Pencil Paper vs. technology thread

[dcoscina]

Hey guys, check this ongoing thread about this age old debate in the context of film scoring:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.asp?threadID=34156&forumID=1&pageID=1#bottom

[josejherring]

I read through some of it. Same old debate. 20/20 hindsight.

Look there was plenty of crap in the old days believe me. It just didn't last.


As far as paper and pencil are concerned I personally do both. I find that some cues are hard to compose on paper and some are hard to compose with sequencers. It's whatever gets the jobs done and I don't think there's a composer out there that sticks to just one method unless they absolutely can't write music in which case then their only option is a sequencer.

[TheVamp]

Like I said before, it doesn't matter what method you use, all that matters is what comes out of the speakers.

[dcoscina]

Like I said before, it doesn't matter what method you use, all that matters is what comes out of the speakers.

I think it's more a time issue in many cases and director musical awareness. I do still believe a solid musical education (either university or self-taught with books on orchestration, harmony, and counterpoint) are required when composing for acoustic instruments. But I also maintain knowing the samples you're dealing with when composing a mock-up or demo orchestral piece. Sampled libraries have made significant strides towards realism but there are still things I wouldn't do on an orchestral lib that I would do when writing for real orchestra because some articulations can reveal more than others.

With things like the run simulator, we can now do nice glissandi and quick flourishes. I've heard so many terrible scores for t.v. ads where some guy was using a basic GM set and had string runs all over or wind runs that sounded terrible. My feeling is that I try to make my sampled music sound as realistic and organic as possible. If I'm sketching out a piece that will be played by real musicians, I'll often ignore the sonic realism in favor of making sure the music is solid. But if I'm working up a demo than I have to consider both sonic realism and musicality. Concurently, if I don't have a sample that sounds good enough or doesn't behave in a way that doesn't convince me it's real enough, I'll change the musical line or else find another sample to play it. luckily, with most libs, this doesn't happen much. But I do hear examples where the music content is lovely but the way the samples were used betray their electronic origins.

I think most Hollywood composers probably do have more chops than we know of. The time constraints do straightjacket them into producing scores that aren't as inspired as those written 10 or 20 years ago. That said, I wouldn't put guys like Brian Tyler or John Ottman up against Elliot Goldenthal or even younger fellas like Ed Shearmur or Michael Giacchino that latter three who have had significant musical education and aren't just guys with lots of MIDI toys ar their disposal.

I know the thread on the Film Score Monthly board began out of a disdain for MI:3 but I am a Giacchino fan and think he's got talent and potential. He's not at JOhn Williams status (yet) but he may get there after more experience and high profile films such as MI:3 and The Incredibles.

[TheVamp]

Ya know, dude. I have to agree 100% with what ya just said there. Right down to your endorsement of Giacchino.
I can't stand the crap that his guy gets poured on him in some film music circles (esp. FSM).
As I've said in other posts, I've been a fan of his since Medal of Honor and, personally, I'm following his career with great interest (whoa, unintentially sounded like Palpatine, there! :o ).
Seriously, I haven't felt this way about a composer in a long time. It reminds me of the heady days in the 80s when almost every trip to Tower Records or Footlight Records yielded another gem by Williams, Goldsmith, Barry or Horner. Every time I see Giacchino's name in the credits, I fire up my browser and hunt down the CD (after all, Footlight's store is gone now :( .)
As to the other part of your post, I think you hit it on the head when you said that one of the key elements is time and training. Reminds me of the old adage with regards to producing any creative endeavor: "Time, Quality, Money... pick any two."
I also agree that as cool as the EWQLSO library is, it cannot replace the power and energy of a real orchestra... yet. I truly do believe, though, that eventually someone will come up with some kind of way to mimic an orchestra flawlessly (look how far we've come in the last decade alone)! But until then, there's no substitute for the sonic forces that a real orchestra can conjure playing the music of a talented composer.

