Can YOU compose

[HornMeister]

Since there are people who bash ZImmer for using electronics on his work. Let me ask you all a question. Can YOU compose when the power goes out? Honestly can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper and then wait to have a real orchestra play it?.....didnt think so. Personally I think Zimmer is amazing and I look at it like this. If the technology is there then use it. If its going to make you better then go ahead. And all in all the electronics are still there but you still have to be a COMPOSER to write in the right notes so that eveyrthihng sounds great. A computer can;t orchestrate a 45 min long symphony so stop Bashing him. You going to bash a eye doctor for using a presice laser to cut through a vein instead of his own hands......didnt think so.


Can YOU compose when the power goes out?

[Daryl]

Yes:rolleyes:

D

[mattmann13]

No but I can bake three dozen cookies, three banana cakes and two loaves of bread:eek:

[chocothrax]

A computer can;t orchestrate a 45 min long symphony so stop Bashing him.

No but hired orchestrators could. Orchestrators can work miracles my friend. Look at Clint Mansell and his score for Sahara, it's a good score and sounds like David Arnold because Nicholas Dodd was the orchestrator. Watch the extras on The Lion King as Zimmer plays on his keyboard and then contrast that with the finished music. Did Zimmer fix that up or just send off the midifiles to someone...dunno. :) I can write music if the electricity goes out...if I have a backup generator! Or Nick Dodd chained up in my basement. To quote Danny Elfman in sort of his exact words- A kid and his dog could write great music if he had an orchestrator.

[TheVamp]

If the lights go out in my house... I'm headed to the bedroom with my wife! ;)
Now that's making sweet music!

[waldorf&stadler]

Can YOU compose when the power goes out?

I even cannot compose while the power is still on! :eek:

But then, I love the soundtrack of "The Rock". ;)

[Sherief83]

Anyone with zimmer's tools and connetions and "friends" can do what zimmer is doing and might even surpass him.

[Phantom]

Hans Zimmer... my mentor

The greatest composer in the world

Of course IMO. Everyone is entitled to their own

I look at it this way - no matter how much someone bashes Hans Zimmer on any forum; it can never bother me

I know he is the greatest and in my book it will never change

So no matter what others think about him. Don't worry yourself over their opinions

Take a look at my topic titled Hans Zimmer

[Phantom]

LOL :)

I just noticed you already posted a comment on that topic HornMeister

PS - Pull up another chair my friend :D - another Hi 5

[tchoyy]

Well, I use my accoustic guitar and write a love pop rock music :D

[HornMeister]

Hans Zimmer... my mentor

The greatest composer in the world

Of course IMO. Everyone is entitled to their own

I look at it this way - no matter how much someone bashes Hans Zimmer on any forum; it can never bother me

I know he is the greatest and in my book it will never change

So no matter what others think about him. Don't worry yourself over their opinions

Take a look at my topic titled Hans Zimmer


I feel the same way

just

It erks me

Everyone in the music biz has connections

thats the main way to make it

helping each other out

and his use of electronics is simply amazing

but were cool

[HornMeister]

If the lights go out in my house... I'm headed to the bedroom with my wife! ;)
Now that's making sweet music!


alright
thats awesome for you

lets try and keep this pg:rolleyes:

[HornMeister]

Anyone with zimmer's tools and connetions and "friends" can do what zimmer is doing and might even surpass him.


At the same time

It took skill to get where he is at

He is one of the BIGGEST film composers in the world

you dont just get there with connections

it takes true talent

Im pretty sure Williams has orchestrators for all his music that is on sale at Hal Leonard

[HornMeister]

No but I can bake three dozen cookies, three banana cakes and two loaves of bread:eek:


sounds good maybe we can get to them before the milk goes bad;)

[Michael W]

There a good reasons to bash him or defend him.
If YOU can compose or not has nothing to do with that, you can't compare this.
He can compose no doubt and if he uses only electronics or can orchestrate a real Orchestra (write notes) you can't know because you do not know him. It's all guessing and it's senseless. Like his music or not, you have not to defend yourself for this as it seems a lot of people think they have to.

It's useless to discuss this, as the most Zimmer pro/contra Threads.
Many Zimmer fans/critics have the habit to see only black or white. I think you (HornMeister) made your position. Phantom for example (as another zimmer fan) seems moderate.

[Beach]

Basically I cannot compose without writing note by note in Finale (on a score)!!
And nevertheless I think I will need some helps to use a real orchestra!!:p

But I would try without problem!!


Best,
Roberto

[HornMeister]

There a good reasons to bash him or defend him.
If YOU can compose or not has nothing to do with that, you can't compare this.
He can compose no doubt and if he uses only electronics or can orchestrate a real Orchestra (write notes) you can't know because you do not know him. It's all guessing and it's senseless. Like his music or not, you have not to defend yourself for this as it seems a lot of people think they have to.

It's useless to discuss this, as the most Zimmer pro/contra Threads.
Many Zimmer fans/critics have the habit to see only black or white. I think you (HornMeister) made your position. Phantom for example (as another zimmer fan) seems moderate.


Ahh I see your point but my whole point is that people tend to downgrade his work becuase he uses electronics and because he has "friends" that help him out. He said it himself he doesnt mind having people help him out(and i think thats respectable condering all the praise he gives to other smaller composers not to mention the experience they get) and honestly the score to Batman Begins was incredible and that was him and newton howard.

and believe me i can take criticism but this is a forum and I wanted to see what people had to say

My question is are u a fan of Zimmer??

[Ecliptic]

I'm holding my classical guitar right now and I have music paper, pencil and rubber on the table, my Mac is off (obviously my internet PC is on) and I'm writing a "spanish fancy" for guitar.
Maybe later I'll add some more instruments and I'll do it by the computer (why cross the ocean by a ship when we can catch the airplain?).

Cheers

[Michael W]

Ahh I see your point but my whole point is that people tend to downgrade his work becuase he uses electronics and because he has "friends" that help him out. He said it himself he doesnt mind having people help him out(and i think thats respectable condering all the praise he gives to other smaller composers not to mention the experience they get) and honestly the score to Batman Begins was incredible and that was him and newton howard.

and believe me i can take criticism but this is a forum and I wanted to see what people had to say

My question is are u a fan of Zimmer??

This "friends" are orchestrators or composers?
I think most critic is that he let compose much music in his style (RC) and not that he is a bad composer. This scores traded under his name makes his name bad. Another point to this is that he became a bit uninspired the last time compared to his earlier works. So and with the whole of similar scores, people downgrade his music.

I thought you were one of those ehh Zimmerfans, i'm sorry, i think my post was a bit to harsh :)
he's one of my favourite composers too. I like a lot of his work, except many of his Co-Works, they are mostly under his level.

[sinkd]

If the lights go out in my house... I'm headed to the bedroom with my wife! ;)
Now that's making sweet music!
ooooOOOOOHHHHhhhhhh. TELL ME MORE!;) :D ;) :)

(Yes I can compose when the power goes out. I have a piano and a pencil and some paper and a brain.)

But Zimmer is doing a lot with the limited gifts bestowed upon him :) Gotta give the guy some credit.

[guy theaker]

I've always seen the 'Zimmer divide' as one of style - not use of electronics. Zimmer is extremely minimal when writing; he has a knack of making very few notes go a long way. On the other extreme there's John Williams, whose scores from the 80's are incredibly intricate and detailed. Both are excellent composers in their chosen style. Having said that, there are moments in 'Memoirs of a Geisha' when Williams can sound a lot like Zimmer. It's just a style thing!

Oh, and can I throw my PC out and put pen to manuscript? Yep, but I'm not sure I want to. I'm old enough to remember the old days - all techniques of composition and orchestration was done 'in the head'. If only we'd had PC's and EWQLSO...

[Daryl]

The point is that I don't have to be any better than someone in order to criticise. All the kids in the local school band can play their trumpets better than I can (as I don't play the trumpet), but it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to say that they sound bad.

D

[nikolas]

amazing, that I didn't see this thread earlier.

Yes I can and actually I always do.

I believ that composing in a manuscript means that you pay attention in every luittle detail and you are able to proofread your own work when copying it on the comp[uter.

Furthermore, (if we're talking about notation software) I find it difficult, with so many notes and drafts to keep in eye on a single screen, where with a piece and p[aper I can keep track of every page...

If we're tlaking about straight wirting in Cubase./Logic/whatever then all I can say is that I don't think that anyone would be able to orchestrate (or composer) something by playing it straigh away on a keyboard or inputing it in with the piano roll.

Composing and orchetsrating takes time and concetration, and I perosnally always do it the hardcore way: Pencil and paper.

[WoodIsGood]

If we're tlaking about straight wirting in Cubase./Logic/whatever then all I can say is that I don't think that anyone would be able to orchestrate (or composer) something by playing it straigh away on a keyboard or inputing it in with the piano roll.

Obviously, this is a matter of opinion. While I realize the benefits of writing directly with pencil and paper (and I wish I were better at it), I do think one can orchestrate/compose with a computer. It's just a different way of approaching things. A lot of guys are doing this these days in film/television. The piano roll is a different thing altoghether, maybe best suited for editing, but playing parts one by one into a sequencer is a very viable option. Like I said, it's all what you are comfortable with. Probably a little of both is the way to go.

[Daryl]

Obviously, this is a matter of opinion. While I realize the benefits of writing directly with pencil and paper (and I wish I were better at it), I do think one can orchestrate/compose with a computer. It's just a different way of approaching things. A lot of guys are doing this these days in film/television. The piano roll is a different thing altoghether, maybe best suited for editing, but playing parts one by one into a sequencer is a very viable option. Like I said, it's all what you are comfortable with. Probably a little of both is the way to go.
I'm afraid that orchestrating and sequencing are not the same thing. Whilst of course, there is nothing wrong with using orchestral samples with your sequencer, this is in no way the same as orchestrating, as things like articulations (slurs etc.) are an integral part of orchestrating.

D

[dcoscina]

Yes I can and already have, many times just using a piano and manuscript. Maybe I'd need to consult Mr. Adler on some ranges and such but otherwise, I can write for orchestra,. It's just a slower process that's all.

