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Slider
05-14-2005, 04:20 PM
(As you may recall, I've never dealt with sampling/sequencing before, just basic recording of my Yamaha keyboard into an old version of Cakewalk Home Studio, just to get my ideas recorded onto the computer. So, please bear with me.)

I need a realistic-sounding rhythm section for the hundreds of songs that I've written using the cheesy "auto-accompaniment" feature of my cheap Yamaha PSR-GX76 keyboard. I've got the chords and melodies I want, but, I need to have a better "band". Problem is, I'm sort of "all about chords and melody" - I don't know how to compose a drum track from scratch, or a bass track, or any kind of rhythmic guitar strumming, etc., so I can't just buy "Drumkit From Hell", for example, and start Making A Groove. I do know a good basic groove when I hear it though, so, I've been looking into various loop CDs to see if there are any grooves that I like, in styles that would fit my songs. But here's my question about how these loop CDs are organized:

If I hear a cool-sounding demo of a groove, but I'd like to change maybe two or three things about it (like, using a different drum sound here or there, or having the bassline do something different), how would I do that? Do these CDs come with both a high-quality sound library *and* the MIDI patterns that *trigger* the individual sounds to produce the audio grooves I'm hearing? (in which case I could edit the groove however I wanted) Or are these just simple audio clips that don't let you replace individual notes/events? I hear some good drum grooves on "Artist Drums", for example, and it says "Every kit contains dozens of MIDI files with complex grooves and fills". So, does that mean that the demos I'm hearing (with the high-quality instrument sounds) are actually composed of individually-sampled sounds being triggered by a MIDI (i.e., editable) version of the groove? If so, that's exactly what I want. If not, then would you suggest I invest in something like Band-In-A-Box to generate MIDI styles/grooves (they've got quite a few good ones now), bring them into [my recently purchased] Sonar, and then buy EW stuff like "Drumkit From Hell" and "QL Guitar & Bass" to be the sound libraries played *by* the B-I-A-B MIDI groove *in* Sonar?

I'm just trying to end up with highest-quality instrument sounds, playing already-composed (and better-than-Yamaha-AutoAccompaniment) rhythm section grooves - BUT with the individual-note editability of MIDI, if I feel it needs it. Thanks.

- Slider

ToddK
05-14-2005, 04:25 PM
Sounds like you're talking about something like Spectrasonics Stylus
and or Stylus RMX.

Type those into Google and check them out. I think they are the answer to
your prayers. :)

There should be plenty of demos that'll blow you away.
I have Stylus and its very easy to use. Lots of great loops, and you can
change them. They give you a choice of loops and midi files. :cool:

TK

Composer
05-14-2005, 06:46 PM
I need a realistic-sounding rhythm section for the hundreds of songs that I've written using the cheesy "auto-accompaniment" feature of my cheap Yamaha

You yourself call the auto accompaniment feature cheesy and yet you want to continue with this?

I don't know how to compose a drum track from scratch, or a bass track, or any kind of rhythmic guitar strumming, etc., so I can't just buy "Drumkit From Hell", for example, and start Making A Groove.

Heaven forbid you learn! :eek: Think of how awful that would be!! You'd have to buy some sort of arranging book, maybe an introductory drumming or bass book like these:

Berklee Practice Method; Bass (http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/product?product_id=11340&category_id=16)

Reading drum notation (http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/product?product_id=11236&category_id=21)

Berklee Practice Method; Drum Set (http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/product?product_id=11357&category_id=21)

Arranging for Midi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/082561130X/qid=1116121055/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8854207-2873509?v=glance&s=books)

Berklee's Arranging for Midi (http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/product?product_id=11253&category_id=7)

Come on. Get off your ass and spend time on your craft if you want to be taken seriously. I don't mean to insult your talent, but I do mean to insult your ego so that maybe you'll stop being so damn lazy and learn to write your own drum and bass grooves. This is a good example of why technology can be bad; it leads to laziness.

I, for one, have absolutely no desire whatsoever to hear your music because right now all I know is that it was written by a lazy composer who won't even consider spending time to improve his craft.

Turn from thy lazy ways, sluggard. Become a true composer.

Edit: and please, no one respond saying that I'm being rude or too harsh with this person, because we all know this is exactly the kind of talk he needs. My guitar teacher used to bark at me just the same when I said I didn't want to learn theory ("it stifles creativity!"), I eventually conceded and am now an infinitely better musician for it.

ToddK
05-14-2005, 07:55 PM
Sometimes its not so much "what" you say, its How you say it.

Though i do agree with you. I've done the work.
Its been well worth the journey.

