actually works better with EWQLSO samples imported into GPO!

I would say enough but for the new MV which impressed me in the musikmesse demo. This was great for a guy just vamping orchestra on a keyboard and would be nice for quick things or ideas. It has a much less aggressive sound than EWQLSO which may or may not be a good thing? I would spend my money there if one already had GOLD Pro. MV is a MUCH better timbre-match for EWQLSO than GPO will ever be.

The reverb demo'd too in that video (CSR-1) sounds fabulous! That would make a big difference in the quality of the demo and I hope that it was not the thing making MV shine!
:rolleyes:

I have now made GOLD the core of my studio and can finally get down to composing without wondering if something better might come along to make me want to redo eveything again!! :D

Thats the real truth in the GPO vs EWQLSO debate.......

Sean R. Beeson
05-16-2005, 10:06 PM
GPO versus gold? The never ending battle. I have used both. I think that gold is an all around better librairy, not to mention the upgrades coming should push the envelope a little more. I have scored films and games with gold, and the quality is always above even my own expectations. You won't be disappointed if you would buy gold, if is surely worth the money.

Sean Beeson

banquo
05-17-2005, 08:14 AM
this is a pretty nice GPO demo, imho:

Windwaker theme from Zelda (http://www.samferrara.com/Ocean.mp3)

[by Sam Ferrara]

wayne_rowley
05-17-2005, 09:13 AM
Why are so many people comparing GPO to Gold. GPO costs 179 - Gold costs 649 - it damn well ought to sound better!! :D

Surely the comparison is between GPO and Silver... and the line is a little more hazy. Silver has great brass and percussion but the strings are a little synthy. I think GPO has better strings and woodwinds. I have Silver. The question I am trying to decide is whether to go for GPO for the current great price of 89 or Silver Pro for the discount price of 139. How well would the GPO sounds mix with the Silver ones..?

Wayne

Nick Phoenix
05-17-2005, 09:51 AM
And if you think the EW boys are all about creating community and inclusiveness, you haven't read some of the politically oriented posts made by the team.

The Hollywood Left is called the Hollywood Left for a reason.

I'm not a liberal. I'm actually a deeply conservative Christian who loathes secular liberalism and regards it as the cancer of all morality, but what does that have to do with EW and VSL not deleting threads about competing products?



My political beliefs have nothing to do with East West as a company. You won't see me discussing politics here.

Doug Rogers
05-17-2005, 10:32 AM
And if you think the EW boys are all about creating community and inclusiveness, you haven't read some of the politically oriented posts made by the team.

Jack, you need to get your facts straight, Nick has discussed his political views at that other forum in the "off topic" area in the past, no one from EW, including me, has (Nick does not work for EW). I personally never discuss politics or religion publically as they are both too divisive.

We decided to not have a OT area here because we want this forum to concentrate on discussing making music. There are plenty of other places where you can discuss politics and religion.

I can tell you this though, this topic would have been deleted at that other forum many pages ago.

- Doug

Composer
05-17-2005, 10:57 AM
no one from EW, including me, has (Nick does not work for EW)

I think most people think of QL and EW as the same company, thats why they dont mind asking you questions about RA.

My political beliefs have nothing to do with East West as a company. You won't see me discussing politics here.

In that case I will change my signature to Cheney/Ashcroft in 2008 and expect no ill words or mad faces from you. :p

Doug Rogers
05-17-2005, 11:05 AM
I think most people think of QL and EW as the same company, thats why they dont mind asking you questions about RA.



In that case I will change my signature to Cheney/Ashcroft in 2008 and expect no ill words or mad faces from you. :p

Composer,

Let's stick to music!

- Doug

:) :)

midislut
05-17-2005, 04:38 PM
thanks for all the replys so far !!

:)

nexus
05-18-2005, 07:36 PM
I can tell you this though, this topic would have been deleted at that other forum many pages ago.

- Doug

Amen, Doug!

It's that atmosphere that you have created here that is so refreshing after the problems I have had at that "other" forum :rolleyes:

I hope we can all remain civil and discuss the merits of these (all) fine orchestral libraries in the spirit of musical exchange among composers and musicians, hobbyist and pro alike. :)

Peter269
05-19-2005, 01:25 AM
We are currently working closely with the developers of Overture 4 which is being optimized for Gold (which means it will work also for Silver and Platinum). I'm also told the other popular notation programs will have a plug-in architecture soon.