[ellios]

I, too, write (compose and orchestrate) with pencil and paper and I love the smell of.. ERASING!

i am classically trained with a university degree in composition (and that doesn't make me a better composer, believe me!) and since the hay days (!) of the Juno-106, I have had synths and gear in my studios. Nowadays, it's mainly (and only) computers (sampler stations) that produce my moccups and/or my final product when time and money isn't on my side... I conduct musicians every year, (thanks to life!) ranging from 8 to approximately 60 musicians.

I write with my old friends: pencil and paper and... with my somehow other old friend, the computer. It's been with me since Finale 1 and Performer 1. The latter has changed dramatically over the years as opposed the others... We just know each other so well, we don't argue, we don't fight, we respect each other, get down to business as fast as possible and try to be creative in relative silence!

[WoodIsGood]

I'm afraid that orchestrating and sequencing are not the same thing. Whilst of course, there is nothing wrong with using orchestral samples with your sequencer, this is in no way the same as orchestrating, as things like articulations (slurs etc.) are an integral part of orchestrating.

D

Daryl,

I never meant to suggest that sequencing and orchestrating were the same thing.

[Daryl]

Daryl,

I never meant to suggest that sequencing and orchestrating were the same thing.
OK, then I apologise for letting you think that this was aimed at you, but I can assure you that there are quite a few A-List composers who don't understand this. In fact I had a conversation with one such individual who told me that he did all his own orchestrations and all his orchestrator's role was as a glorified part extractor. What he didn't know was that I happened to speak to his orchestrator the day before and actually saw the state of the MIDI files. What's more, said composer then went on to say "of course, I guess the orchestrator has to split up the string parts into separate lines". And he thinks that he does his own orchestrations...!

D

[WoodIsGood]

. . . but I can assure you that there are quite a few A-List composers who don't understand this.
D

That's sad. Just look at the liner notes of Elfman's Spiderman II soundtrack . . . he has 3 or 4 orchestrators. :eek:

[White Noise]

It's funny. Sometimes I find that I want to get a very immediate sense of satisfaction and I'll load up a patch of sounds and play around sequencing stuff to find ideas. Other times I sit down with paper and pen to write something that I feel has more intellectual wait behind it. However, my best work has always been a case of using both techniques. Can I continue to write when the power goes out - absolutely, some of my best ideas have just drifted into my head on the train and I scribble them down as quickly as I can. I then get them back to the studio and explore them with intrumentation provided courtesy of East West to find the right colours, then I might go back to paper and pen to really explore the material in a more cerebral fashion before going back to the sequencer again to do a detailed mock up. I fundamentally disagree that sequencing isn't orchestrating, because, whilst sequencing, in a lot of instances one can derive a very immediate sense of whether the horns playing in a particular register actually suits the material or not. You try getting your manuscript paper to sing back to you...

Bottom line, the more tools technological or otherwise that you have at your disposal the better. The trick is to be as conversant in as many different techniques for scoring as possible. So if you use paper and pen and don't know about music technology, you owe it to your music to learn. If you can only write using a sequencer and a load of apple loops or Rex files you owe it to your music to become more skilled at actually writing music rather than arranging loops. If you are at the half way house - which is using orchestral libraries to approximate an orchestral sound without the knowledge of how to translate that into a real (flesh and blood) rather than virtual sound, then you should probably learn. Defending the truth of one over the other seems irrational to me.

I should also point out that Hans does read music, although perhaps not as fluently as someone like Bruce Fowler. This idea that he is somekind of musical illiterate who is reliant on technology is deeply unfair to him. Yes, he has gone on record as saying that he doesn't feel that he could do what he does without the technology but let us not forget that the guy was a key proponent of the very music technology that many of us love and rely upon. He sits on the boards of both Wizoo and Euphonix and was using technology to produce music before many of the establishment had even considered its potential. In one respect, yes he may be limited, but, to be fair, the guy has found a way of getting the music out of his head and into your ears regardless. And to those that don't like his music - yes, it may not be as musically interesting as that of Bernard Herrman, but, so what? Ticks my box!

[Jeff Hayat]

Yes, I can compose. Better than some? Maybe. Better than most? Probably not. But who is to say that I am not as good/better than anyone else? Who is to say that Hans is good/great/not that good/terrible/whatever? Who is to say that a particular cue is not right? Music is an art form; wherever there is art there will always be a plethora of different opinions. Who is right and who is wrong? The correct answer is NOBODY.

That's sad. Just look at the liner notes of Elfman's Spiderman II soundtrack . . . he has 3 or 4 orchestrators. :eek:

Well, that may very well be due to time constraints, and nothing else. How many minutes of music did the film contain? How long did Elfman have to write the score? It was probably a matter of Danny giving the cues for reels 1 & 2 to one orchestrator, the cues for reels 3 & 4 to another orchestrator, etc.

[drew]

Well, that may very well be due to time constraints, and nothing else. How many minutes of music did the film contain? How long did Elfman have to write the score? It was probably a matter of Danny giving the cues for reels 1 & 2 to one orchestrator, the cues for reels 3 & 4 to another orchestrator, etc.

DE has never orchestrated his music. He is not a formally trained composer. He is an incredibly talented and gifted musician who pretty much fell into scoring films and has adpated quite well.

I'd dare say that many composers would give anything to possess his originality and creativity. I don't much care who does the orchestrations. That's a craft that can be learned.

[Jeff Hayat]

DE has never orchestrated his music.

Yes - he is actually known as a 'hummer'. To what extent this is true, I have no idea so I will not begin to speculate, but he does have that reputation. Nothing wrong with that in my book; it's what the final element is that counts. And his scores are among the best, IMHO.

[chocothrax]

That's sad. Just look at the liner notes of Elfman's Spiderman II soundtrack . . . he has 3 or 4 orchestrators. :eek:

And what is your point? Anyways Spiderman 2 had three composers involved- Elfman, Debney and Young so it equals out to one orchestrator per composer almost. :) Oh and yeah Danny just loves that hummer myth.

[FilmComposerZ]

I have an idea!!

How about we all post up the staff music of a one line melody we create. We all vote which one is the one we are going to try to orchestrate. We vote. Maybe a simple two bar to 4 bar melody. 4/4 or 6/8 or 3/4, whatver it be...

Once chosen, we all take a crack at orchestrating and harmonizing the melody and at the same time writing variations to the theme to end up with at least 30 seconds of music,

This would make a great training tool.

Pablo

[Jeff Hayat]

I have an idea!!

How about we all post up the staff music of a one line melody we create. We all vote which one is the one we are going to try to orchestrate. We vote. Maybe a simple two bar to 4 bar melody. 4/4 or 6/8 or 3/4, whatver it be...

Once chosen, we all take a crack at orchestrating and harmonizing the melody and at the same time writing variations to the theme to end up with at least 30 seconds of music,

This would make a great training tool.

Pablo

This is a great idea - but needs it's own thread....

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?p=37946#post37946

[WoodIsGood]

And what is your point? Anyways Spiderman 2 had three composers involved- Elfman, Debney and Young so it equals out to one orchestrator per composer almost. :) Oh and yeah Danny just loves that hummer myth.

My point was, if what Daryl said is true, that some A-list composers don't understand the value of an orchestrator, then that is sad. I was commenting on how important they really are. :)

[Edx]

That's a pretty broad assumption to make given that there are as many folks working without "friends and helpers" as there are people that need the assistance.

The fact is MANY folks in the business go straight to sequence now. If you input as per each instrument individually (i.e. 4 french horn lines in sequence with one dedicated to each horn, etc.), it can be seemless depending upon how one works.

james newton howard does that for one

[guy theaker]

Yes, I can compose. Better than some? Maybe. Better than most? Probably not. But who is to say that I am not as good/better than anyone else? Who is to say that Hans is good/great/not that good/terrible/whatever? Who is to say that a particular cue is not right? Music is an art form; wherever there is art there will always be a plethora of different opinions. Who is right and who is wrong? The correct answer is NOBODY.
.
Are you really suggesting that the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Stravinsky is not in some way intrinsically better than, say, your music (or mine for that matter). I'm sorry, I don't buy it! I think your right in saying that as an artform, music will always generate different opinions, but when the opinions of lots of people, from lots of different generations of people start to match, it can't all be a coincidence, can it?

[dcoscina]

Are you really suggesting that the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Stravinsky is not in some way intrinsically better than, say, your music (or mine for that matter). I'm sorry, I don't buy it! I think your right in saying that as an artform, music will always generate different opinions, but when the opinions of lots of people, from lots of different generations of people start to match, it can't all be a coincidence, can it?

I concur. Frankly, I get a little frustrated with this artsy-fartsy esoteric quasi-philosphical rationale about how all music is great- it's just a matter of opinion. Anyone who has taken the time to be formally trained or even crack a book on orchestration, harmony or book on jazz arranging knows that there are systems in place developed through hundreds of years by composers who pushed the envelope BUT were also grounded in the fundaments of music. Copying and pasting the same line tranposed down a 4th does not make for a great fugue. Nor does following a simple triadic structure that is more at home in the pop world. Of course, the wonderful double standard would then dictate that my opinions are elitist and as such not valid because music is all about sharing the love.

This is utter vacuous rubbish. And it's a bloody insult to those of us who have and still continue to learn more about the mechanics of music to make our efforts that much more solid.

Let the flaming begin!

[Jeff Hayat]

Are you really suggesting that the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Stravinsky is not in some way intrinsically better than, say, your music (or mine for that matter).

Umm, no - that is not at all what I was suggesting. In fact, you made me re-read my post, and there is NOTHING in my post that even remotely suggests that. Is that what you got from my post? Wow - that's odd. How did you get that?

You said, "...when the opinions of lots of people, from lots of different generations of people start to match, it can't all be a coincidence, can it?" Well, that statement may or may not be correct - but how does that relate to what I said?

[nikolas]

I see that I have created a little argument here and I need to clarify things further:

An example maybe:

I just don't believe that someone inputing instrument per instrument, articulation per articulation could come up with a score like "Rite of Spring" by Stravinsky. Even if they had the same music in reduced score. I jusyt can't find it possible that without having the whole score in fron of you, someone would be able to come up with that brilliant orchestration.