But there is definatly hostility in your post. Try not to get too worked
up over these things. :)
Life is just too short for stress. ;)

But, you ARE correct sir! LOL

Regards,
TK

chocothrax
05-16-2005, 12:48 PM
Composer do you have any of your music online? Just wondering.

DallasComposer
05-16-2005, 12:56 PM
I just wanted to ask ...

Become a true composer.
what is a 'true composer'? :)

DallasComposer
05-16-2005, 02:10 PM
I'm not getting into the heated debate here nor have I posted for or against, but I still want to know ... what is a 'true composer'?

Composer
05-16-2005, 02:21 PM
I don't have the official definition for that, and I was using a bit of hyperbole. But I would think that a true composer is similar to a true scholar in that he is always learning. A scholar will never say, "Finally! Now I have learned all there is to learn. I am now a true scholar." Same with composing. It is a life long journey, and you should always be attempting to improve your abilities. To say to yourself, "I can't compose drum and bass grooves and that's that!" is to do yourself a grave disservce.

ToddK
05-16-2005, 02:24 PM
I think what he means by "True composer" , is to simply understand
music, and what its made of through and through.

Not just cueing up loops and phrases.

Understanding Harmony, and beat division. And having your own musical
vision, instead of borrowing too heavily from pre-fab material.

I can understand Composer's frustration.

I mean, i use loops once in a while, and all that jazz, BUT!

You can literally train a chimpanzee to double click a bunch of
pre-fab loops in Acid. :confused:
Is that what its coming to? That's very scary for those of us who have
spent our lives studying the art.

TK

Composer
05-16-2005, 02:32 PM
Drum and bass grooves are soo easy! Start with the kick drum on 1 and 3, the snare on 2 and 4, the high hat playing 8ths, and have the bass playing roots or fifths on 1 and 3. This is the easiest drum groove in the world. Next, switch it up a little. Maybe have the kick drum play 1 and 'uh' of the first beat and 3, snare still on 2 and 4, high hat still playing 8ths, bass still playing roots and fifths. Don't worry about fills for now - they will come as you continue to learn. Why not try the snare on 1 and 3 and the kick drum on 2 and 4? Start easy then experiment! (these examples were all in a rock style, of course)

And most importantly, transcribe! Find your favorite CD's and transcribe the drum part. It is very easy! If you're having trouble, learn to conduct in 4/4 - it will help a lot. What beats was the kick drum playing on? What beats was the snare playing on? Was the high hat playing 8ths or 16ths or something different? Was it open or closed? Order some kind of lead sheets off of sheetmusicplus and record the drum parts, next record the bass parts. Learn!! Its an adventure! Why let a program take all the fun out of your adventure learning music?

chocothrax
05-16-2005, 02:37 PM
Maybe you missed my question but do you have any music online composer? I don't mean that in an antagonistic way, i'm just curious.

lovelysilence
05-16-2005, 02:43 PM
Composer, while you may say things that seem true in my opinion, on most forums there are rules with regards to what you can't say, i.e. foul language. You have used some of this language in your posts and this doesn't enhance the communication in any way. I assume you have a fierce or fiery personality, which is fine, but please be polite. I remember Doug saying he is so happy with the interaction in the forum posts. Let's keep it that way.

Composer
05-16-2005, 02:45 PM
No, I don't have a webpage to host my music, and have none of it online.

Evan
05-16-2005, 02:46 PM
i'll side with composer on this one..he really is doing slider a favor by helping him learn...

DallasComposer
05-16-2005, 02:51 PM
This is too much fun!

Thanks for the definitions, although I knew what you meant I just wanted to see the way people explain 'true composer'. There are a lot of people who know nothing about the mechanics of music but write very good stuff and those who are too educated and write boring stuff and the rest of us in between. But I agree, one should always want to learn more and grow, absolutley, so I'll take that as a definition of a 'true composer'.

;)

Composer
05-16-2005, 02:53 PM
LovelySilence (and that really is a nice name), I said in my first post that my guitar teacher used to "bark" at me just the same when I said I didn't want to learn this or that, or thought learning something would stifle my creativity or went on with similar nonsense. And like I said earlier, I eventually conceded and am now a better musician for it.

Believe me, I only called him a lazy, ignorant simpleton for the nicest and most sincere of reasons. I admit, though, that I can see where one might find that insulting, and on second thought probably should have left out the word "simpleton".

chocothrax
05-16-2005, 02:56 PM
Yeah there are plenty of composers out there that know allllll the rulessss it's scary but when you listen to their music it can be downright horrible to listen to. I'm afraid to learn thinking I migth end up like that, not to mention the best composer ever- Danny Elfman :) is self taught...

