Using Sibelius 3 and other notation software

[AndyFinkenstadt]

I plan on this thread being a compendium of helpful hints to use with the various EWQL products RA, SO, and Colossus.

Important ideas that I think need to be covered include how to use the various instruments from RA that have different articulations based on velocity (such as the pipes of various flavors) and getting Sibelius to express these sounds appropriately.

Sibelius operates by generating MIDI data and sending it down a midi device, or saving it into a standard midi type 1 format file. It has the capability to vary the velocities by defining custom sound sets and varying house rules. Unfortunately a sound set is not an easy thing to define programmatically, requiring meticulous hand editing and copying -- especially since the built-in kompakt players to these programs only support 8 instruments at a time, when the encompassing library has hundreds of instruments.

[mikegit@mac.com]

I've been using Sibelius for almost a year, and in order to service a client I recently tried to upgrade the symphonic playback of the program by purchasing Garritan Personal Orchestra. It will not install on my G4 Powerbook (1G memory, 667Mhz) so I'm faced with upgrading my hardware (and sample library?) to a dual G5 system.

Since I'm changing hardware and probably sample libraries as well, I'm wondering what is the preferred method of producing symphonic or instrumental playback from Sibelius scores. I will also be using Logic Express or Pro 7.1. I am aware that Logic has a notation view, but I would prefer to work with Sibelius for the superior notation tools that it provides. I would also like to avoid exporting files from Logic back in to Sibelius for part printing. I intend to provide professional composition and orchestration services to film and video post facilities, as well as produce finished product of my own work.

It seems that a basic working method decision must be made between exporting MIDI files from Sibelius scores to a sequencer (Logic) for extended MIDI track building to use the various articulations of sample libraries, or working within Sibelius using only the library (Kontakt-something) playback engine supported within Sibelius.

So my questions are:

1. Is there a sample library that provides a workable option to Kontakt Silver usable from within (no export) Sibelius? The ability to hear your orchestration while your working with the score seems to be invaluable.

2. If playback from within Sibelius while composing isn't really practical, which libraries provide the most stable and workable environment outside of Sibelius?

3. If working outside of Sibelius is preferred, is there a good Exs24 sample library available?

3. Are AU-native sample libraries an advantage?

All input is welcome and appreciated, thank you.

[AndyFinkenstadt]

I have not used a Macintosh except incidentally since I put my IIfx in storage quite a few years ago now. I am sorely tempted though...

But speaking from a PC point of view, I regularly set up kompakt with ewqlso silver or gold through a virtual midi cable to listen as I key in my notes in Sibelius. There's no default sound set that fits, so I tend to manually set the channel assignments in both Sibelius and Kompakt (the embedded player). And I can play parts in real time from sibelius...

I lose the ability to "Save as audio file" in Sibelius by taking this step, though. But you macintosh people have the wiretap facility to do the recording step. Us PC folks have to use sound recorder and features of our sound card to record the "wave out" resulting mix. And even then it can be problematic with disk contention.

[AndyFinkenstadt]

It IS possible to do keyswitched articulation changes while using Sibelius. Not quite as convenient as writing "pizz." and "arco" in the technique text on the staff. (Although in theory kontakt 2 allows program change events (which is the way Sibelius does it automatically) to switch between instruments in an instrument bank, I haven't actually done this yet.)

The attached zip file (sibelius score & resulting MIDI file) was used with the EWQLSO Gold concert flute keyswitched c0-F#0 to enable staccato and other techniques in-line.

The general technique is to manually enter in Note_on and Note_off events using the "~N20,1" and "~O20" midi message tags above the staff. The "~" causes the text to be hidden, and starts the sequence for controlling various things-midi. ~CC11,blah would set the expression controller, and so on.

[Daryl]

I'm afraid that the real answer is the one that you don't want to hear :)

If you want your music to sound good it needs to be sequenced properly.

If you want your music to look good when printed it needs to be in a dedicated notation program like Sibelius.

To try to do both in the same program (at present) forces a compromise on either the quality of performance or of engraving.

Daryl

[matthew82475]

Although some may say that I'm not the best qualified person to comment because I haven't been using EWQLSO Silver long enough (and they may very well be correct), thus far, I've found that Finale 2005b and Silver work reasonably well together. The new Human Playback feature is surprisingly effective in giving a good sense of what a piece might sound like when performed live. Although it is certainly not without its flaws, setting up Finale with MIDI Yoke and EWQLSO Silver does a pretty good job.