I'm not saying that orchestrating straight to Cubase is not possible, and god I've done it myself too. But I do have to say that comparing it with my other works, composed with a pencil and paper, they lack the small details.

Just that.

Neither I want to imply that writing in piece of paper and pencil will make somone better composer or anything. I don't even know what a "good" composer is... Let alone if I am one...

[Liam]

Who is to say that a particular cue is not right? Music is an art form; wherever there is art there will always be a plethora of different opinions. Who is right and who is wrong? The correct answer is NOBODY.

Two words: THANK YOU.
That needed to be said and is VERY true. That's primarily why these forums thrive like they do, because everyone has a different opinion...and they'll always post it because they believe they are right. Always been that way, always will be...and that is actually a good thing. ;)

[Phantom]

I'm holding my classical guitar right now and I have music paper, pencil and rubber on the table, my Mac is off (obviously my internet PC is on) and I'm writing a "spanish fancy" for guitar.
Maybe later I'll add some more instruments and I'll do it by the computer (why cross the ocean by a ship when we can catch the airplain?).

Cheers

Well put
:)

[pappagheno]

wow ..

just saw this topic..
still dont understand all this hassle about Zimmer ..anyway..:)

Talking about my own experience...

sometimes the melody start into my head , so I write it down, then I need a piano, guitar or cubase to make it real. ( then I always been a slow reader .. so Iprefer the computer ..)
I am not able to listen into my head the whole orchestra so I think that going on with instruments is even more creative becouse could give you some other unexpected imput.

I didnt had the tipycal classical background, started with heavy metal t ofinish with Jazz guitar but was listening opera when I was a child but is been a great experience to be assistent director on several operas.
Nothing is better than see reharsal of an orchestra.

When I was sutdying jazz after all that struggle learning the scale etc my teacher just told me that all the notes are ok..and actually he was literally playing whout even thinking at the scales..

SO..
I think that to be snobbish about a medium is not CREATIVE .. if the guy that is playing the guitar with the "tapping" technics was thinking like this was still playing Bach ( dont take me wrong I love Bach)

The computer is just one part of the process, U write the music someone else maybe is going to help u with the orchestration and someone else is directing the orchestra.. what is wrong about it..
THe team work sometimes is better than the one man band :)

anybody ever heard teh cd where Pat Metheny started to use the real orchestra ? of course he had an orchestrator but the result was very interesting

then .. considering a sort of mentor.. well.. love Zimmer but Iusually think at Puccini and Strauss for real inspiration for muisc film .. but.. Strauss started to write music when he was a little child.. so maybe in his case was not a problem to write without the "computer " :)


I am wondering if this topic started with a hidden question.. who is the owner of the music Iwrite .. or something like that ?

BTW Isaw parrots playing keyboards ..and singing too... and they was really enjoing it :)

(is nota joke ..is real....)

[Daryl]

I just don't believe that someone inputing instrument per instrument, articulation per articulation could come up with a score like "Rite of Spring" by Stravinsky. Even if they had the same music in reduced score. I jusyt can't find it possible that without having the whole score in fron of you, someone would be able to come up with that brilliant orchestration.

I'm not saying that orchestrating straight to Cubase is not possible, and god I've done it myself too. But I do have to say that comparing it with my other works, composed with a pencil and paper, they lack the small details.
History tells us that there have been many people who can hear a whole score in their head, and all they are doing is transferring it to paper so that it can be played. Coming up with brilliant orchestration is easy. What is difficult is learning to create the sound that you hear in your head with pencil and paper and being 99% accurate when you hear it played back. To my mind there is no difference in building up your aural picture with a sequencer rather than with pencil and paper. After all there are people who only program looking at the score page (what a dreadful thought!), so this is not much different from using paper and pencil. However, unless all the performance details are in the score then this is not orchestration either.

D

[PaulR]

sometimes the melody start into my head ,

You just cracked this thread. Well done.

That's the important thing in writing anything. Not whether one uses a computer or a keyboard or a pencil. The melody or initial subject matter i.e. idea in music is what's important.

All the the other peripheral stuff like orchestrating is not anywhere near as important - because orchestration can be either learned or bought. For example, a musical idea could be orchestrated in a thousand different ways and sound good or or bad a thousand different ways. The initial idea is the important thing and orchestration comes down the list. That's one of the reasons Zimmer gets away with quite a lot - his initial ideas for film music make a statement and can be either over orchestrated - or merely sparse. Either way they can be effective.

[Daryl]

All the the other peripheral stuff like orchestrating is not anywhere near as important - because orchestration can be either learned or bought. For example, a musical idea could be orchestrated in a thousand different ways and sound good or or bad a thousand different ways. The initial idea is the important thing and orchestration comes down the list. That's one of the reasons Zimmer gets away with quite a lot - his initial ideas for film music make a statement and can be either over orchestrated - or merely sparse. Either way they can be effective.
However, Rimsky-Korsakov used to get very annoyed whenever someone congratulated him on his orchestration. In his view he wrote for orchestra in the first place, so there was no orchestration.....

D

[PaulR]

However, Rimsky-Korsakov used to get very annoyed whenever someone congratulated him on his orchestration. In his view he wrote for orchestra in the first place, so there was no orchestration.....
D

Oh yes of course - because a lot of the better composers regarded the orchestra as a 'complete' instrument in the first place. But lesser mortals like myself that have had no formal training in composition have to 'build' as it were.

[drew]

To my mind there is no difference in building up your aural picture with a sequencer rather than with pencil and paper.

D

Exactly! Everyone has their own method of composing and there is no right or wrong way. It's whatever works for you. Entire scores needn't be sketched out or preplanned to create a great piece of music.

Some of the posts here have made feeble attempts to make one feel inferior if they can't or don't use pencil/paper. I'm an old p/p guy, but since computers and the software have matured I've found it a waste of time to use the old method, when eventually I'm going to sequence it in anyways.

I'm wondering if authors have this same discussion regarding word processors??

[Jeff Hayat]

You just cracked this thread. Well done.

That's the important thing in writing anything. Not whether one uses a computer or a keyboard or a pencil. The melody or initial subject matter i.e. idea in music is what's important.

All the the other peripheral stuff like orchestrating is not anywhere near as important - because orchestration can be either learned or bought. For example, a musical idea could be orchestrated in a thousand different ways and sound good or or bad a thousand different ways. The initial idea is the important thing and orchestration comes down the list. That's one of the reasons Zimmer gets away with quite a lot - his initial ideas for film music make a statement and can be either over orchestrated - or merely sparse. Either way they can be effective.

Ditto. (Hey Paul! :D ) It's not how you come up with what you come up with that is important. :)

[TheVamp]

To my mind there is no difference in building up your aural picture with a sequencer rather than with pencil and paper.

D

Exactly! Everyone has their own method of composing and there is no right or wrong way. It's whatever works for you. Entire scores needn't be sketched out or preplanned to create a great piece of music.

Some of the posts here have made feeble attempts to make one feel inferior if they can't or don't use pencil/paper. I'm an old p/p guy, but since computers and the software have matured I've found it a waste of time to use the old method, when eventually I'm going to sequence it in anyways.

I'm wondering if authors have this same discussion regarding word processors??

I'm glad that someone said this as I was starting to feel a little put upon myself.
I've said this before and I'll say it again... all that matters in the end is what comes out of the speakers. Either the music works or it don't.
Yes there are centuries of conventions in music, but one thing I've learned in listening to music in my life is... in music the rules is there ain't no rules.
Now I have a question for everyone... What would you call the music that's produced by our members? I've heard some fantastic pieces from almost eveyone who's posted in this thread. David Choichoi's "The Mad Scientist" and "A Ghost in Love." David Coscina's "Bell Witch Haunting Suite" (which he admitted was not all done pencil and paper).
These are just the ones that come to mind immediately.
Are these pieces not good music? There's no real orchestra playing. I don't even know if complete written scores exist for these pieces. All I know is that I like them very much. I think they're good music and their composers are talented. They sound like finished pieces and in my mind are no different than anything written, orchestrated by any composer to be played by a real orchestra. Am I wrong?

[guy theaker]

Umm, no - that is not at all what I was suggesting. In fact, you made me re-read my post, and there is NOTHING in my post that even remotely suggests that. Is that what you got from my post? Wow - that's odd. How did you get that?

You said, "...when the opinions of lots of people, from lots of different generations of people start to match, it can't all be a coincidence, can it?" Well, that statement may or may not be correct - but how does that relate to what I said?

Sorry Riff, I must have misunderstood the point you were making. It just seemed to me that you were saying that, in music there is no such thing as right or wrong, good or bad, but simply personal opinion. 'Who is right and who is wrong? The correct answer is NOBODY.' This does seem to suggest that you feel there is nothing intrinsically good or bad about any music. It's all in the eye of the person that's looking - and I agree with that to a certain extent. But if intrinsically good music doesn't exist, then why are the great composers of the past remembered as such, and their music still played? It may be that a lot of people, each with their own personal opinion, agree that Bach's music is some of the greatest music ever written. Why would they all think the same thing if there wasn't anything intrinsically 'right' about his work?

If all you meant was - everyone is free to hold their own opinions, then I completely agree, and apologize for my misinterpretation!

[Jeff Hayat]

Sorry Riff, I must have misunderstood the point you were making. It just seemed to me that you were saying that, in music there is no such thing as right or wrong, good or bad, but simply personal opinion. 'Who is right and who is wrong? The correct answer is NOBODY.'

No - you didn't misunderstand - that is exactly what I was saying. And I do in fact believe that intrinsically good music exists - but only in the ears of the beholder.

You said, "why are the great composers of the past remembered as such, and their music still played?"

Great point. But from my perspective (which is not necessarily the only perspective) those composers (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc.) are only great in the eyes of those who see them as such. If a bunch of people get together and say, "eh, we don't like the music of those composers...", then those people do not see those composers as being great. Are those people right? Are they wrong? They are neither. The fact that the compsers' music is still played suggests that there are many people that see those composers as being great - but that does not mean that they are great simply because some people say or think they are.