DallasComposer
05-16-2005, 03:06 PM
Well, I disagree, the best composer out there is Ryuichi Sakamoto and he has a master's from Tokyo Geijutsu University (this was replied to in fun)

see .. 2 great composers, one self taught, one highly educated, both driven to learn what they need to be what they are.

Composer
05-16-2005, 03:10 PM
Self taught. I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding that because Elfman and Zimmer didn't go to a conservatory, they can just sit around and do nothing and become as talented as they are. It won't happen.

It is my understanding that Hans Zimmer, after touring with that rock band who's name escapes me, became an apprentice to a film composer in the UK and had regular access to an orchestra. He was allowed to write the occasional cue and Zimmer said that originally, his music sounded awful and none of it would get used, but he said (and this quote I do remember exactly) "when you're writing for a live orchestra, you very quickly learn how to make it sound good". And more and more of his music started getting used. How many people out there that are planning to "self teach" themselves have this kind of access?

Also, I remember reading a Zimmer interview (I think it was the Cubase one) where he said he would sit and listen to Mahler to hear how he would use his woodwinds, because he thought Mahler used them well. Self taught.

And Elfman traveled with some sort of touring group with his brother remember? He said he would transcribe horn solos, or write them out, and even played the violin, right? Again, how many people that plan to self teach themselves have these circumstances?

And don't forget the orchestrators they use!!!

Besides, if you want to compare composers who traditionally studied to composers who didn't, it will be terribly one sided.

Composers who "didn't study":
Elfman
Zimmer
Schoenberg (I beleive)
and thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

Private lessons:
Mozart
Haydn
Beethoven
Stravinsky

Conservatory:
Techaikovsky
Berlioz
Debussy
Ravel
Holst
Satie (yes, he actually did study, and I do like his music)
Vaughan Williams
John Williams
Horner
etc, etc.

DallasComposer
05-16-2005, 03:28 PM
I think we have gone full circle here and have stated what Slider needed to hear, and that is to learn.

Self taught or schooled, whatever, point is and you (composer) make it however indirectly, those ‘great’ composers out there worked hard and wanted to learn, be it in a school, a band or in their room, they dug in and did what they needed to do with what opportunities they had to make their craft better. A true composer.

I'l shut up on this, was fun though :)

Time for tea and cookies.

chocothrax
05-16-2005, 03:35 PM
Well I don't have enough money to go to some school to learn anways....although I should probably study some John Williams signature scores...

PaulR
05-16-2005, 04:32 PM
Wow! So many 'composers' round here :p :D

lovelysilence
05-17-2005, 02:37 AM
Get off your ass ...
.. but I do mean to insult your ego so that maybe you'll stop being so damn lazy

I, for one, have absolutely no desire whatsoever to hear your music because right now all I know is that it was written by a lazy composer who won't even consider spending time to improve his craft.

Turn from thy lazy ways, sluggard.

Edit: and please, no one respond saying that I'm being rude or too harsh with this person, because we all know this is exactly the kind of talk he needs.


Most of this , i find based on assumptions in that you don't know his background, his current situation, nor his goals. To me the basic rule sounds like : only give criticism when (1) asked to and (2) in a constructive manner.
1. Your criticism on his making music is not asked, only an advice for him on how to re-record his MIDI files with better sounds.
2. Telling someone he's lazy, i don't find constructive, since constructive criticism requires that you know the person's situation inside out and aid him/her take the next step in personal evolution. It might well be you made him think the wrong things about his project.

Being harsh helps sometimes, i know. Don't forget though, that you enrolled in that guitar course and that this place is still only a forum, not a workshop where you are the teacher. It takes experience and wisdom to use the best method of interaction at any given time and IMHO you acted prematurely here.

lovelysilence
05-17-2005, 02:40 AM
Oh yeah, almost forgot to write that this is the Soundsonline forum and not a forum on well-behaviour. I hope we can work together to keep it that way.

awpmusic
05-17-2005, 12:16 PM
No, I don't have a webpage to host my music, and have none of it online.

now why doesn't that surprise me . . .

Composer
05-17-2005, 12:31 PM
Why are you people still harping on in this thread? Brahms & Liszt has been banned, Slider hasn't logged onto soundsonline since Saturday, and everyone is bored with it. I already responded to you, lovelysilence, and I really don't get awp's point.