The key to it though (no pun intended) is to set the dynamic playback option to key velocity only. Since Silver ignores the volume controller and you can't set Finale to use the expression controller, key velocity alone makes a world of difference. The other thing that needs to be changed is the key velocities assigned to each dynamic. I use:

ff - 127
f - 106
mf - 81
mp - 56
p - 41
pp - 30

You may notice that I don't use the triple or quadruple dynamic markings. From a performer's perspective I've never quite been able to figure out how to sing or play louder than loudest or softer than softest, so I simply don't use those dynamic markings. Personally, I think they're silly.

Thus far, I've got no complaints. When I finish a piece of music, Finale allows you to export a MIDI file (with Human Playback active) which I then open in Cubase and manually adjust the details and fine tune. Having most of the material already sequenced (notes, basic dynamic levels, tempo changes, etc.), it saves a bundle of time and allows me to get a properly sequenced piece of music (as recommended by Daryl).

Matt

P.S. When doing the fine tuning, print out a copy of the score. I tried doing it without the score initially and it was a serious headache.

[Daryl]

Finale is also a good notation program to use, however if you have Sibelius then Finale won't add anything to what you've already got.

Daryl

[AndyFinkenstadt]

So much of what is needed for a notation program to drive EWQL products is common across Sibelius, Finale, and so on:

the abiliyt to vary the velocity, the ability to send note_on and _off events, the ability to control arbitrary controllers (CC11 for expression, whatever mod wheel is, pitch bend, etc.), the ability to advance or delay the actual start of a note to "humanize" the performance, and so on.

Sibelius has them. Finale 2005 has them (according to reports).

[banquo]

there are some good plug-ins for sibelius on the GPO support page.

This one translates legato lines into midi data [pretty much repllicating a pedal]
legato (http://garritan.com/support/LegatoSlursGPO.plg)

This one does the same for crescendos and dimuendos:
Cresc/Dim (http://garritan.com/support/CrescAndDimGPO.plg)


and that's my contribution. Enjoy!

*Rob.

[AndyFinkenstadt]

Recipe for getting started with Sibelius & EWQLSO

1: Sibelius software (3.0 or better, don't know about earlier models)

2: MIDI device "virtual midi cable" software, such as MIDI YOKE or Maple MIDI tools for the PC, not sure what for the Macintosh

3: An EWQLSO library with the standalone kompakt instrument player

Preconfiguration:

install the VIRTUAL MIDI CABLE software, and probably reboot to activate the new device drivers.

Ready:

Start up the Kompakt player. Choose the "File, Setup..." menu. Click the MIDI tab. Choose one of the MIDI YOKE devices. (I tend to use #8, since it's at the bottom of my menu listing. Your experience may vary.) Click OKAY.

Select a few instruments in slots 1 through 8. For each instrument, note that the MIDI Channel changes from OMNI to channels 1 through 8. If not, make it so. (It's the number next to what looks like a 5-pin MIDI cable shell on the far left side.)

Test each instrument by selecting it in the list and clicking in the piano keyboard area of kompakt. Some instruments need the mod-wheel advanced a bit to create sounds.

Set:

Pull up Sibelius 3.0. Open up or create a score file with the instruments you chose for Kompakt. Go to the "Play, Devices..." menu, and make sure that MIDI YOKE #8 is selected for playback through, and that all other devices are turned off.

Go to the MIXER window (Windows menu, Mixer menu item). Make sure that each staff instrument goes to the appropirate device and channel numbers. (The device should automatically be the one you enabled previously, but if you experiment with multiple devices, you'll need to select the appropriate ones.) The channel numbers are varied by clicking on each instrument vertical bar, and then modifying it in the channel pick list.

Go:

Enter notes on the staves. Or click PLAY on a pre-made score.

You should have sound.

You won't be able to use the "Save as audio file..." feature within Sibelius 3.x using this method. But that's okay for now...

[JacKuLL]

New to this thread...
Since this discuss Sibelius, I would like to ask how to Export MIDI to Logic. It is a piano style sketch and I would like to continue sequencing it in Logic to edit it better rather than using the Sibelius playback. How to export it as different voices in midi, kinda like having 4 separate midi of 4 voices?