- Doug

At this point, Overture 4 is the only one. Sibelius and Finale are behind and I think will take a while to catch up. Not only does O4 work with VSTi's, you can also record your notation tracks to .wav files.

For more info, we have two interesting Roaring Lambs editorials at www.soniccontrol.com:

Overture 4
http://www.soniccontrol.com/roaringlambs/editions/feb2005.shtml

Music Education and The New Curriculum
http://www.soniccontrol.com/roaringlambs/

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 09:23 AM
Thanks for the article Peter. Interesting stuff no doubt. Hopefully, by the time the 'big' 2 catch up, Don will have further advanced and it will become a matter of them always one step behind. ;)

Scott Rogers
05-19-2005, 11:04 AM
[in Overture]...you can also record your notation tracks to .wav files.
This has been a standard feature in Sibelius for awhile now.

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 11:09 AM
But that's only useful if you want to use the built in sounds huh? Yeah, thought so. ;)

Scott Rogers
05-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Hopefully, by the time the 'big' 2 catch up, Don will have further advanced and it will become a matter of them always one step behind. ;)
I'm a little curious as to how it would it be to your benefit for the "big 2" to be "always one step behind", as you put it.

Though I can't speak about Finale, I can say that for purely notational purposes, score writing, engraving, copying, et cetera, Sibelius is considerably ahead of Overture in every way that I've examined - and I've examined all of the major concerns. I recently spent a fair amount of time with Overture because of the upcoming VSTi implementation, and was surprised to see it was still using that antiquated paradigm of palette-based/menu-based input and editing. Of course, there's nothing wrong with this if you're fine with that method, but the Sibelius virtual manuscript approach is a far quicker, more natural, and less fussy way of dealing with notation - whether you're talking about initial input or various macro or micro editing options.

Sibelius was built from the ground up to be used optimally by enabling the user to rely almost exclusively on keyboard shortcuts rather than putzing around with a mouse, palettes, and menus. Of course, you can use these things when you're still getting to know the program or if you're lazy, but if you memorize the keyboard commands and put Sibelius into full screen mode (only the virtual manuscript paper is visible - no palettes, menus, or anything else) you can fly through your score writing and meet deadlines that you wouldn't with other notation software. It also helps not to tangle up the composing side of your brain and allows a little more of the feeling you get with actual manuscript paper - as much as one could hope for on a computer anyway. In Overture, there is only a relatively narrow keyboard command implementation when compared to Sibelius, and this, taken with the complete absence of the virtual manuscript concept accounts for a substantial effect on time/workflow issues.

Sibelius is also ahead in terms of engraving standards as well as font quality and font choice. I'm talking about world class publisher quality engraving here. The engraving options, house styles, font choices and font quality are all about as good as it presently gets - rivaled in this area only by Finale. Yes, I know that Overture has a small subset of these options, but by my observations not even half as many as Sibelius and not nearly as flexible. I also couldn't find any sort of hand font in Overture. Now, it may very well be there, but I searched like the dickens for it and never came across it, neither in the program nor in the manual. But maybe it will be in the new version or maybe I just missed it - either one is possible - but I wouldn't want to be without a hand font for certain types of work.

And I could go on and on about the various other features that exist in Sibelius that are absent in Overture (a vast array of selection filters, a long list of very useful plug-ins, viewing options, scorch publishing, et cetera), but I've already touched on the ones that would matter most to a professional composer/orchestrator and/or music publisher. These are the areas for which Sibelius was originally conceived and intended, and for which it has no peer. (Though for engraving, Finale is also outstanding, it's a slow beast, even with the latest improvements, and in Hollywood there's a joke about Finale being the "F" word. No slight here is intended to Finale users by the way. It's a great program for what it does well.)

Where Overture does obviously excel is in terms of the upcoming VSTi as well as its MIDI implementation, which is fine by me, because that just puts more pressure on Sibelius to at the very least do the same, or even better. This implementation was a clever move by the developer to carve out a temporary niche for Overture rather than try to go head-to-head with Sibelius or Finale on purely notational grounds. For the time being, these two features surely make Overture a very attractive piece of software for the MIDI musician that prefers notation to traditional sequencing methods, but I'd never want to try to meet a brutal deadline with it, nor use it to self-publish my scores.