So I could only criticize Slider for being lazy and ignorant if I included an mp3 I wrote and said, "BAM! SUCK ON THAT GROOVE, YOU DAMN NOOB! Know where it came from? My killer technique. I pity the foo who has to use loops."? :rolleyes: Nonsense. Ignorance and laziness is ignorance and laziness. If I were to walk across a bridge in a park and it were to collapse and I were to sprain my ankle, would the engineer who it turns out didnt really get his degree have a point if he said, "Well, why don't you show me a bridge you've built thats any better? Oh, you haven't built any bridges? Well, than please refrain from criticizing my work."

And that's all for me in this boring thread. Feel free to "get the last word" because I won't be responding here any more.

AndyFinkenstadt
05-17-2005, 12:49 PM
Actually I found the description of how to build up a drum part informative. I too have stayed away from building my own, since my own inability to PLAY drums (lacking 4-way coordination) led me to think that I could never write my own parts, really. I'm still considering buying Stylus RMX with some add-on for "accoustic" music (being a church musician, I'd find it hard to play a techno-remix of BE NOT AFRAID for liturgy :) ), to save myself the TIME of composing the parts myself; but I do see the advantage of learning how to write my own.

For the last year or so I've been listening intently to music that I enjoy to hear the various instruments, and recently even the percussion. "Real" drum parts rarely play the same line twice the same way, there's always some variation.... but it is almost always composed of the same general beat during any one song. 1...3... 1..&3... , and so on.

andy

drew
05-17-2005, 01:41 PM
And that's all for me in this boring thread. Feel free to "get the last word" because I won't be responding here any more.


Great, thank you. It is precisely this type of thread that ruins a forum. I feel badly for the person that asked for some simple advice and this is what he got. You should be ashamed of yourself.

awpmusic
05-17-2005, 02:20 PM
Great, thank you. It is precisely this type of thread that ruins a forum. I feel badly for the person that asked for some simple advice and this is what he got. You should be ashamed of yourself.


I can't agree more - we're here to help each other - and we all need help sometimes - we are all learning every day - at least I am - the day I stop learning - I'll just stop! I don't want to make this personal but I've looked at all of 'Composer' posts on the forum - and they are all in a superior tone - I don't like that - we want this forum to be a friendly place - at least I do - where anyone - at any level can ask for help or advice - without fear of being ridiculed.

Composer
05-17-2005, 03:05 PM
I can't agree more - we're here to help each other - and we all need help sometimes - we are all learning every day - at least I am - the day I stop learning - I'll just stop! I don't want to make this personal but I've looked at all of 'Composer' posts on the forum - and they are all in a superior tone - I don't like that - we want this forum to be a friendly place - at least I do - where anyone - at any level can ask for help or advice - without fear of being ridiculed.

Well, I lied. I am going to respond again. All of my posts are superior in tone you say? Pray tell, sir, give one example outside of this thread? I don't have many posts here at all.

The first two posts I made were in "Ram or GHZ" where I was asking Doug if my G5 was enough to handle Platinum.

Then I posted an agreement with some one that I think Silver should include all articulations but not be chromatically sampled.

Then i told some one looking for solo platinum demos to search NS because I heard a nice demo there.

Next, I made four posts asking for the pro discounts to be extended.

I thanked Doug in his announcement for extending the discounts.

I then asked a question about release trails.

I made two posts saying I thought Muse Receptor was a waste of money when you could buy a computer that was more powerful for only slightly more.

I then asked a question about reverb.

I then told some one who wanted the mod wheel to control U/D bowings that he should look into SISS if EWQLSO couldn't do that.

I then made two posts speculating on what orchestra was sampled for EWQLSO.

I made eight posts asking about the EIS theory system.

I asked about the full steinway that would be included in Gold and how it was different from the one in Silver.

I made two posts helping some one with ear training (he later pm'd me out of the blue thanking me for that help).

I made a joke about a title of a thread looking "cool and hip" because the author said "wit' instead of "with.

I agreed with some one that I wish the discounts would last longer because I couldn't buy them until July.

Four posts telling some one I thought their money would be better spent not buying GPO unless they use Finale.

Ten posts telling a lazy simpleton to get off his ass and work if he wants to be a musician, because nothing in life comes from laziness. A few of these posts were defending my position of "knowledge is power" against the defenders of "eh, loops are faster and the simpsons are about to come on, anyway"

I then made a post welcoming some one to the forum.

I told Doug I thought most people confused QL and EW.


So, you are either an idiot or a liar. I suspect both.

And you can take the fairy train back to the lollipop land of carebears, drew. I was rude because I thought Slider needed some one to be rude to him. I stand by that, and your but-the-wittle-kid-just-wanted-help-crybaby fest won't change my position either, even if everyone turns against me.