Thanks guys,
JACKuLL

[AndyFinkenstadt]

My sibelius is at home, but from memory, under the File... menu there is a "Save as..." option that includes MIDI files.

[AndyFinkenstadt]

Although I just re-read what you typed and it sounds like you have a piano sketch on a piano (grand)staff, and want it arranged out as four voices on four separate midi channels?

First go to Instruments (capital I) and add your four voices.

Next, select the passage of piano score you want to arrange. (Mouse-click, hold shift, mouse-click at end of passage)

Next, choose "Copy". Then in the Edit... menu there's an item for "Arrange".

There are quite a few options for that, including one that describes from top-to-bottom four part writing.

andy

[JacKuLL]

Although I just re-read what you typed and it sounds like you have a piano sketch on a piano (grand)staff, and want it arranged out as four voices on four separate midi channels?

Sounds like that. I already assign the 4-voices in a piano grand-staff in sibelius. lets say voice1(blue), v2(green), v3(ylw) & v4(pnk). How could I export this 4 voices to 4 separate midi track GM? So I can put it to logic for better playback.

thanks for the reply andy,

jacKuLL

[AndyFinkenstadt]

Okay, that's easier, actually.

Create your four additional voice staves. Since you are going to assign them instruments elsewhere, no need to accurately describe them in Sibelius unless you wish.

(RE-)Highlight the piano staff passage. Edit, Filter, "Voice 1 only". Copy. Click in voice 1 new staff. Paste. Repeat for "Voice 2 only", "Voice 3 only", and "Voice 4 only".

[AndyFinkenstadt]

Also, after pasting in your selection onto the new staves, you might want to set them all to voice. 1.

[JacKuLL]

Thanks a lot, you're very helpful. appreciate it... will keep note of you if i got more sib questions. good luck...

jacKuLL

[AndyFinkenstadt]

You're quite welcome.

[Andrew Sigler]

Hello!

I was very happy to find this thread. I've been using Sibelius with Garritan Personal Orchestra for several months now and have good results with it. I recently came across East/West and was (as most are) amazed by the quality of the sounds. I was so impressed that i bought the RA/Colossus/SC package and am presently in the Stormdrum Groupbuy. Gold is probably on the way. I write music for commercials, theater, film, and occasionally art music. I'm usually a bit more reflective when buying (investing in...) software, but this stuff really knocked me out. HOwever, i bought it without really considering how it would change my music creating process. I really enjoy entering into Sibelius and simply hearing the music played back. Some projects actually require a score to be generated, so I need that. I also use SONAR 4 and have a Roland FantomX-6.



Now to the questions...

1. With GPO, I've downloaded a patch that allows reacording from the Kontakt player. This results in a .WAV file that I can in turn convert to .MPG or whatever. What can I do to create the files with EWQL software?

2. I'm planning on buying a whole new system as the one i have now is not really powerful enough to handle all this. Any suggestions/specs? I've looked at Dell systems and vision DAW. While price IS an object, I do this for a living, so higher end systems are what I'm looking for.

Thanks!

-Andy

[Thomas]

SIGUITAR1,

I have been using a dedicated sample playing computer for a few months, and I couldn't be happier. Like you, I wanted something powerful to hold and play the sounds, while I run Sibelius on my main computer. But I didn't want to spend as much as the Vision DAW and other pre-built systems. So I ordered the components from chiefvalue.com and put one together myself. It only took an afternoon to assemble and works like a dream - and only cost about 1500 bucks with monitor and everything. Here is what I built:

AMD 64 bit 3200 processor
MSI RS480M2-IL motherboard
4 gigabytes of ram - (4 sticks of 1 GB GE1GB3200BSC)
Maxtor SATA 300 gig hard drive (for samples) 6B300S0
Maxtor 200 gig ide drive for operating system and software
Silverstone flat desktop silver case, SST-LC11-S
17 inch LCD monitor
CD + DVD writer and reader Liteon sohw-1673S