You also said, "Why would they all think the same thing..." Who is 'all'? The entire population? Of course not. But there are alot of people that do think such. Are the few that see those composers as being great right, or is the rest of the population right? And who is more - fans of those composers, or people that aren't fans? I think you'll find that out of the entire planet's population, there are more people NOT into classical music than are. Maybe some of this is due to simple lack of exposure, however, if the people that like classical music and think that those composers are great are the minority of the population, does that make them right? Does it make them wrong? It makes them neither - it simply makes them fans of that music, and if the music moves them, and helps to make their lives better and/or more meaningful, than so be it!

And please, no apologies - nothing wrong with discussing a difference of opinion; this is what makes us human.

Cheers.

[Daryl]

Are these pieces not good music? There's no real orchestra playing. I don't even know if complete written scores exist for these pieces. All I know is that I like them very much. I think they're good music and their composers are talented. They sound like finished pieces and in my mind are no different than anything written, orchestrated by any composer to be played by a real orchestra. Am I wrong?
No, they sound nothing like an orchestra, but that doesn't mean that they are bad. MIDI sequencing is just a different medium and is just as capable of producing good music as any other.

D

[TheVamp]

No, they sound nothing like an orchestra, but that doesn't mean that they are bad. MIDI sequencing is just a different medium and is just as capable of producing good music as any other.

D

They sound nothing like an orchestra? I thought that was the point.

[dcoscina]

I think people are confusing the art of composing with orchestrating or at least composing for orchestras. Obviously there are many styles and genres of music that don't require writing the music down. Jazz is largely improvisational with a chart normally outlining the chord changes with a "head" that is played at the beginning and conclusion of the piece with solos happening in the main body of the work. Many famous pop songs were never written down. Of course the genre will largely dictate the approach.

But I must firmly say that the most effective way of truly writing deftly for orchestras is following the tradition that many many many composers have adhered to for over 300 years which is to notate everything on paper (or notation programs which are basically analogous). Because the orchestra employs so many instruments, ranges, textures and such, it's a complex beast. Also we must consider that traditional orchestral repetoire has encompassed larger structures and forms that need to be mapped out rather than played in realtime. And while I think many of us can hear works in our heads, I doubt they are as developed as someone as Mozart's (who was really an aboration in my opinion- Beethoven revised and revised his orchestral works).

I do think that notating orchestral pieces in a more traditional format is inherently better or more effective than playing in track by track in realtime. Unless someone has monster chops and can play in septuplets at 150 bpm in realtime, that kind of compelx rhythmic writing can only be accomplished by plotting in notes without the metronome clicking its fascist tempo in the background.

And even when dealing with counterpoint, it's far more effective to see how the parts are interacting on full score than to try to hear what's going on. Even advanced harmonic progessions have to be considered too.

I think the best pieces I've heard on sample libraries have been inputted in or at least used a lot of notation editing to get the finished result. Ask Thomas J, how he does his pieces. He's a good example of this approach I do believe.

-Dave

[drew]

You said, "why are the great composers of the past remembered as such, and their music still played?"

Great point. But from my perspective (which is not necessarily the only perspective) those composers (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc.) are only great in the eyes of those who see them as such.

Cheers.

I think it goes a bit deeper than this and there are very good reasons why certain composers are considered great and others not.

The influence their music had on those that came after them is the hallmark of whom is considered great. This is true in all of the arts from Mozart to Hendrix to Coltrane to Picasso. They did something very new and it changed the course of their art and spawned a whole new generation of artists whom relied heavily on and borrowed much from what they did.

Besides, even a trained monkey can tell the difference between an opera by Mozart and the dribble from any one of his lesser contemporaries. There are certainly concrete methods of discerning great from common - intelligent and critical use of our ears and eyes is a good start.

Your statement reminds me of a famous quote "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like." Well, that may be true, but what we like may not neccessarily be good or great.

[TheVamp]

Your statement reminds me of a famous quote "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like." Well, that may be true, but what we like may not neccessarily be good or great.

I think that old quote is the crux of my argument. I know I don't have the musical knowledge of some of the people in this forum, but I know what I like and that's really all that matters. To anyone, I think. Look at what started this thread, HornMeister's love of Zimmer. Me, personally, I don't like his later stuff. Not looking forward to Da Vinci Code or Pirates of the Carribbean: Dead Man's Chest. That won't matter in the slightest to HornMeister or anyone else that likes Zimmer. They love his stuff. To them, his stuff is "great" and, really, they're not wrong.

[gsomers]

I just don't believe that someone inputing instrument per instrument, articulation per articulation could come up with a score like "Rite of Spring" by Stravinsky. Even if they had the same music in reduced score. I jusyt can't find it possible that without having the whole score in fron of you, someone would be able to come up with that brilliant orchestration.


We're getting onto shakey ground here. Humans don't really understand how they create cultural objects - like writing plays and composing ballet scores. The science guys are split on the subject of whether there is magic in any of what we do or not. Remember the bit about enough monkeys in the basement typing away at enough typewriters eventually output all of Shakespeare (whoever he was)? The same applies for Le Sacre du Printemps. If it is possible to do one, it is also possible to do the other.

Mathematically, it is a slam dunk, but (and this is a BIG but) the problem is "enough monkeys" and "eventually." The odds that this will happen are calculable but very long - which just means that allowing the creation of Le Sacre to chance is not a very wise strategy if you want to live to hear it. This is just one of those spooky things that we may never truly know because "we" are what we are trying to know.

My hunch is that inputting instrument per instrument, articulation per articulation has a better shot - how much better is debatable.

Just thought I'd drag this conversation into the epistemological mud for a moment ... ;)

Cheers,
George

[nikolas]

gsomers:

I'm not talking about magic. I don't really believe in magic in music, maybe 1-2% the rest is hard work.

I think that you misunderstood what I've said.

The complexity of a score like Igors' one is that great that I highly doubt that anyone would be able to come up with it, without looking at it and working on it on paper (notation). How would that one person be able to remember what he had inputed in the 1st flute (out of four) while writting the line for the EH? I don't think that one could understand anything by the midi tracks...

At least, I personally, have a hard time doing complex orchestrations immediately on Cubase. I have to know what the other instruments are playing at that exact beat (all of them), and know each and every interval on the score and so on...

For example, How can one could come up with the above page, simply by inputing note by note in Cubase? If I seem arrogant or to brag, I'm sorry... I'm not...

[drew]

gsomers:

I'm not talking about magic. I don't really believe in magic in music, maybe 1-2% the rest is hard work.

I think that you misunderstood what I've said.

The complexity of a score like Igors' one is that great that I highly doubt that anyone would be able to come up with it, without looking at it and working on it on paper (notation). How would that one person be able to remember what he had inputed in the 1st flute (out of four) while writting the line for the EH? I don't think that one could understand anything by the midi tracks...

At least, I personally, have a hard time doing complex orchestrations immediately on Cubase. I have to know what the other instruments are playing at that exact beat (all of them), and know each and every interval on the score and so on...

For example, How can one could come up with the above page, simply by inputing note by note in Cubase? If I seem arrogant or to brag, I'm sorry... I'm not...

Perhaps you don't understand Cubase or sequencing well enough. It's easy, once you learn, to input into the piano roll - it's just like writing on paper. You draw the notes in with a mouse instead of a pencil. The result is the same, just a different method. Shouldn't have any effect on what or how you write. It's easy to select as many tracks as you want and have them all show up in one piano roll window so you can see the parts of the other instruments. The score you show is not so complex that it could easily be handled this way.

[pappagheno]

..
think the point here is .. are you good enought to write music for orchestra ? if not u are not a composer ?
is it the question ? sorry I am loosing the point..

Cole Porter didnt write music for orchestra.. but you can hear lovely arrangement for orchestra as well..
that's tru for every kind of music ..even for MEtallica..

we are talking about a different medium..

I think the poin it the melody .. u cannot build an house starting from the forniture...
and .. ithink that to study how t owrite on a pentagram some music should be not so diffult at all .. pencil or computer.. but dont see teh difference in the end..

what is in the brain in the end ?


btw.. I ma sad.. becouse I lost the link I had on internet of the umbrella cockatoo singing and playing electronic keyboard.. ( a little one.. ) in anybody ever saw it..please send the link .. end off topic ;)

[nikolas]

I may very well not understand well Cubase, or sequencing.

When we talk about piano roll we're talking about the image bellow right?

How can you know which note is in which instrument and so on... (I've selected all the midi tracks and double clicked). If I had only one midi track selected, I wouldn't know what the rest are doing...

Honestly I may be very wrong here. Do point me in the right direction please, if I am indeed wrong

btw, it;s not the scofe you see above, and excuse the attahcments please... :/

[HornMeister]

oh wow this really got heated

no need for hostility

[HornMeister]

I may very well not understand well Cubase, or sequencing.

When we talk about piano roll we're talking about the image bellow right?

How can you know which note is in which instrument and so on... (I've selected all the midi tracks and double clicked). If I had only one midi track selected, I wouldn't know what the rest are doing...

Honestly I may be very wrong here. Do point me in the right direction please, if I am indeed wrong

btw, it;s not the scofe you see above, and excuse the attahcments please... :/


put that in front of a piano player and lets see what he plays

[drew]

I may very well not understand well Cubase, or sequencing.

When we talk about piano roll we're talking about the image bellow right?

How can you know which note is in which instrument and so on... (I've selected all the midi tracks and double clicked). If I had only one midi track selected, I wouldn't know what the rest are doing...

Honestly I may be very wrong here. Do point me in the right direction please, if I am indeed wrong

btw, it;s not the scofe you see above, and excuse the attahcments please... :/

Click on a note, and the title bar in the window will change to reflect the current track/instrument you have selected and all it's notes will be hilited. You can edit or draw in new notes, even edit controller lanes for that instrument. Like I said, there is a learning curve but once you get the hang of it, things can go pretty quickly.

[HornMeister]

..
think the point here is .. are you good enought to write music for orchestra ? if not u are not a composer ?
is it the question ? sorry I am loosing the point..



the point originally was can you compose without the help of electronics. I used Zimmer because someone on the Hans Zimmer forum said that "show me a composer that can still compose when the power goes off" so I went off of that. I didnt think it would get this serious. And its great that people respected other people's opinion. Thats what keep this going.