PaulR
05-17-2005, 03:13 PM
Ten posts telling a lazy simpleton to get off his ass and work if he wants to be a musician, because nothing in life comes from laziness. A few of these posts were defending my position of "knowledge is power" against the defenders of "eh, loops are faster and the simpsons are about to come on, anyway"


Hey Composer - how are things in Mid West? :D

I'm the laziest person you could ever meet - I have a degree in it! So kill me like the mangy curr I am! :p :D

MakeANote
05-17-2005, 07:52 PM
Sooooo Slider. Has all that helped? If you're after a sure fire - groove making MIDI editable VST, I have used Steinberg's Groove Agent. Lots of styles with MIDI output data that you can edit. 24-bit drum samples, hundreds of grooves and fills. A great piece of software if you need a drum line in a hurry.

Despite the flack that Composer has had directed towards himself, I do believe he has a point in that, while some software applications are making music-making faster, I don't believe they are necessarily making musicians better.

In saying that, however, Slider, if you are going to go the way of a MIDI-generating Drum-Groove Editable plug-in, really take the time to learn how the rhythms were put together, learn how the styles are formed, listen to lots of music and really submerge yourself in hearing how music works.

Ian
P.S. Has anyone got the music for 4'33"? I want to do a mock-up for the demo competition.

DallasComposer
05-17-2005, 08:28 PM
I have to admit that it’s been bugging me, I read all threads here and tried to restrain,
I broke down and added some and made some half – barked comments here and there, but really what’s been eating at me is an old saying I remember, ‘there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers’ A stupid answer means, when someone asks a question
they are showing a desire to learn and are willing to open up and ask it, you then shoot them down with criticism, in a way belittle them, thus they may be afraid to ask again.
I know, I used to be a teacher. Even I in a way felt, wow, I better be careful what I ask in here, but then again I have enough confidence in what I do, I’ll be ok. Going back to the beginning, he (or she) was just asking a question. Period. The fact they are trying to make music is good in my book, at least they aren’t on the street selling crack. Should they try
and learn more, sure, but by asking it was a start. Do some of us need a kick in the behind to get ‘learning’ sure. He was just asking. Steer them, don’t direct them.

And one last point, all of this is being hosted by a very gracious company who’s goal is to provide the best products (and they do!) and as a business earn a profit. There are a lot of great products they make to help us out here. Even us ‘true composers’

Sorry, I still think that comment is funny ‘true composers’, I’ll get over it.

So slider, come on, write them songs!

I’m hungry.
Eat.

Composer
05-17-2005, 09:16 PM
Slider has not been online since Saturday - 10 minutes after he made this thread! He obviously doesn't care about it and neither should we. Let's let it die shall we? I said that many posts ago, but people like lovelysilence and awpmusic have to keep harping on "you were rather rude you know? You have always been unhelpful and arrogant, down to every last post." Who was I rude to I ask you? The person who hasn't read any of the replies?

Blazinghammer
05-17-2005, 09:55 PM
Hello All,

I'm a neutral observer in all this. I can't help but put myself in Slider's shoes. The guy pops in for some advice about loop programs, shares a bit about his background and gear and hopes for some helpful input.

Wow.

I would feel highly insulted and berated by the "advice" given here. There's a little phrase in the Good Book that says, "Speak the truth in love". Now that's timeless advice.

I also had a band leader "push" me with berating and insulting words. Did it spur me on to become a better player? On the contrary, it lowered my confidence, and made me question my even being there. I'd say he accomplished pretty much the exact opposite of what he set out to do.

I am an elementary school teacher. I'll tell you firsthand, the sure way to make a child fail is to berate and insult. Want to see him succeed? Three things...encourage, encourage, encourage. Nothing like seeing a kid light up when you focus on his success and use it as a springboard to work on his deficiencies.

The Book also states, "Sweetness of speech increases learning".

I hope Slider can look past the "stuff" and realize that his goals and aspirations (and his choice of means to get there) are just as important as any of ours.

Sincerely,

Composer
05-17-2005, 11:44 PM
I think part of the reason all of you think I was being so rude is because you were reading responses that I made to Brahms and Liszt. Well, he was banned and all his posts deleted (and then he threw a tantrum on NS about this forum). So, I suppose it looked like I kept coming back and belittling Slider out of the blue. How on earth the late comers to this thread didn't notice I was responding to comments that weren't made, I don't know. And you make some good points, Blazinghammer, though I would also refresh your memory of Romans 12:6 and Christ's Parable of the Talents to see the other side. And we all know Jesus and Paul (especially) didn't always use the most kind of words when they thought the opposite necessary. ;)