I put in a sound card that I had laying around spare, which is a Hammerfall Digi9636. It has 16 channels of of adat lightpipe ins and outs, which digitally plug into my mixer for 16 separate outs, which is cool. The sound card is the only thing I didn't pay for in the bill of $1517.44. If you compare this to the Vision DAW system (which has no monitor in the $2500 price) you realize that it is a thousand dollars cheaper, and has twice as much ram as the Vision, five times the disk storage space, a faster processor, a better CD/DVD burner, a better case, plus a monitor. If you don't want the expensive Silverstone case that I bought, and don't need a monitor, you can get this system for about a grand. I picked the Silverstone case because it is flat, like a Tivo box, or hi-fi component, which sits on my desk with the space-saving LCD monitor on top. I wanted it to be small and handy. Actually, everything in my system is superior to the Vision DAW except that thier SATA drive is a 10,000 rpm Raptor, whereas mine is 7200. The extremely low cost of the 7200 over the expensive Raptor made me make this one compromise, especially because there is just not enough storage available on small 38 gig Raptors, which cost more than a 300 gig 7200 SATA. I chose storage space over speed in this case, but if money is no object get a few 10,000 rpm SATAs if you want to have the very best.

Anyway, with the 4 gigs of ram and the SATA hard drive and the 64 bit processor, the samples are playing like crazy, and I have not had one problem or crash yet.

I think this is all I need, because with Kontakt 2 it is now possible to play many more sounds with less computing power and ram than before, because of the new "purge sample" feature of Kontakt 2, combined with the new "instrument bank" function of that program. The "instrument bank" function in the new Kontakt 2 program makes working with EWQLSO and Sibelius a real breeze, because Sibelius handles program changes much more effectively than keyswitches. I really think the new features in Kontakt 2 make it essential for working with Sibelius.

Good luck.

[Andrew Sigler]

Thomas!

Thanks for a such a comprehensive response. I'm flattered that you think I know how to assemble a computer! I'm not sure if I'm quite up to that, but i may be. Any pointers would be appreciated. I figure that these days, part of writng music for a living is having a pretty good sense of computers and how they work. If not, I may have a few friends that can give me a hand. To make sure I understand: you are using one computer for Sibelius and a seperate one for samples, yes? I'd like to see if it can all be consolidated into a single system. What do you think? The one I'm using now will be the family computer so to speak, so it will be out of the picture. I suppose if the prices are lowered so much by ordering components as you have done, then the possibilty of buying two systems (?) might work.

I wonder if you could tell me more about Kontakt 2. Obviously all this is still relatively new to me, so thanks in advance for your patience. I believe that Garritan Personal Orchestra comes bundled with Kontakt 1 (?) So what's the difference, what's new, how do i get it, can I just plug in the EWQL samples the same way I do with GPO? More efficient than keyswitching?



Enough questions for now,

Thanks so much, it's a big help!

Andy

[frave]

Hi all!

I want to use Sibelius with more then 8 instruments! How can i make this working?

Thanks in advance

frave

[Thomas]

Frave,

There are basically two ways to get more than 8 instruments in Sibelius. One is to get Kontak 2, (around 500 bucks), because Kontakt 2 can hold 64 instruments at once (and each instrument can freely change between 128 programs). In one load of Kontak 2 you can easily play all the sounds in EWQLSO, provide you have enough ram.

The other way, cheaper than Kontakt 2, is to get the program Steinberg V-Stack or Brainspawn Forte, which are virtual instrument hosts that can load multiple copies of your EWQLSO kompakt. With Forte or V-Stack you can have as several sets of 8 instruments. However, to use either of these programs with Sibelius you will also need a virtual midi router, such as Midi Yoke, or Maple Midi, - and these are both free on the internet (if you do a search).

[sinkd]

Frave,

There are basically two ways to get more than 8 instruments in Sibelius. One is to get Kontak 2, (around 500 bucks),

The other way, cheaper than Kontakt 2, is to get the program Steinberg V-Stack or Brainspawn Forte,

Hi Thomas,

Another question: I am getting an outboard PC (maybe 2--thanks for the tips in the PC for Platinum thread!) and was wondering if you can't just duplicate the Kompakt standalone apps in Windows like you can in OS X. When I do this, and then assign different MIDI channels to the second instance of, say, SOStrings, I don't need any third app like Kontakt...

BTW, Kontakt 2 (http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?id=shopdetail_us&prid=532) is only $339 for registered EW users

[Andrew Sigler]

I went to NI site and noticed that K2 was offered at a discount to EWQL and GPO folks. NICE! I've downloaded MIDI yolk already, but I'm curious what people think of the advantages of Forte/V-Stack + Kontakt 1 + MIDI yolk -versus- investing in Kontakt 2?