[dcoscina]

Thanks Vamp. Yeah, I really do like Giacchino. Don't be too hard on FSM. I've reviewed most of Giacchino's efforts for the online magazine and they've been very positive reviews. I think a Star Trek Giacchino score would be great. And from all of the video interviews and podcasts from LOST I've heard, this guy has a very down-to-earth attitude. He's very easy going and doesn't take himself seriously. That lack of pretention makes him even more likeable.

I have SWON and it's amazing. His Japanese music is awesome and I personally would have like to hear his Last Samurai version over Zimmer's.

As for sample libs, yes, they have come so far. And I've heard guys do frankly outstanding things with EWQLSO and even moreso with EWQLSC. Time is the real key element whether it's in the composing stage or orchestration or taking time to really work these samples out to make them sound as realistic as possible. I have heard some frankly outstanding works produced by various composers on this board and that raises the bar for me to try harder. Guy Theaker's Silver Pro piece from a while back employed amazing modernist textures and I thought "wow, here's a guy who really knows how to orchestrate". Some of his passages sounded as good as Williams' seminal CEOT3K material. So I know that East West is on the cutting edge. I get frustrated that I myself don't have enough time to really exploit these sounds as much as possible because of other life responsibilities. But luckily I own the libs so I can chip away at pieces I'm working on. And I'm dying to learn more about Qcontrol.

As for writing, I do maintain that writing complex pieces or pointillistic pieces is far easier to do when dealing with notation programs or traditional pen and paper. It's easier to "freeze" moments and finesse them more than when the sequencer metronome is steadily clicking away at a constant tempo. And accelerandos can sound pretty bad when someone dials up the sequencer tempo without employing the correct phrasing to match the tempo change.

Anyhow, it's a great time to live in if you're a composer because there are so many tools with which to hear one's music. I do wonder if all this readily available technology is stymying our desire to have our works eventually played by real orchestras or chamber groups?

Myself, I've been writing for smaller groups in the hope that I could get a community group or smaller group of professionals together to realize some of my efforts.

I wonder if anyone else thinks about this?

-Dave

[TheVamp]

I guess you're right about FSM, after all I'm a subscriber! Now, I'm gonna have to look at the past online issues and reread you articles, dude.
I agree a Giacchino Star Trek score would be great. Hope he gets to write for the Klingons!
I got SWON as well, and agree about the Japanese writing. When it was announced that Giacchino wouldn't be doing Medal of Honor: Rising Sun I was upset that I would never get to hear his treatment of the Imperial Japanese Forces after he had given the Nazis such a memorable theme. Glad he got to work on SWON and write such wonderful music for them.
I really can't speak from experience about pencil and paper vs. technology 'cause I'm a "hummer" myself, though I suspect you're right, of course. I am greatful for libraries like EWQLSO though, 'cause, when I do get my hands on it, I'll be able to realize some of the music that's been going on in my head!
I'll tell you one thing though, my limited experience with trying to realize my music had certainly given me a greater appreciation of my favorite composers. Making good music is hard! My hat's off to the guys that succeed.

[TheVamp]

Holy crap! You know what I just realized? You wrote "The Bell Haunting" that I just downloaded to my iPod last Friday!
I know I told you this at the time, but I really liked it, dude! Especially those glisses at the end.
So how'd you do it? Did you use pencil and paper? Some kind of notation program? Sequencing? How long did it take? Inquiring Vamps want to know!

[dcoscina]

Holy crap! You know what I just realized? You wrote "The Bell Haunting" that I just downloaded to my iPod last Friday!
I know I told you this at the time, but I really liked it, dude! Especially those glisses at the end.
So how'd you do it? Did you use pencil and paper? Some kind of notation program? Sequencing? How long did it take? Inquiring Vamps want to know!