But hey BBQ at my house on sunday afternoon.Everyone is invited......... Zimmer will be playing all day :D

[WoodIsGood]

I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'll sum it up as far as what I have learned. Use whatever tools work best for you to get the job done. Whether or not you can write with pencil and paper or computers or both doesn't matter, just as long as you accomplish what you set out to do. Now, the title of the thread is "Can YOU compose" but the first line of the thread says "can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper . . . " Obviously, as I've learned here, these are two different tasks. :)

[HornMeister]

I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'll sum it up as far as what I have learned. Use whatever tools work best for you to get the job done. Whether or not you can write with pencil and paper or computers or both doesn't matter, just as long as you accomplish what you set out to do. Now, the title of the thread is "Can YOU compose" but the first line of the thread says "can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper . . . " Obviously, as I've learned here, these are two different tasks. :)

true story :rolleyes:

[F. Murray Baberaham]

I need ONGBUUUUNDT!!!

[HornMeister]

I need ONGBUUUUNDT!!!

what?

a what?:confused:

[nikolas]

no need for hostility
I'm honestly trying to see if there is something Idon't know or understand...

Now, how would that help me if I have a huge 12 tone (or more) chord? I mean everytime you get to see all the notes, but the name of the stract you have chosen and not the rest. So for example you would know that a note in there belongs to the flute, but the rest are left blind... If you are to click everytime you want to see what's going on...

Anyway if this is the actuall case of sequencing (and there is nothing new for me then), then I have to say that personally I find writing in piece of paper and pencil, and maybe a notatio nsoftware (although I'm too much of a pencil guy) is better. In my opinion that is.

Anyhow, as to the original question of the thread goes: I can compose and orchestrate without a computer. :)

[drew]

I'm honestly trying to see if there is something Idon't know or understand...

Now, how would that help me if I have a huge 12 tone (or more) chord? I mean everytime you get to see all the notes, but the name of the stract you have chosen and not the rest. So for example you would know that a note in there belongs to the flute, but the rest are left blind... If you are to click everytime you want to see what's going on...

Anyway if this is the actuall case of sequencing (and there is nothing new for me then), then I have to say that personally I find writing in piece of paper and pencil, and maybe a notatio nsoftware (although I'm too much of a pencil guy) is better. In my opinion that is.

Anyhow, as to the original question of the thread goes: I can compose and orchestrate without a computer. :)

That's the whole point of this. Whatever works for you and you are comfortable with, then stick with it. The method used is not indicative of the quality of the composition nor the skill of the composer. I used to write it all down, big deal. Now I find it more efficient to just use the computer.

[TheVamp]

The method used is not indicative of the quality of the composition nor the skill of the composer.

Goddammit, that's what I said! :D

[doug hazelrigg]

I concur, it's the end result that matters most... everything else are just means to the end

BTW... does anybody seriously think Hans Zimmer CAN'T orchestrate strictly on paper?

Having said that, yes, I can orchestrate in my head/ on paper. Actually, I'd say that's what I do 75% of teh time. It's something that comes with experience (and maybe some training). But no, I rarely input note for note using the Key Editor... it's just easier to play the part in realtime and tweak it later... Oftentimes what I'm hearing in my head doesn't actually work once it's scored, so it can take a bit of improv to get something that works

[dcoscina]

Notating allows composers to see the thickness of musical passages, not just hear them. It also allows for motivic immitation and other compositional devices. I mostly just play and compose so I'm admittedly in the predominant bunch here. No matter how much I tweak the piece of music though, it's initial origins come from realtime playing. I myself think I compose better music and especially more complex music ( rhythmic, harmonic, and orchestrated) when I'm entering things in.

I'm working on a brass ensemble piece in the vein of Alex North now and there's no way in hell I could achieve that typw of sound or writing style doing things in realtime. Not possible.

And I dare say I haven't heard a Song of the Earth level piece from anyone's MIDI rig. Or a Music for String Percussion and Celeste, or even a Betthoven 5th Symphony. Perhaps that's arrogant but I haven't. Have I heard something as complex and well written as Bartok by someone my age? Yes I have. A friend of mine's Masters thesis was a Bartok-inspired piece for string orchestra and it absolutely floored me. And it was all written out. Same goes for his Song cycle. Very Mahlerian and Straussian.

Truth is, I just heard a piece by the composer in residence at Vancouver the other day on the radio and it was incredibly amazing- once again, written out on score paper (but admittedly the parts were created in Finale).

I have to reiterate what I said earlier- composing in of itself can be achieved many ways. But for this particular discipline, given all the variables, the composers who write things out on score paper, or plot stuff in manually rather than rely solely on realtime improvisational tactics will have the odds in their favor of writing a more involved piece. There are exceptions but I really get annoyed when people fall back on the "well there were a lot of bad orchestral writers before computers". I believe there were less bad orchestral writers than computer composers nowadays because the field back then demanded some kind of formal education. You couldn't slip into film scoring back in the Golden Age of Hollywood. Sorry but even the Silver Age had too many guys who knew their stuff upside down and rightside up. And frankly, it's a disservice to greats like Newman, North, Herrmann, Korngold, Goldsmith, Williams, Rosza, Tiomkin, etc. to be lumped together with the Zimmer's of the business. There's a huge chasm that separates their abilities, knowledge and music.

[doug hazelrigg]

That's sad. Just look at the liner notes of Elfman's Spiderman II soundtrack . . . he has 3 or 4 orchestrators. :eek:

I did not know this, but it just underscores my relative disregard for Elfman. In short, I don't like his MUSIC. I could care less about his work flow. But I'v elong wondered how a 2nd rate pop musician ended up as one of more celebrated and prolific scorers. I think it says a lot that he's never been nominated, in my knowledge, for an Oscar

Just l jealous I guess

[pappagheno]

the point originally was can you compose without the help of electronics. I used Zimmer because someone on the Hans Zimmer forum said that "show me a composer that can still compose when the power goes off" so I went off of that. I didnt think it would get this serious. And its great that people respected other people's opinion. Thats what keep this going.

But hey BBQ at my house on sunday afternoon.Everyone is invited......... Zimmer will be playing all day :D


wrote like this let me think that the dinner will be Zimmer himself ;) lol

[doug hazelrigg]

Along the lines of what you're saying, I think the devil is in the details. To begin with, most of my inspiration comes in my head. Then, like you said, I do a lot of scoring by playing in realtime. I said about 75% of the time. However, THE REST of the time is spent fleshing things out, and most of that is done by drawing in notes (the computer equivalent of pen-to-paper)

As far as a pice being written on a DAW exhibiting the same level of nuance or flexibility as one done mostly on paper, I'd like to think my stuff exhibits that level of sophistication... one would hope teh DAW would actually allow for GREATER sophistication

[Daryl]

I did not know this, but it just underscores my relative disregard for Elfman. In short, I don't like his MUSIC. I could care less about his work flow. But I'v elong wondered how a 2nd rate pop musician ended up as one of more celebrated and prolific scorers. I think it says a lot that he's never been nominated, in my knowledge, for an Oscar

Just l jealous I guess
Being nominated for an Oscar is in no way indicative of either a composer's ability or the standard of the scores that they write.

D

[pappagheno]

I did not know this, but it just underscores my relative disregard for Elfman. In short, I don't like his MUSIC. I could care less about his work flow. But I'v elong wondered how a 2nd rate pop musician ended up as one of more celebrated and prolific scorers. I think it says a lot that he's never been nominated, in my knowledge, for an Oscar

Just l jealous I guess


look like we are keeping doing cofusion between composer and orchestrator isnt it ..

does it really matter if a composer is an amazing orchestrator or not.. then again ..an amazing orchestrator ..unfortunally will always remain like that if doesnt have any gift of composition skill..

this dicussion look like when people was saying that the photography was not real art like painting or the CG artist not being artistic enought and so on..

in the end is the "product " that count.. people first listen, then is going to look at the back of the cd .. or the final credit of the film..

at least that's what I saw around.. ;)

[dcoscina]

But I'v elong wondered how a 2nd rate pop musician ended up as one of more celebrated and prolific scorers.
Just l jealous I guess

this could also apply to Zimmer who also uses tons of orchestrators. And Zimmer never composed anything as beautiful as Edward Scissorhands to my ears.

[doug hazelrigg]

Being nominated for an Oscar is in no way indicative of either a composer's ability or the standard of the scores that they write.

D

Au contraire, mon ami

It most definitely IS a measure of excellence, since, unless I'm mistaken, the voting within this category is limited to other theatrical composers. But NOT being nominated of course doesn't mean you're not an excellent composer. Take MYSELF, for example...:)

I stand by my opinion of Elfman. A number of times I've listened to a score and thought, "Hmmm, this is not all that" and then the credits reveal "Elfman" Also, in the 15-odd years since he began scoring, couldn't he have learned to orchestrate

[doug hazelrigg]

Bring me up to speed

Zimmer does not orchestrate his own scores?

So he just comes up with melodies/lines and then others score them?

:mad:

I guess I just have relative lower regard for someone who gets paid well to do music for film but can't orchestrate it. Mostly I guess because I can, as well as many of the rest of you

BTW, in what fundamental way is playing around with your sequencing and selecting the appropriate articulations NOT the same as orchestrating? In both cases, aren't you simply trying to ARRIVE at what you hear in your mind?

[doug hazelrigg]

Also

For my good friend Riff

I disagree, there ARE relative degrees of excellence/greatness in art, it is NOT entirely subjective nor is it based on other secondary factors, such as influence or novelty. When certain artists emerge as highly regarded by a greater number of people, that means something ( I am NOT talking about sales). IOW, there's a reason why Picasso, Mozart, and Shakespeare are probably the 3 greatest artists that ever lived, beyond mere opinion...

[Daryl]

Au contraire, mon ami

It most definitely IS a measure of excellence, since, unless I'm mistaken, the voting within this category is limited to other theatrical composers. But NOT being nominated of course doesn't mean you're not an excellent composer. Take MYSELF, for example...:)
Two thoughts (or questions) for you to ponder:

1) What makes you think that theatrical composers are the best judges of what music is good or bad?