[frave]

thanks siguitar1 for your help

i've allready used midi maple for playing with ewqlso. i've tried to load more instances of kontakt player (standalone in windows, not vst-hosts) and assigned different midi outputs and channels to each one. But i got only strange behaivor of the programs. The second instance of kontakt player got no data. Thougth there would be a way realizing that without spending some money.
Anyway thanks again, now i know possible further steps!

frave

[AndyFinkenstadt]

Take a look at the (free) VSTHOST application named VSTHOST. It runs mulitple instances of Kontakt-based instruments within itself.

[Thomas]

I haven't tried Brainspawn Forte or VSTHOST, but I do use V-Stack and it works well to load multiple instances of kompakt and/or kontakt and play them all at the same time. It is also good if you want to combine other vst instruments with EWQLSO in a non-hosting program like Sibelius.

Siguitar - your question about the advantages of Kontakt 2 over Kontakt 1, - it is really a completely new and significantly better program. Kontakt 2 has instrument banks for each sound, which means you can load as many sounds as you like (up to 128) into one channel, and switch between them using program change. Kontakt 2 has 64 instrument slots (each can be a bank) and Kontakt 2 has the "purge sample" feature which enables you to use many more different EWQLSO sounds at one time without taking up nearly as much ram as you would with Kompakt or Kontakt 1.

[Andrew Sigler]

Hi,

I've downloaded the demo of Kontakt 2 from the NI site, and it seems to be a whole new beast. Very cool. I'm in the middle of tons of new hardware and software, so it's easy to look at K2 and just make it another among many purchases. Odds are, it'll happen...

-Andy

[Justin M]

When importing EWQLSO into Kontakt 2 does it keep all controllers, volume and pan settings?

also

Can the DFD handle full orchestral templates, if so what settings?

Thanx in advance

[erdu horn]

Actually, I 'm having trouble running K2 with Sibelius 3 on the PC. I can use K 1 and that works fine, but not K2. I 've tried using Forte as a host and still Sibelius will come up with a dialog box saying that a midi device can't be played and use find new devices. That don't work. Sibelius just don't want to see K2 on my system. I was wondering if any one else was having a problem like this as well. I also tried all sorts of combinations of midi yoke and still get no response.

Jerry

[AndyFinkenstadt]

I haven't actually tried hooking up K2 with Sibelius yet; I'd be hard-pressed to think of why it couldn't work, it's just another device on the end of a virtual midi cable...

[erdu horn]

Well, what d'ya know? After I read that last post. I decided to try again and lo and behold, it started working. Gee, I wonder if all my other problems will be solved if I post a message about 'em. Jus' kidding. Now, I am a happy camper. Only thing left is to wait until "Choirs" arrive. :)

Jerry

[Vince]

Hi,

This is my first post, but I've spent a lot of time reading the previous posts. Wow! You guys are great. I've learned so much already. I'm a new composer and e-musician/keyboardist. I'm getting ready to buy EWQL Platinum and use it with Sibelius and CubaseSX3. I've read how Thomas (on this thread, a while back) described what type of computer he's running the library on. That sounds awesome. Too bad we can't build our own Macs and save that kind of money. I see I'm going to need another Mac to run the samples.

Thomas, if you're around, can you tell me what kind of computer you're running Sibelius with. I have a G4, 1.2 GHz, with 1.2 G Ram and it's running Sibelius and/or Cubase fine. I'm currently using my Motif ES8 keyboard as a playback device. How do you have the two computers connected? Which version of the EWQL are you using? And are you using a software midi interface with Sibelius?

Sorry so many questions. Thanx for your help.

Vince
NYC

[frave]

Hi
i got now my new pc:
an amd 64 3000+ with 4 gb ram.

but i still wonder why i can't increase polyphony a lot! When more instruments play fast staccatos, a lot of notes where dropped out! Is there any way to increase polyphony. Are there some hinds?

thanks for any answers

[andygrainger]

Ok,....So I'd like to route the output of Sibelius into Konakt with EWQLSO Gold. I see references to Midi Yoke and Maple etc for the PC. Has anyone discovered a similar virtual midi routing program for the Mac? I have searched, but have not found one.