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 01:53 PM
Then you answered your own question. The future of the product will not be in the score output although that has improved as well.

And it would seem that in today's market, audio output should matter more to the working composer than what the printed output looks like. Of course, if you're trying to get published, that's another story.

There's no reason the market shouldn't split into two halves. Those who want engraver options and those who want high quality midi playback.

Scott Rogers
05-19-2005, 02:44 PM
...it would seem that in today's market, audio output should matter more to the working composer than what the printed output looks like. Of course, if you're trying to get published, that's another story.
According to whose definition of "today's market" and "working composer"? It's certainly not true in the realm of writing for live musicians, and not in an environment of brutal deadlines. Scores and parts are far more than just black dots and cryptic symbols on a page, and there are very good reasons why certain notation and engraving practices have emerged over the centuries. The more polished and professional your score and parts are on the scoring stage or recording studio, the smoother will be your rehearsal and recording session. It's a mistake to think that these matters would only concern a publishing house - they are a professional composer's concern as well, unless no live musicians are to ever be employed.

And being able to meet inhumane deadlines on top of all that is far and away more important to every composer, orchestrator, and arranger I work with than the concern of MIDI routing. This can already be done with MIDI routing go-betweens, and the native implementation just makes it nicer and more immediate. Yes, it's a very nice feature to have if you need it, and many do, but for people who make a living producing scores on time for real musicians, it's not the largest concern. I also don't know of any composer/orchestrator/arranger in Los Angeles, New York, and a number of other places that would be okay without a hand font, which both Sibelius and Finale have had for years now. Further still is the matter of submitting one's concert works to conductors and artistic directors for consideration of live performance.

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 02:55 PM
But you're isolating the thousand users that are comfortable working with notation but have no desire to hand their final score output to a musician and whose work only lives in the digital domain. That's what I meant by the above.

I'm not dismissing your point. I don't think I disputed their ability to create professional looking scores. But that's not my end goal. Some want that, others want better sound output.

Fair enough. Great and different apps for different folks.

Doug Rogers
05-19-2005, 02:57 PM
Maybe you can start a new thread - this is getting off topic.

- Doug

Scott Rogers
05-19-2005, 03:20 PM
But you're isolating the thousand users that are comfortable working with notation but have no desire to hand their final score output to a musician and whose work only lives in the digital domain.
I've isolated no one at all, and that's a highly peculiar interpretation of my words, as I think that what I actually *did* say was rather clear. I merely questioned *your* definition of "today's market" and "working composer". You were defining the matter rather narrowly and I pointed out the fallacy.

I also found a number of not particularly esoteric notation elements and necessities to be simply not doable in Overture, and was never able to find any SMPTE or picture scoring features in the program. My whole point in saying all this is to address a certain narrow definition of what should and should not be of major concern to "working composers".

And I still don't understand this statement:
Hopefully, by the time the 'big' 2 catch up, Don will have further advanced and it will become a matter of them always one step behind. ;)
What difference could it possibly make to you whether or not Sibelius and/or Finale is always "one step behind", according to your very narrow criteria?

Anyway, that's all I have time for on this.

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 05:20 PM
Fair enough, it doesn't matter. I misunderstood some of your statements and obviously I wasn't clear in mine.

Thanks for the reminder Doug. Back on topic now folks.

Bevans
05-22-2005, 09:43 AM
OK. Could you show me just ONE good GPO demo? LG
I think the "Rite of Spring" is good demonstration of GPO. It's not the New York Philharmonic but it's a decent example of computer based music.

lgrohn
05-22-2005, 12:42 PM
I think the "Rite of Spring" is good demonstration of GPO. It's not the New York Philharmonic but it's a decent example of computer based music.
Perhaps it is "a good demonstration of GPO", but many notes are terribly wrong...
I quess because you just can't do it by using GPO.
Such demos should be burned and Garritan should be sent to court because of the faked music.
The demo is a big insult against Stravisky's great music!
LG

Bevans
05-22-2005, 03:59 PM
Like I said, it's not the New York Philharmonic, or Cleveland and Boulez, but it's just an example of what we all try to do with the computer. As far as Garritan going to the stake--- why not send Bernstein (not now of course). He did some renotating in the Dance Sacrale (spelling?) of the "Rite" that had Stravinsky climbing up the wall.
I don't know what the wrong notes are. I didn't hear any, but then my ears are not that good.