Um, now I'm going to appear to be a hypocrite but I actually just wrote that in Sonar. :o
Because the piece emphasized texture over traditional melody and harmony, I could hear in my head what I wanted to go for and just played it out. Of course I edited it quite extensively, taking out notes and some parts to make it sound better. The gliss. at the end is a combination of the cello upward glide (slow one) and 6 French Horns also with a shorter upward gliss. I added some tam tam rolls, trombone and trumpet muted fluttertongue clusters (clusters are easy to write as it only involves played a series of notes a semi-tone apart).

Glad you liked the piece. I'm working on the second part which is a little hard to hear in my head so I've been notating it on Overture. It's more violent, like parts of The Shining or Alien3. I'll post it once I have composed more of this section.

[tango9jeff]

I personally Think a good deal of the notation people show alot more hostility towards people who write mainly by *click Track* In pro tools or by MIDI input by hand because there a little upset of how hard they worked to be able to do it and other people can skip in with good timing and do what they do in half the time *give or take the same quality in writing*. I think thats the biggest kicker. I personally use no notation but I am Trained in Music theory/harmony and music reading ability. The fact is sheet music plain bores me. I have finale and hardly ever use the thing. I do believe in studying score sheets to understand what some great scores did to achieve there results. I will start using finale more to practice a good mixture of the 2 ways. I have my own step by step process of writing music for film/games and have done by best to keep it fluent in theory as well.

So all in all there's 2 types of people. The people with reason and a mathmatical type of logic, and the creative people who perfer to write off more freedom. If you don't know the notes on the keyboard and why things work and don't work then I'd say you have a problem. Its the final emotional product of the music that really matters but its funny to take notice that the people who know the most about structure and theory seem to write the best emotional songs, thats because they understand the way things work. If you want to be a serious composer I think it should be your natural desire to use a bit of both and improve on all aspects. My dad always said if your going to love something love it with all your heart and do it right!

[TheVamp]

I agree with both of you.
I'm a hobbyist myself with no formal musical training so libraries like the EWQLSO are a great boon to me. I have to play things out and audition them out loud. I mean, I can hear the music in my head, it's just getting that same music to come out of the speakers that's the problem, lol. :o
As of right now, I don't even use MIDI. It's just me, my Mac, my MBox and my Korg Triton Extreme.
You should see the guys down at Sam Ash when I tell them I don't use MIDI, they look at me like I'm some sort of throwback. :rolleyes:
I can't wait to get my hands on the EWQLSO Gold bundle. I'm excited to start working with samples and MIDI. I'm hoping that I'll also be able to convert the MIDI info to some kind of notation so that I can look at it and maybe learn as I go...
Oh, and Dave, I can't wait to hear the rest of "The Bell Haunting". Alien 3 is one of my favorite scores.

[dcoscina]

Jeff, I do believe you have hit the nail on the head. notation programs do take a LOT longer to compose in and sometimes inspiration goes away when you're dealing with the interface, I use Overture and it's pretty fast. Finale to me is the antithesis of music making. slow, convoluted and just cryptic. Composer friends of mine love it though.

I often use Sonar more than not though because, like you say, I can capture ideas faster. However, I still do a lot of editing in the notation editor because I actually like seeing everything lined up. for overall strcture, I like to be able to visualise it. And Sonar is much better (at the moment) at interpretting and transcribing MIDI played things. However, I do find Overture better for writing many meter changes, tempo changes, and dense tuplet figures. That's partly becaused I have a weighted controller and doing any passages that are fast is hard to accomplish in realtime.

Like you Jeff, I have formal music background so I always have that on my mind when I'm composing in realtime. how long should I make that flute or horn line since both use a lot of wind? what range is best for an oboe to get a clear, distinct sound? why will I always favor closed horn chords and more open low string voicings? do I make the best grilled cheese soundwichs or what? Oops, sorry. That darn Air Miles ad again.

Anyhow, I think composers like Elliot Goldenthal or even us (yep, I'm being arrogant and putting us into the same class ;)) who have had formal experience unconsciously apply what we've learned to MIDI compositions. That's why I continue to stress music education and orchestration.