2) Do you think that it is possible to win an Oscar on a mediocre film? It should be, if it is the music (or even music to picture) that is being judged, rather than the film.

I stand by my opinion of Elfman. A number of times I've listened to a score and thought, "Hmmm, this is not all that" and then the credits reveal "Elfman" Also, in the 15-odd years since he began scoring, couldn't he have learned to orchestrate
I am informed Elfman has learned some orchestration craft over the years. This is why I think that the scores are getting more and more boring; be no longer relies on a top orchestrator to be creative for him.

D

[Daryl]

BTW, in what fundamental way is playing around with your sequencing and selecting the appropriate articulations NOT the same as orchestrating? In both cases, aren't you simply trying to ARRIVE at what you hear in your mind?
Orchestrating is making something playable for an orchestra. A sequencer using samples is not an orchestra. There are many examples where someone could get a great sound with the samples, transfer this to an orchestra, and it sounds terrible. It would then have to be "fixed" by playing the sampled version along side. Wait a minute, isn't that what......?

D

[Jeff Hayat]

For my good friend Doug

First, your opinion, as always, is welcome and respected. However, I am sticking to my waterpistols, and saying that art is ALWAYS subjective. The same way our opinions on this are subjective - am I right, or are you right? Neither of us is right, nor wrong.

As for Zimmer, I am not sure how he works, but I have heard that he will:

a) Hum a melody to someone and that someone will then orcehstrate
b) Have someone else hum a melody and he will then orchestrate
c) Write a melody, and sit in front of his computer(s) and play with different sounds/patches/samples until he finds what sounds right to him.

Cheers. :)

[chocothrax]

I am informed Elfman has learned some orchestration craft over the years. This is why I think that the scores are getting more and more boring; be no longer relies on a top orchestrator to be creative for him.

I've thought the same thing. I find the more involved orchestrators are in a score the better it is usually.

[doug hazelrigg]

am I right, or are you right? Neither of us is right, nor wrong.



I completely understand this POV, I just don't subscribe to it. I base this on the belief that there are some fundamental things we share as human beings, many of them deep and hard to pin down, and it's those universal things that translate into a good deal of commonality of opinion on what is or is not aesthetically pleasing. For example, most people will agree about whether a beautiful woman is in fact beautiful or not, there are some objective criteria (symmetrical face, balanced proportions, long eye lashes, etc.) that we all recognize. But it's a slightly different thing to say whether we're attracted to that woman. For example, the typical leggy full-length blonde one sees over and over again in Playboy doesn't do much for me, even though I'd concur that those women are beautiful. However, show me a pic of somebody like Tina Fey (the gal on Saturday Night Live) fully clothed and I become a bit uneasy.. where I suspect maybe you don't

In the same way, Mozart was never my cup of tea, although I recognize him as stated as one of the half dozen or so greatest artists of all time. Then, my favorite composer, Bartok, although well-known and loved, still is nowhere near as celebrated as Mozart, and correctly so

Hope I made sense

ALSO: I've said this before, but I think it's important that anyone who does creative work believe to some degree that THEIR WORK is superior in some way. I'll get laughed to scorn, but I feel there are some things I can do that Mozart couldn't... well, maybe not MOZART... okay, HANS ZIMMER or DANNY ELFMAN -- yeah, I think more highly of my own work than theirs. Which of course is open to ridicule, seeing they make $$$ doing this and I basically wash cars for a living. Long live subjectivity!

[dcoscina]

I've thought the same thing. I find the more involved orchestrators are in a score the better it is usually.

I think Elfman has done some good things lately, like HULK and some of his thematic material from Spiderman is good. I do prefer his more rhythmically divisible earlier works like Benny Blenderbutt and Batdude. His work from Good Will Hunting onward seemed to be a collage of colours with no apparent definable meter. In Stravinsky or Goldsmith's or North's case, they knew what they were doing- but I don't hear that with Elfman. It just sounds like a soundwash with the occasional choral smatterings.

That said, I'm not any more impressed with Zimmer (on a musical level at least). He can do effective underscore but I cannot listen to his music on its own. Too static, too much histrionics. And I wish someone would tell him to quit using that bloody half diminished chord as a pivot chord to a straight minor triad. Mozart did this 200 years ago. It's been done....to death. Find a new chord progression will ya Hans????

[dcoscina]

To the guy that said Elfman couldn't be any good because he hasn't received an Oscar- ANY and ALL Academy members (actors, directors, screenwriters, editors, cinematographers AND composers) get to vote on the nominated scores. I do believe the initial votes for which 5 final scores make it into the Best Original Score category are chosen by film composers on the board but the final voting is done by everyone. and we all know how musically adept actors are.... Elfman has been nominated several times- Men in Black and Good Will Hunting in 1997, and Best Original Song last year for Corpse Bride. He got totally rooked for his Nightmare Before Christmas score (his masterpiece IMO) back in 1993 BTW.

[doug hazelrigg]

Two thoughts (or questions) for you to ponder:

1) What makes you think that theatrical composers are the best judges of what music is good or bad?

2) Do you think that it is possible to win an Oscar on a mediocre film? It should be, if it is the music (or even music to picture) that is being judged, rather than the film.



Those are good points. To answer:

The question is, what is "Oscar worthy?" Is it just something that exhibits skill, craft, genius, etc., or is it ratyer something that enhances the experience of watching the movie in question? Or a combination of the two

I suppose movie composers are therefore the best judges because simply they are more qualified than the average guy on the street to what fulfiils the two criteria I list above -- artistry and utility

Regarding point 2, excellent point, but that's just the nature of the biz... Without doubt there have probably been some truly great soundtracks over the years that were ignored simply because teh movie did poorly at the box office

Still, overall, I'd submit that an Oscar nod is a form of verification that one's work is excellent (or at least good)

[doug hazelrigg]

I don't know that I said Elfman isn't any good. In fact, I admitted that most of my dismissal of him is based on jealousy because he's workin' and I'm not and I think I'm better

However, Elfman just doesn't do it for me. For example, I just saw Scissorhands the other day, I know the theme that's being referred to, it is repeated often in the film and is especially poignat at the end. My problem is it basically a pop hook, it's really one chord chnage, no real melody, that's it. One hopes that a score has more than one nice theme/motif

[chocothrax]

I don't know that I said Elfman isn't any good. In fact, I admitted that most of my dismissal of him is based on jealousy because he's workin' and I'm not and I think I'm better

However, Elfman just doesn't do it for me. For example, I just saw Scissorhands the other day, I know the theme that's being referred to, it is repeated often in the film and is especially poignat at the end. My problem is it basically a pop hook, it's really one chord chnage, no real melody, that's it. One hopes that a score has more than one nice theme/motif

Whoa better than the god Elfman? Where is your music at maybe i'll love it!

[shnurgle]

Choc, with all respect my brother, you gotta realize that nobody can possibly like Elfman as much as you do, and that's ok. You don't have to get all snarly and uncomfy when someone says The Elf's total sauce. It's all good dude, no worries.

http://www.icecreamusa.com/products/images/large/70547-01498_large.jpg????

[chocothrax]

Couldn't you see I was merely super excited that I finally have found a composer that's better than Elfman?

[shnurgle]

I know, I know. I was really just looking for an excuse to paste up my high res image of the Choc Tahk, my brother.

[WoodIsGood]

I don't know that I said Elfman isn't any good. In fact, I admitted that most of my dismissal of him is based on jealousy because he's workin' and I'm not and I think I'm better . . .

WOW!! That's a huge statement. If you think you are better than Elfman you better start meeting people who are making short films or documentaries or something and get to work, start playing them your stuff. I don't mean to sound like a jerk here because I don't know you or your work and the internet is a dangerous place to voice opinions, but writing good music and scoring a film are very different tasks. Have you ever scored a film? I mean actually sat down with a producer/director and talked about what they want the music to do for their film, how they want it to enhance the drama on-screen and then sit down with the film and make your music fit the images, and then have them tell you it doesn't work - start over? It ain't that easy. I don't mean to insult you because you may have done this and you may be really good, but that's a HUGE statement to make.

[TheVamp]

About the Oscars®, it's a popularity contest, plain and simple. In no way is it indicative of quality, especially in the film music category. Composers nominate, the entire Academy votes and that's where it all goes balls up. I mean, A Little Romance over Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Fame over The Empire Strikes Back? You've gotta be fucking kidding me. :mad:

[Daryl]

Whoa better than the god Elfman? Where is your music at maybe i'll love it!
The point is give any one here the team that composers like Elfman have, and a good sounding score will be the result.

D

[drew]

About the Oscars®, it's a popularity contest, plain and simple. In no way is it indicative of quality, especially in the film music category. Composers nominate, the entire Academy votes and that's where it all goes balls up. I mean, A Little Romance over Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Fame over The Empire Strikes Back? You've gotta be fucking kidding me. :mad:


Whoa, watch the language dude!

You're obviously upset over this, but I'd rather listen to just about anything than Trek and Empire. Give me Silvestri or Isham any day over that stuff - it just makes me laugh. Shouldn't take it so personally, it's just music.

[doug hazelrigg]

WOW!! That's a huge statement. If you think you are better than Elfman you better start meeting people who are making short films or documentaries or something and get to work, start playing them your stuff. I don't mean to sound like a jerk here because I don't know you or your work and the internet is a dangerous place to voice opinions, but writing good music and scoring a film are very different tasks. Have you ever scored a film? I mean actually sat down with a producer/director and talked about what they want the music to do for their film, how they want it to enhance the drama on-screen and then sit down with the film and make your music fit the images, and then have them tell you it doesn't work - start over? It ain't that easy. I don't mean to insult you because you may have done this and you may be really good, but that's a HUGE statement to make.

Not insulted at all (I said I'd be laughed to derision). It's a gratuitous statement for me to make anyway, given the anonimity and insulation of the Internet. And having only posted a few things here (search if curious).