Now, yet again I will remind all of the people who keep responding with stuff like "Oh my heavens! Composer is berating that poor innocent soul!" that Slider hasn't been online since Saturday, and very likely has forgotten these forums even exist. We know that people sometimes start topics and then dissapear forever, and I suspect this is one of those cases. So, until he responds with either a "thanks for the book recommendations" or "shove it, you grumpy coot!" I suggest we let the thread die.

awpmusic
05-18-2005, 01:46 AM
You are so angry Composer - it comes out in every line you write - why not channel your energy into writing music - you do do that don't you? Instead of chasing away someone who one day will make music - we might just never hear it now. And because he hasn't responded to your 'helpful' answers - how do you know he hasn't been lurking?

lovelysilence
05-18-2005, 02:58 AM
I suggest if they aren't in place already, there be some rules installed on how to interact on the forum regarding foul language (i.e. the 7 FCC forbidden words and calling names), courtesy and well-mannered behaviour i.e. modesty, selflessness, sincerity, .. vs. out-of-place statements, taking things personal, brutality, ... This begins to sound like a Jedi course. And i thought this was a forum for people interested in music creation and technology.

Die this thread must, indeed.

lil-man
05-18-2005, 08:53 AM
I guess that I will put my two cents in on this as well. I know that I will be opening myself up to criticism, but I am ok with that.

I consider myself a true composer...in the deepest definition of the term. I am NOT formally trained in composition, orchestration, theory, harmony or the like. Yet, I consider myself a true composer. :D

To compose is (as defined by Webster) "to form by uniting parts". I do that and more...I do it for the love of it. I create and COMPOSE for the sake of creating my art. THAT in my opinion makes a true composer. Am I any less of a composer because I lack the training that, seemingly, most of you have? I don't think so. Yet, this untrained composer (myself) is willing to post his demos on this forum...for what? For the love of the art...for the love of the creation. No matter what my training.

Slider posted: "I'm sort of "all about chords and melody"

To me, that says that there is some form of structure to his "hundreds of songs". Perhaps he is using only the tools and knowledge available to him at this given moment. The fact that Slider said that he wanted to have a "better band" shows that he has learned enough of himself to actually "listen" to his art, and want to improve on it...and gain better tools. I was once where Slider was. His tool is Yamaha, mine was Casio. What a thrill it was to hear my multi-timbral "masterpiece" come to life before my ears! Was I any less of a composer? No. I loved where I was at, at that point in my life, and continued from there.

It seems as though Composer has missed one vital element about Slider. That element is that Slider is STILL doing it. He is still creating music. While working with drum and bass grooves, Slider is STILL learning what works for his style of music and what doesn't. Perhaps Slider has not realized it himself. He is learning...because he is DOING. Just because someone comes to the art of composing from a rudimentary and untrained background, do not chastise us and say we are not true composers...sometimes we are the ONLY true composers, for we still do it for the love of the art...not the rules.

Bravo Slider! Continue, for the path leads to knowledge!

I think a better book for Slider would be:
Art and Fear - David Bayles & Ted Orland
Art and Fear (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0961454733/qid=1116431360/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-1231577-0830237?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Doug Rogers
05-18-2005, 09:09 AM
We appreciate open and honest debate here, but please have respect for each other without the personal insults - that doesn't achieve anything except frighten those off that may have something constructive to say.

- Doug

Sean R. Beeson
05-18-2005, 09:09 AM
[QUOTE=lil-man]we still do it for the love of the art...QUOTE]

Very well said. Enjoy music :) All you need is passion and love for your art.

Sean

lovelysilence
05-18-2005, 04:00 PM
I cannot agree more. Thanks Doug.

Composer
05-18-2005, 05:28 PM
hehe :p

At first I was interested in the thread when there was a good debate, then annoyed when the carebears and the vultures came in, then I started to get bored (as you can see from the two or three posts I made asking to end this because it was getting old), but now I am actually amused again! What I find funny is that with my responses to Brahms&Liszt deleted, there is only the first reply I made to upset people, and it really is in no way critical or rude enough to justify a five page thread, but you people keep harping on and on (even if I don't respond) about how terribly, terribly rude I was, and about how this behavior simply cannot continue (it reminds me of something in Alice in Wonderland). Six days after my first reply there are actually still people responding to the thread for the first time about it. There is little doubt in my mind that people like lovelysilence (the sky is falling! the sky is falling!) will drag this thing out till June, and I bet awp's lies about me will continue to get more absurd as it progresses. First he said I have a "tone of superiority" in all my posts on soundsonline, I showed that to be a lie, so next he said there was anger in "every line I write", which simply isn't true if you look over my posts. I suspect by week three his lies will have progressed to "in every word you write I feel the presence of a deranged mad man on the verge of doing something very, very scary. I've been looking over your posts here, and I really do believe, Composer, that you need to check yourself into some sort of institution."