For those who don't have the financial means to do so, there's a couple really inexpensive ways to learn more about the orchestra.

1/ go to live concerts. Look at what the leading section is doing when they're playing. Take note of what the composer did with balance, harmonic voicings and such. Many cities have community groups. It's important to see these too because you'll see what mid-range players can handle. I saw Rachmaninov's 2nd Symphony performed by the Mississauga Symphony Orchestra a few years back and the horn section had had it by the third mvmt. Such a long piece combined with a lot of horn playing rendered the section pretty useless by the final mvmt (except for the principle player who was still good).

2/ Public library- take out conductor's scores and the accompanying CD and look at what the composer was doing. Even those with redimentry music reading skills can at least appreciate on a graphic level the amount of notes, the density and which instruments are playing together at certain places.

3/ if you can, get a small group to play your music. I learned more about orchestration when I had student groups and small groups play my music. Books on orchestration are still valuable as I referred to it when I wanted to see how many stops a cellist could play since I only had one at my disposal for a small film score I wrote back in the late '90s. I did a demo on an old Roland M-SE1 string module taking in techniques endemic to that instrument. the real cellist remarked on how realistic my demo sounded because I adhered to all of the rules that apply to a cello. It was a nice compliment and I didn't have the most ultra-realistic samples at the time.

[chocothrax]

The average age of FSM readers seems to be like 60. They whine about how great the past was but soon they'll be dead so there is an upside.

[dcoscina]

The average age of FSM readers seems to be like 60. They whine about how great the past was but soon they'll be dead so there is an upside.

Nice. I actually think it's pretty varied. I know sentimentality takes over for things written in the past but I do think there are fewer original voices in Hollywood these days. Composers who I think are good composers (age in parenthesis):

John Williams (74)
Howard Shore (59)
Alan Silvestri (56)
Elliot Goldenthal (52)
Danny Elfman (53)
Gabriel Yared (56)
Basil Poledouris (61)
Thomas Newman (49)
James Newton Howard (55)
James Horner (53) * unoriginal but has chops
Bruce Broughton (62)
John Barry (73) * hasn't done much recently though

Notice the age??? No one under 40. Mind you, film scoring is a hard industry to get into and most well known composers of yesteryear cut their teeth on t.v., radio or concert hall before moving into the film score medium which explains why these guys are so old.

Some up-and-comers that look promising are:

Michael Giacchino (mid 30s)
Marco Beltrami (39)
Ed Shearmur (39)
Jon Powell (early 40s)
David Coscina (37) * just kidding....sort of.

[chocothrax]

I'm not sure why you are listing the composers ages? I was on a site once which has a sort of photo album of John Williams since he was a small kid up until today, was pretty interesting.

[dcoscina]

I'm not sure why you are listing the composers ages? I was on a site once which has a sort of photo album of John Williams since he was a small kid up until today, was pretty interesting.

To show how most of the industry's top composers are well into their 50s or 60s. We don't have that many proficient composers under 50 which is sad.

[TheVamp]

2/ Public library- take out conductor's scores and the accompanying CD and look at what the composer was doing. Even those with redimentry music reading skills can at least appreciate on a graphic level the amount of notes, the density and which instruments are playing together at certain places.
Dude, that is an excellent idea. While I can't sight read music I can follow along. Why didn't I think of this? And I live in NY, too! This should be no problem! I'm an idiot! :o

[drew]

To show how most of the industry's top composers are well into their 50s or 60s. We don't have that many proficient composers under 50 which is sad.

Really?? So Harry Gregson-Williams, John Ottman, Brian Tyler, Christophe Beck, Mychael Danna, Ed Shearmur and Dario Marianelli(to name a few under 50), aren't proficient composers?

The composers you listed were successful film composers well before they turned 50. You make it sound like they didn't write anything when they were younger.

And how can you leave Mark Isham and Alan Silvestri off your 'old timers' list?