But why is that a HUGE statement to make? BOLD maybe, not huge, really. Like I said, within reason, EVERYBODY should hold their own art in high regard. I'm realistic about it -- I've heard some things done by Shore, Williams, Hermann, et al, that I instinctively knew was beyond me. I've just heard quite a bit of Elfman and after comparing to my own stuff find mine "better." Scoring of course is MUCH more involved than just writing some good music, but THAT process has never been easier.

I think much of what goes on in Hollywood as little to do with "quality" but with such things as one-upsmanship, following the trends, and playing it safe.

But you're right, without "credentials" it's really just blather

[doug hazelrigg]

About the Oscars®, it's a popularity contest, plain and simple. In no way is it indicative of quality, especially in the film music category. Composers nominate, the entire Academy votes and that's where it all goes balls up. I mean, A Little Romance over Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Fame over The Empire Strikes Back? You've gotta be fucking kidding me. :mad:

What you're basically saying is that the people who vote for these things don't have the intelligence or the integrity to pick worthy nominee's or winners... yet peeps like you an I would. I don't buy THAT. Also, cannot quality = popularity?

[doug hazelrigg]

The point is give any one here the team that composers like Elfman have, and a good sounding score will be the result.

D

I wouldn't need a team, LOL

[chocothrax]

Doug I found a piece you posted but the links don't work..

[doug hazelrigg]

Couldn't you see I was merely super excited that I finally have found a composer that's better than Elfman?

I listen to Elfman and I hear:

>melodies that make no musical sense

>cues that don't fit the image or dialogue

>self-borrowing (although others like Williams are equally guilty)

To his credit, he's a true professional, and does occasionally come up with some nice evocative tracks

I'll look a bit more into his work, maybe I'll repent

[doug hazelrigg]

Doug I found a piece you posted but the links don't work..

oh yeah, my domain expired

sorry

[doug hazelrigg]

BTW, one last thing

I'd expect just about EVERYONE who had formal training to be better at scoring than somebody who was in a 3rd rate pop band and somehow stumbled into film scoring and can't even (or won't even) orchestrate their stuff

Now someone will post the usual "formal training does not gaurantee any innate talent, etc." to which I'd respectfully disagree -- very few "get in the door" to begin with without such

[chocothrax]

Great...

[WoodIsGood]

BTW, one last thing

I'd expect just about EVERYONE who had formal training to be better at scoring than somebody who was in a 3rd rate pop band and somehow stumbled into film scoring and can't even (or won't even) orchestrate their stuff

Now someone will post the usual "formal training does not gaurantee any innate talent, etc." to which I'd respectfully disagree -- very few "get in the door" to begin with without such


OK, now we have to hear your stuff! :)

[shnurgle]

Now someone will post the usual "formal training does not gaurantee any innate talent, etc." to which I'd respectfully disagree -- very few "get in the door" to begin with without such

This is false. Today lots of washed up rockers are now "film composers." In fact, if there is one credential that almost guarantees a film scoring carreer, it's "washed-up rocker." Whereas "I studid my cadusia off in school for this" won't even get you a sit down with Chuck Crieg.

[TheVamp]

Whoa, watch the language dude!

You're obviously upset over this, but I'd rather listen to just about anything than Trek and Empire. Give me Silvestri or Isham any day over that stuff - it just makes me laugh. Shouldn't take it so personally, it's just music.

Silvestri or Isham? Over Goldsmith's Trek and William's Empire? And may I ask exactly what is wrong with those scores?

P.S. Sorry about the language, it's my half Sicilian nature! ;)

[dcoscina]

This is false. Today lots of washed up rockers are now "film composers." In fact, if there is one credential that almost guarantees a film scoring carreer, it's "washed-up rocker." Whereas "I studid my cadusia off in school for this" won't even get you a sit down with Chuck Crieg.

yup Shnurg I hear you. In fact, the musical genesis for a rocker is:

a/ garage band
b/ bar gigs
c/ discovered by quirky record company
d/ touring with lots mechandising of aesthetically appealing band members
e/ a couple of scandals with a Hollywood actress
f/ more scandals involving drug abuse
g/ the big come back reunion tour
h/ film scoring
g/ AN OSCAR!

By principle, this kind of thing makes me sick. But practically speaking, I've come to terms with the fact that 80% of people out there are musically uninformed lemmings.

[TheVamp]

What you're basically saying is that the people who vote for these things don't have the intelligence or the integrity to pick worthy nominee's or winners... yet peeps like you an I would. I don't buy THAT. Also, cannot quality = popularity?

I've seen too many Oscars® to put my faith in the collective intelligence of the Academy, but that doesn't mean we'd do any better. As to your second point, popularity does sometimes equal quality, just far too infrequently for my taste.

[TheVamp]

But practically speaking, I've come to terms with the fact that 80% of people out there wouldn't know good music from crap if it crawled up their a$$ and died.

Dammit, that's what I just said!

[dcoscina]

I've seen too many Oscars® to put my faith in the collective intelligence of the Academy, but that doesn't mean we'd do any better. As to your second point, popularity does sometimes equal quality, just far too infrequently for my taste.

Mahler wasn't popular with audiences in his day though. and 60 years later he was found to be one of the most influencial composers to bridge 19th century Romanticism with 20th century Modernism. I would dare say the masses have always been bereft of good musical appreciation and before people chime in and say popularity dictates evolution, it doesn't. Most developments in music over the past 200 years have been from a small group of composers and techniques they developed that were perpetuated by academia (I know that's a filthy word in this board and I really don't know why).

In fact, any significant development in the evolution of our species in general has been in the anals of some lab or someplace removed from the noisy populace. Music, art, filmmaking, etc. are no different. They are applied disciplines as much as science or mathematics are. These days, everyone can afford the proverbial calculator though. Everyone's a genius. Well, I don't buy it.

[dcoscina]

Silvestri or Isham? Over Goldsmith's Trek and William's Empire? And may I ask exactly what is wrong with those scores?

P.S. Sorry about the language, it's my half Sicilian nature! ;)

I agree with you Vamp. Drew, just as a fellow composer to another, if you go onto a film score forum and declare two of the most significant works in recent scoring history as laughable, someone might be compelled to hurl some very very nasty remarks your way. I mean, enjoy listening to what you like but woaw, the kind of music writing going on in Star Trek TMP and Empire is amazing. I like Silvestri and a little Isham but neither of them have written anything in their entire careers that matches Goldsmith's or Williams' magnum opus'. Not musically any how.

[TheVamp]

Mahler wasn't popular with audiences in his day though. and 60 years later he was found to be one of the most influencial composers to bridge 19th century Romanticism with 20th century Modernism. I would dare say the masses have always been bereft of good musical appreciation and before people chime in and say popularity dictates evolution, it doesn't. Most developments in music over the past 200 years have been from a small group of composers and techniques they developed that were perpetuated by academia (I know that's a filthy word in this board and I really don't know why).

In fact, any significant development in the evolution of our species in general has been in the anals of some lab or someplace removed from the noisy populace. Music, art, filmmaking, etc. are no different. They are applied disciplines as much as science or mathematics are. These days, everyone can afford the proverbial calculator though. Everyone's a genius. Well, I don't buy it.

Wow, dude.

OK, not everyone's a genius. However, I think the biggest difference now as compared to then is the tools available to us. I always think of that scene in Fame where Bruno Martelli is arguing with his professor about the use of synths over the orchestra. I remember Martelli saying that if Mozart were alive now, he wouldn't use an orchestra, but do everything with synths. Was he right? And does the proliferation of better and more powerful tools help people make better music? What happens when we have the ability to replicate an orchestra perfectly synthetically? Which I truly believe will happen in our lifetimes.

I'm sorry to say this, David, as I greatly respect you and have nothing but the deepest admiration for your work, but your comments smack somewhat of elitism, and I can't stand that shit. I might not like the noisy populace, but I'll take them over some cold, calculating laboratory scientist. Those fuckers scare me.

[TheVamp]

Oh, crap, I just posted this and here's David agreeing with me just above this post. Crap. :o

[chocothrax]

When this thread is locked I think we'll know who to blame. :)

[TheVamp]

When this thread is locked I think we'll know who to blame. :)

Oh, crap. I think I better go read the rules again... :o

[dcoscina]

hey Vamp, no hard feelings. I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with my opinions about music. Obviously I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder because I did go through the rigor of studying music formally and did have some success at some independent film scores a while back. But I'm so utterly disgusted at the fact that the common mentality is mediocrity. And this is across the board. I honestly think we are de-evolving as a species.

I WANT to hear new pieces by anyone (formal training or not) that blows me out of the water and compells me to do better. Some posters on this forum certainly have done that in regard to approximating a real orchestral sound. But have I really been floored by the musical content? impressed, yes. Floored, no. Where are the modern Beethovens? charles Ives? Prokofievs?

I'll tell you- they don't exist. Most of this is due to North American mentality regarding the arts. If it ain't commerically viable, it's not worth listening to. The masses have indeed taken over. It's a bloody (I'm off the swearing now because I don't wish to be banned) travesty when a composer as renouned as Gabriel Yared is taken off a film after writing the score for a YEAR, creating one of the finest musical pieces I've heard in the 2000s because one twit in the focus group said the music sounded "old fashioned". And so most people never were treated to that amazing score. they missed out. Do you really want these morons deciding what's good or worth hearing and what isn't? I'm not saying let's let the academics decide either but there's been a shift from respect towards those who have toiled and worked towards their craft to utter contempt. Yes, contempt. Why should I or any other trained guy/gal on this board sink behind the auspicies of being an illiterate genius who's just been so blessed by the heavens? That's not right. and I think this lack of respect can be found everywhere in our society. It's truly sad. I was raised to respect those who knew more and to listen to what they had to say because they had more experience. Nowadays, technology has made everyone a "master", at least in their own minds. Where's the humility?

My composition professor in university was a completely AWFUL educator. Attrocious. And I didn't think much of his personality. Kinda like a wet rag. But I never disrespected the immense musical knowledge he possessed because he was a monster (site reading Ives' Concord Sonata is a bloody impossibility for most).