Really, if you read the thread over from the very beginning it comes across as quite silly, and the people who look the most ridiculous are the flying carebear vultures who emerge toward the end. And to be completely honest with you people, what have any of you given Slider? The only two people who actually gave him anything were Todd K (program recommendations) and me (book recommendations and some pointers on how to start writing his own bass and drum grooves). All you people have done is harp on and on like the harpies of Harpathea about the two paragraphs following my book recommendations. Not to mention who are you all to say I'm being rude to Slider? Shouldn't he decide that? Has he responded saying that he's been offended? No. So, its really quite a lot of nonsense to say that I've offended him or hurt his feelings.

So, if you are all going to drag this thing out you might as well give Slider some advice (since you're all looking after his best interest right??), and I too might as well restate my points to the as of right now "imaginary author" wanting help.

Slider has said he cannot compose drum and bass grooves.

Slider does not care to learn to compose drum and bass grooves, he wants a program to do it for him.

Composer comes in and says (and granted rather brashly) "Stop being such a lazy simpleton! Learning music is an adventure! Why let a program steal that from you? Why rely musically on grooves written by other people? If you can spend the time to learn a program like RMX, you can spend the time to learn to write your own grooves. So, get off your ass and do it! Here are some book recommendations, and here are a few pointers to get you started making grooves. Not to mention, you can't be about "chords and melody" if you can't control what the bass is doing. Writing good counterpoint in the bass can enhance your melodies, and the inversion of the chord is determined by the bass. Knowledge is power. Become the best musician you can! To say to yourself 'I cannot write bass and drum grooves and I don't want to learn and that's that!' is to do yourself a grave disservice."

Slider can either continue down the path of ignorance and laziness, or he can learn how to write his own drum and bass grooves and start down the path of knowledge and enlightenment.

So, that is my point in a nutshell. I'm not sure what point you other people are trying to make besides (hand over mouth) umm umm umm umm umm umm, he called him a name! And as I already said, I hardly think you can say that he's been offended by what I said when he hasn't posted even one reply. If we're doing that sort of thing I could say that he found my advice terribly helpful, had a change in heart, and has enrolled in an online arranging course.

Now! Carebears assemble! To the rescue of the helpless! And remember, you're the ones who keep dragging this very tired thread on.

bloombaber
05-19-2005, 12:12 PM
Maybe I've been numbed by Yahoo's political message boards, but I didn't find Composer's initial post to be at all rude. As a sassy, constructive, playfully-worded kick in the pants, it kinda made me smile. (I especially enjoyed the later "BAM! Suck on this groove, you Noob.") Unfortunately, as he has tried to defend himself, things have spiralled and ballooned and exploded and kaploweed to the point where Doug has to step in and say "If I have to tell you to settle down one more time, I AM STOPPING THIS CAR!"

As someone who learned (inasmuch as I HAVE learned) to arrange songs by dissecting the Beatles in college, I echo Composer's advice. (Not a clean delay kind of echo; I'm choosing to filter out a bunch around 500Hz.) It doesn't necessarily disqualify you from the Legion of Real Composers (LRC) if you compose from loops, but I believe you will find the results more gratifying if you construct from smaller building blocks. Notes rather than prerecorded bars. You don't have to be Weather Report. Listen to the bass line of "With or Without You." The drums on "Start Me Up." These are not viruoso parts, but they're integral parts of unforgettable songs.

Hey, we're all just trying to make something that sounds good to our own ears. Chances are, if Slider buys a software thingy that can do what he wants it to, eventually he will feel as constrained by it as he does now with his cheesy keyboard, and will want even more control, even more quality. Eventually, if he keeps at it, he'll want to do what Composer suggests. As artists, we all have to push ourselves to "think outside the box."

I'm not taking sides. (Well, maybe a little.) I think this has been a big misunderstanding. If we were all in a room talking about this, vocal inflections would reveal the lovingly supportive intent of things that seem harsh when read cold; in the absence of that human articulation, we are left to read into posts what we assume the world thinks of us.

So you see, there are things that you just can't do on a computer. :)

lovelysilence
05-19-2005, 03:50 PM
And for the very reason you can't see body language in a forum, i think it's in everybody's interest to use as little hard or offensive language as possible. :)
To me this thread isn't about loops or samples anymore, you and Composer have a point there by the way, to me it's about courtesy and direct but polite communication.