[chocothrax]

To show how most of the industry's top composers are well into their 50s or 60s. We don't have that many proficient composers under 50 which is sad.

Uhhh I already know all of their ages... I find that many do their best work when they are younger.

[josejherring]

Nice. I actually think it's pretty varied. I know sentimentality takes over for things written in the past but I do think there are fewer original voices in Hollywood these days. Composers who I think are good composers (age in parenthesis):

John Williams (74)
Howard Shore (59)
Alan Silvestri (56)
Elliot Goldenthal (52)
Danny Elfman (53)
Gabriel Yared (56)
Basil Poledouris (61)
Thomas Newman (49)
James Newton Howard (55)
James Horner (53) * unoriginal but has chops
Bruce Broughton (62)
John Barry (73) * hasn't done much recently though

Notice the age??? No one under 40. Mind you, film scoring is a hard industry to get into and most well known composers of yesteryear cut their teeth on t.v., radio or concert hall before moving into the film score medium which explains why these guys are so old.

Some up-and-comers that look promising are:

Michael Giacchino (mid 30s)
Marco Beltrami (39)
Ed Shearmur (39)
Jon Powell (early 40s)
David Coscina (37) * just kidding....sort of.

Every one of these are hot composers regarless of age. And btw I think Beltrami is my age. 38. And of the bunch is every bit as genius as any of the older composers. Micheal G. is great too. Every bit as genius as anybody else as well.

It's tough to make those kinds of comparisons. Certainly the younger composers don't have as long as a track record but they are just as good.

But none compare to the stylings of The David Coscina.

Best,

Jose

[dcoscina]

Really?? So Harry Gregson-Williams, John Ottman, Brian Tyler, Christophe Beck, Mychael Danna, Ed Shearmur and Dario Marianelli(to name a few under 50), aren't proficient composers?

The composers you listed were successful film composers well before they turned 50. You make it sound like they didn't write anything when they were younger.

And how can you leave Mark Isham and Alan Silvestri off your 'old timers' list?

um, I did include Silvestri and yes, I almost included Isham because he's done a lot of quality work.

I don't think Ottman or Tyler are proficient composers. I know orchestrators that have complained about sorting out their MIDI messes. Beck is good but not great...yet. I like parts of his Elektra.

Schearmur is also included and think he's very talented. I wish he could be scoring the new Superman because he Sky Captain main theme would have been PERFECT for a superhero theme.

Danna is in his 40s and yes, as a fellow Cannuck I should have included him. Love his score to The Ice Storm.

Rolf Kent has done some good work as has Chris Young but they normally get relagated to scoring genre films.

[chocothrax]

What about the awesome John Debney, he's still in his 40's.

[dcoscina]

What about the awesome John Debney, he's still in his 40's.

Debney's got chops but he's made a career (like Joel McNeely) on sounding like Horner or Williams so there's really little to identify Debney with his own style. I know The Passion was supposedly his breakout score but that sounded like second-rate Last Temptation of Christ with a bigger orchestra.

[chocothrax]

Have you ever heard Debney's Dragonfly score? One of the best finale's i've ever heard is in that. I guess not having a really recognizeable style is considered a bad thing?

[drew]

um, I did include Silvestri and yes, I almost included Isham because he's done a lot of quality work.

I don't think Ottman or Tyler are proficient composers. I know orchestrators that have complained about sorting out their MIDI messes. Beck is good but not great...yet. I like parts of his Elektra.

Schearmur is also included and think he's very talented. I wish he could be scoring the new Superman because he Sky Captain main theme would have been PERFECT for a superhero theme.

Danna is in his 40s and yes, as a fellow Cannuck I should have included him. Love his score to The Ice Storm.

Rolf Kent has done some good work as has Chris Young but they normally get relagated to scoring genre films.