Thanks is advance, Andy

[AndyFinkenstadt]

For some reason I thought it was built-in to the Macintosh operating system? I haven't used a mac of recent vintage to know for sure.

I remember reading on the Sibelius boards about something called ... Wiretap? ... on the Mac that would let you record to sound to disk instead of to the speakers. That was to facilitate the recording of the kontakt instruments in the first place. I always assumed that the mac versions just show up as a virtual port automatically.

[andygrainger]

Thanks for the quick reply Andy....Yes, Wiretap is an audio capture program - it used to be Audio Hijak.....but I'm after an internal midi routing program. You might be able to use the IAC buss, but I'm not sure how this works....it is not highlighted in my Audio/Midi Setup.

If anyone in the Mac world has linked Sibelius with Kontakt on the same machine, please let me know how you did it. I did manage to hook up my giga machine to Sibelius via my amt8 midi interface, but of course that's different. I now want to make a similar connection, but just on my G5, and with Kontakt.

Andy

[Sean R. Beeson]

You will want to turn the IAC busses on. You can do this in the Audio MIDI setup page. Then double click on the IAC Bus button. Then there will be a switch in that interface somehwere that you will need to click, so that it says. "This device is online". Then the IAC busses will be ready for internal use.

Sean

[andygrainger]

Thanks Sean.....Success!.....the IAC bus now shows up in the midi port menus, and I have got Sibelius to play Kontakt!

Andy

[Justin M]

Does anyone know if Sibelius 4 is more EWQLSO friendly?

[Daryl]

AFAIK there is no change to Sib 3 in that respect.

D

[Nuxta]

I'm still having some trouble getting this to work properly. This step that you mentioned:

Start up the Kompakt player. Choose the "File, Setup..." menu. Click the MIDI tab. Choose one of the MIDI YOKE devices. (I tend to use #8, since it's at the bottom of my menu listing. Your experience may vary.) Click OKAY.

I'm using MIDI Maple, which only uses 4, but regardless, do we change the midi OUTPUT tabs or the INPUT tabs? Either way i'm not getting it to work. (Oh by the way i'm using Kompakt Gold, if that changes anything)

Thanks for the help!

[gljm99]

Just my 2cents but the best notation program if you want a notation program to playback is Overture 4. I used Sibelius but got frustrated by the fact that you have almost no control over editing midi data and it's not friendly to any sample librarys and it doesn't look like it will host VSTs anytime soon. Your only able to host sounds from sample librarys only after jumping thru hoops and pulling out your hair. Is Overture 4 a perfect program -no - is it the prettist looking copies made - maybe not but they're coming close. But it is very user friendly and has great VST hosting ( I run EWQLSO using Kontakt 2 opening 3-4 instances of Kontakt 2 with no problems )and allows for total midi editing. It also allows for sample changes by programing articulation symbols to play for example a stacato sample buy just telling the stacato dot over the note to change to a different sample. Yes there is no version for Macs yet but as a PC user I don't care LOL and yes it still has some bugs - the latest patch upgrade is driving me up the wall - but the program is a work in progress and has some great support , and NO I am not in any way part of the Overture 4 team or involved with them, I'm just a user who is really satisfied but what it can do and as I'm not a computer programer or software expert but a composer I find I spend a lot more time composing then figuring out how to run the program.

[mattmann13]

Frave,

There are basically two ways to get more than 8 instruments in Sibelius. One is to get Kontak 2, (around 500 bucks), because Kontakt 2 can hold 64 instruments at once (and each instrument can freely change between 128 programs). In one load of Kontak 2 you can easily play all the sounds in EWQLSO, provide you have enough ram.

The other way, cheaper than Kontakt 2, is to get the program Steinberg V-Stack or Brainspawn Forte, which are virtual instrument hosts that can load multiple copies of your EWQLSO kompakt. With Forte or V-Stack you can have as several sets of 8 instruments. However, to use either of these programs with Sibelius you will also need a virtual midi router, such as Midi Yoke, or Maple Midi, - and these are both free on the internet (if you do a search).

The methods you describe seem to be only ways of having more instruments or program changes. Just wondering if there is a way of having more than 8 discrete midi routers when using midiyoke. Forgive me if I'm wrong but i don't know if this is possible.