ToddK
05-19-2005, 05:40 PM
Do you think Dianne Warren deliberates over how to make the kick part mesh with the bass? Does Quincy tell the Brothers Johnson how to play their axes or does he just give them the framework and let them do their thing? END QUOTE


You are mixing "composing" and "Production" Two different things.
Your whole post totally mixes and confuses these two things horribly.

I think Diane Warren is a crappy composer. She just sells alot of songs.

That doesnt make you a great composer.

Of course Diane doesnt worry about the kick drum. She's not a producer
or an engineer.

So what the heck are you talking about??? :confused:

AndyFinkenstadt
05-19-2005, 08:18 PM
wrote only in the key of G Flat because it was easier to hit the black keys...


So I tried that tonight. I had to cheat and hit the B natural and F-natural (C-flat and G-double-flat technically :) ) and the D-natural for some variance ... it actually didn't sound too bad, and wasn't that hard to do, either. Eb-minor is an OKAY key, as far as I'm concerned. :)

DallasComposer
05-20-2005, 10:11 AM
His full name is spelled Krzysztof Penderecki :)

http://www.penderecki.de/

This has nothing to do with anything in this thread I suppose but I just drank a strong cup-o-joe and me fingers feel like typing :D

I came from a rock-n-roll background and when I was in college trying to become an 'educ-ma-cated' musician/composer I was really blown away at all there was to learn and how many of the other people in school had an advantage over me 'cause they had been taking piano, violin (etc) lessons since before they were born and played in orchestra's etc. I just played guitar and rocked out. Any hoot point is, I had digested a few years already of good ole theory, structural analysis etc and then took a special class in 'contemporary music' and our teacher exposed us to Penderecki, Phillip Glass, Iannis Xenakis etc. all of whom approach their compositional process completely different. And all are very good, valid composers who have helped shape the musical landscape for all of us. It was then I learned to open my musical mind to all kinds of styles and committed myself (not to an asylum :) ) to pursue a study of all kinds of music and apply it to my own. In fact just recently I was called to do a short piece for an animation in which the main composer was struggling to do but alas he knew I had the background and musical understanding to do this one section for him (I was sub-contracted) and in fact I drew on my knowledge of Penderecki (and got my EWQLSO just in time and it had the orchestral FX I needed) to complete it. I posted it here, but most think it's noise LOL It's not a stand alone composition but an underscore. But I was able to do it because I chose to study many different styles and learn, learn, learn and never discount a style because I don’t like it, someday I may be called upon to write something in that style.

I have to admit I am surprised sometimes at how many composers I talk to who limited themselves and are just trying to write that next James Horner/John Williams big score, which hey is cool, but what if the movie is placed in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s and the director wants something to be say in the style of Carl Orff?

Point is of all my rambling: (which I lost now :) ) Learn, expose yourself, make yourself diverse. I have no idea if this relates anything to this thread.

I think seeing that name Penderecki triggered off my brain.

I’ll drink de-caf next time before I come in here.

dh

DallasComposer
05-20-2005, 10:48 AM
Nah .. I was just poking fun, no biggie. I just happen to have a Penderecki CD right here so I could spell it :) , ya know he also wrote more traditional stuff too which is great. I agree with "contemporary classical" bag for 20th century is more interesting in technique then in listening for sure, but it was good to get exposed to it and learn from it, another trick in the bag to use when needed. This has nothing to do with anything but one of my fav's is Ryuichi Sakamoto because he has done everything from techo, hip-hop, ethnic to classical film scores, I can hear so many styles and techniques in his music, he's amazing!

That was a great story about the director. Unfortunately I have had to learn the hard way to put aside my thinking that 'how dare anyone dictate how I write' when I remember that he/she signs my paycheck LOL :rolleyes:

dh

Hardy Heern
05-21-2005, 11:47 AM
If not, then would you suggest I invest in something like Band-In-A-Box to generate MIDI styles/grooves (they've got quite a few good ones now), bring them into [my recently purchased] Sonar, and then buy EW stuff like "Drumkit From Hell" and "QL Guitar & Bass" to be the sound libraries played *by* the B-I-A-B MIDI groove *in* Sonar?

I'm just trying to end up with highest-quality instrument sounds, playing already-composed (and better-than-Yamaha-AutoAccompaniment) rhythm section grooves - BUT with the individual-note editability of MIDI, if I feel it needs it. Thanks.

- Slider[/QUOTE]

Band in a box will provide just what you want and will allow you to tweak its output either internally or by exporting to your favourite sequencer. Here you can change the output slightly or dramatically to suit.

It's no worse than the classical artists who used all sorts of projectors and geometric machines to ease their task.

Just keep quiet about it and no one will be any the wiser!! :)

Frank