Sorry, I missed Silvestri and Shearmur from your list, but how do you leave out HGW?? Really, I don't give a crap about what orchestrators say, Ottman and Tyler have proven themselves to be quite competent despite what you think. They don't seem to have any problems getting work.

And it still doesn't explain why you think there are few talented or proficient composers under the age of 50. Was JW not in his forties when he wrote the music for Jaws or ET? Was he not proficient then?

Could it be that a lot of composers don't set their sites on becoming film composers early in their musical careers but see themselves as concert composers, as many come from formal conservatory educations that don't necessarily encourage that career path? That training is not geared towards commercial success whereas today it seems everyone wants to make it a business and success is measured merely by Hollywood standards.

Point is, I don't think most film composers ever started out with the goal of being solely a film composer and perhaps the pressure to make a decent living is the major reason they get into the business.

[Daryl]

Point is, I don't think most film composers ever started out with the goal of being solely a film composer and perhaps the pressure to make a decent living is the major reason they get into the business.
Actually I think that there is a lot of truth in this. In the past people learned to be composers and then moved into film or TV. These days a lot of people bypass the "learning to be a composer" stage and that is one reason why a lot of the younger guys don't have the chops. It's not just that they don't yet have the body of work or opportunities, but the fact that they are severely limited in their knowledge about music in general. Obviously this applies to some of the successful composers making a very good living, but I think that some of those have just been lucky.

D

[dcoscina]

I totally agree. I think I mentioned that too. Film scoring is a hard field to get into (even harder these days) and it's no coincidence that most of our beloved composers were in their 40s when they achieved some noteriety. Williams had been scoring fluff comedies and Irwin Allen disaster flicks in the earlier part of his career and in his mid-40s when he scored Jaws and Star Wars.

I think age is a telling point in general when it comes to composing. Aside from Mozart and Mendelssohn, and maybe Prokofiev, most big named classical composers were older when they wrote their best work. Mahler was in his late 40s when I composed The song of the Earth and his 9th Symphony (although I do think he was brilliant by the time he composed his 5th Symphony and Kindertotenlieder), Stravinsky, Beethoven, Bruckner, Wagner, and the list goes on. Point is, unless one falls prey to premature senility, one usually gets better at composition as they get older as this field is a continual learning experience. I do think War of the Worlds is superior in many ways to Star Wars- one because it's more original and bears the stamp of Williams as opposed to Strauss or Holst (don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars). I think Williams could write Star Wars at his age- he just chooses not to.

Goldsmith did some pretty amazing things at in his 40s and while his style was streamlined in later years, health issues and the fact that the poor guy kept getting crappy films to work on didn't help him. I also think he became disechanted with having to compete with all those sound effects and resolved not to write as densely as he had in his earlier career. He said as much after Total Recall which was his last really dynamic, complex score.

[dcoscina]

Could it be that a lot of composers don't set their sites on becoming film composers early in their musical careers but see themselves as concert composers, as many come from formal conservatory educations that don't necessarily encourage that career path? That training is not geared towards commercial success whereas today it seems everyone wants to make it a business and success is measured merely by Hollywood standards.



Definitely! I was looked down upon in composition class when I admitted to loving film scores. My snobby classmates mostly were like that guy in Good Will Hunting who memorized all these obscure ideologies and passed them off as their own (I learned this years later when I kept coming across these ideas in interviews with Boulez, Crumb, Ligeti and Cage). At the time, I only knew Goldsmith, Williams, Horner, the usual suspects in the late '80s and didn't know Alex North, Herrmann, Korngold, Alfred Newman, guys like that whose music had to command respect. If I could go back in time, I would have done my music analysis in my senior year on North's Dragonslayer rather than Stravinsky's Symphony in 3 Movements .

Choco, I haven't heard Dragonfly but I'll try to check it out. Like I said, Debney has chops, no doubt. He knows what he's doing compositionally. And I hope he develops a salient style so we can all say "hey that's John Debney" rather than "hmm, sounds like Williams, might be Horner, not quite sure".