Vamp, I didn't mean to dismiss those out there who are passionate about music and perhaps didn't have access to a more formal education. But, as I said in another thread, it's not neccesarily how you educate yourself but that every one of us keeps trying to push the envelope and broaden our listening tastes.

for the record, I listen to all sorts of music. Linkin Park, Sean Paul, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Shostakovich, John Williams, even Hans Zimmer. Anyone who comes onto the scene that MIGHT have a unique way of doing things is always a good thing. Hans did make an impression years ago. But now he's running a soleless factory. It is an affront to any other composer desperately trying to carve out his/her own style and make a living at writing music. And regardless how interesting Zimmer was or is, he does NOT represent a high water mark for music. Simple triadic music with little to no motivic or thematic development is just not what most would call good. It's passable and our dumbed down society likes this innocuous stuff because it's all the more palpable. God forbid we try to inject something daring into our music lest it upset the delicate ears of the pop listening audience.

Sorry, this is a tirade but one that I honeslty feel has some validity. It may be that I'm the only one that feels this way (on this board) but there are others who also have these concerns and overwhelming sense of dread regarding the direction most artforms are taking in present society.

----th, th, th, that's all folks.

[TheVamp]

Yep, just found it...

"We will not tolerate any profanity..."

Damn it, I love profanity! And the "f" word is so versatile, with such a long a storied history! Maybe if I say it in Latin? "Futuo" just isn't the same, though. Ah, well. Sorry, sorry everyone. :o :o :o

[fongi]

Does somebody happen to know if Hornmeister is in love with Lord Zimmer, I was just curious thats all :rolleyes:
your quote "can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper and then wait to have a real orchestra play it"? can Mr Zimmer do that ? you don´t know that right? an there are many brilliant musicians who can´t even read a note let alone orchestrate something, so what exactly is your point if I may be so bold as to ask?

[TheVamp]

Dave, I know where your coming from. And I agree. I wish I could've heard Yared's score for Troy as I've heard it's amazing and, yes, the way he was treated was a disgrace.

However, we as a species just don't produce that many geniuses. As George Carlin once said, "A few winners, a whole lot of losers."

I agree, though, that we should cherish the ones we do get. Yeah, I liked Zimmer, too when he first started and his sound was his sound. New and exciting. Same with Elfman and Goldenthal.

Still love Backdraft, Batman and Alien 3. They're all on the iPod. Now, I'm just not that into Elfman anymore, I can't stand Zimmer and nothing by Goldenthal recently has grabbed my attention.

How I miss Goldsmith... *sigh*

Well, gotta go... time to go home.

P.S. Don't ban me admins!

[HornMeister]

Does somebody happen to know if Hornmeister is in love with Lord Zimmer, I was just curious thats all :rolleyes:
your quote "can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper and then wait to have a real orchestra play it"? can Mr Zimmer do that ? you don´t know that right? an there are many brilliant musicians who can´t even read a note let alone orchestrate something, so what exactly is your point if I may be so bold as to ask?




not in love with Zimmer

but im pretty sure if he wanted to have a orchestra sitting waiting for his commands

im pretty sure he can have it

and my point is

CAN YOU COMPOSE MUSIC WITHOUT THE HELP OF ELECTRONICS??

not a hard concept to understand.

[HornMeister]

Does somebody happen to know if Hornmeister is in love with Lord Zimmer, I was just curious thats all :rolleyes:



im glad you've resolved to making "jokes" too

very funny

[dcoscina]

Goldenthal has been busy with his opera Grendel. I've heard rehearsals and it sounds good.

I miss Goldsmith too. But more the Jerry from the '70s/80s that authored Papillon, First Blood, Star trek, Wind and the Lion, The Omen (although I prefer The final Conflict), and his last awesome effort Total Recall.

Elfman doesn't do as much for me anymore either for reasons explained earlier.

[TheVamp]

Goldenthal has been busy with his opera Grendel. I've heard rehearsals and it sounds good.

I miss Goldsmith too. But more the Jerry from the '70s/80s that authored Papillon, First Blood, Star trek, Wind and the Lion, The Omen (although I prefer The final Conflict), and his last awesome effort Total Recall.

Elfman doesn't do as much for me anymore either for reasons explained earlier.

Yeah, I know it was his Total Recall experience that kind of soured him on writing dense, complex music again.

However, I also kind of blame Hollywood for subscribing to the fact that the Media Ventures sound is the better way to score movies.

Having said that, I totally dug Timeline. The "Prepare for Battle/Victory for Us" cue is awesome. As is the opening cue, "The Dig." I also really liked Main Title cue from The Sum of All Fears "The Mission."

Goldsmith adapted to many styles throughout his career as different approaches went in and out of vogue in Hollywood and I have the feeling that, had he lived, he would have wowed us with something akin to his glory days.

[drew]

I agree with you Vamp. Drew, just as a fellow composer to another, if you go onto a film score forum and declare two of the most significant works in recent scoring history as laughable, someone might be compelled to hurl some very very nasty remarks your way. I mean, enjoy listening to what you like but woaw, the kind of music writing going on in Star Trek TMP and Empire is amazing. I like Silvestri and a little Isham but neither of them have written anything in their entire careers that matches Goldsmith's or Williams' magnum opus'. Not musically any how.

That's your opinion and of course we are all entitled to one. But those bombastic, over the top scores don't even compare to the subtle, yet incredibly beautiful and poignant scores of Silvestri and Isham, and that's my opinion. And Ottman and Burwell, and many other lesser knowns, but extremely talented and gifted film composers that I believe are the true original and creative film composers of our time. But I like that style - not the overdone, over-borrowed post-romantic ripoffs that dominate so much film music these days - but those who at least attempt to do something different, express their own voice and ideas.

Let's face it, the Williams, Zimmer, Elfman days are numbered and it's time for something new.

[pappagheno]

Yep, just found it...

"We will not tolerate any profanity..."

Damn it, I love profanity! And the "f" word is so versatile, with such a long a storied history! Maybe if I say it in Latin? "Futuo" just isn't the same, though. Ah, well. Sorry, sorry everyone. :o :o :o

maybe fatuo ;)

[pappagheno]

It's a bloody (I'm off the swearing now because I don't wish to be banned) travesty when a composer as renouned as Gabriel Yared is taken off a film after writing the score for a YEAR, creating one of the finest musical pieces I've heard in the 2000s because one twit in the focus group said the music sounded "old fashioned". And so most people never were treated to that amazing score. they missed out. Do you really want these morons deciding what's good or worth hearing and what isn't? I'm not saying let's let the academics decide either but there's been a shift from respect towards those who have toiled and worked towards their craft to utter contempt. Yes, contempt. Why should I or any other trained guy/gal on this board sink behind the auspicies of being an illiterate genius who's just been so blessed by the heavens? That's not right. and I think this lack of respect can be found everywhere in our society. It's truly sad. I was raised to respect those who knew more and to listen to what they had to say because they had more experience. Nowadays, technology has made everyone a "master", at least in their own minds. Where's the humility?

My composition professor in university was a completely AWFUL educator. Attrocious. And I didn't think much of his personality. Kinda like a wet rag. But I never disrespected the immense musical knowledge he possessed because he was a monster (site reading Ives' Concord Sonata is a bloody impossibility for most).

Vamp, I didn't mean to dismiss those out there who are passionate about music and perhaps didn't have access to a more formal education. But, as I said in another thread, it's not neccesarily how you educate yourself but that every one of us keeps trying to push the envelope and broaden our listening tastes.

for the record, I listen to all sorts of music. Linkin Park, Sean Paul, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Shostakovich, John Williams, even Hans Zimmer. Anyone who comes onto the scene that MIGHT have a unique way of doing things is always a good thing. Hans did make an impression years ago. But now he's running a soleless factory. It is an affront to any other composer desperately trying to carve out his/her own style and make a living at writing music. And regardless how interesting Zimmer was or is, he does NOT represent a high water mark for music. Simple triadic music with little to no motivic or thematic development is just not what most would call good. It's passable and our dumbed down society likes this innocuous stuff because it's all the more palpable. God forbid we try to inject something daring into our music lest it upset the delicate ears of the pop listening audience.


what is wrong with Vangelis :)
didnt even see the crappy Alexander.. but i am talking about Blade runner..

what this suff about what you write with cubase or whatever cannot be replicate with an orchestra ?
I mean.. if u ever read a book of composition u will understand that violins can go Divisi but not "schizoid.." I dont think that the computer is for the fatty lazy guys ..as every tool depends how u use it..

I mean ..ok , there will be t ocahnge some detail.. but not everything..

for the question can u compose without the computer.. for the guys that lives in the states .. can u go to work without using your car :) ( or any public transport ?)

then .. what about Garbarek ? that's what i could call new music ( ok not extremely new..).. but the "big audience " dont feel that much that style even if they use his music a lot on films..

then Mozart versus Bartok... ey is not fair... bartok heard the work of mozart.. the contest couldnt be equal :)

btw..anybody going to the RHO to see Bluebeard's Castle the end of the month ?

:)

[dcoscina]

And Ottman and Burwell, and many other lesser knowns, but extremely talented and gifted film composers that I believe are the true original and creative film composers of our time. But I like that style - not the overdone, over-borrowed post-romantic ripoffs that dominate so much film music these days - but those who at least attempt to do something different, express their own voice and ideas.

Let's face it, the Williams, Zimmer, Elfman days are numbered and it's time for something new.

Ottman is basically a film score fan who happened to get in good with Bryan Singer (as an editor) and ended up scoring his films. Ask any orchestrator in Hollywood and they'll tell you this guy isn't talented- and really cannot compose orchestral music at all.

[TheVamp]

That's your opinion and of course we are all entitled to one. But those bombastic, over the top scores don't even compare to the subtle, yet incredibly beautiful and poignant scores of Silvestri and Isham, and that's my opinion. And Ottman and Burwell, and many other lesser knowns, but extremely talented and gifted film composers that I believe are the true original and creative film composers of our time. But I like that style - not the overdone, over-borrowed post-romantic ripoffs that dominate so much film music these days - but those who at least attempt to do something different, express their own voice and ideas.

Let's face it, the Williams, Zimmer, Elfman days are numbered and it's time for something new.

Not every part of Empire and Trek was "bombastic" and "over the top." There are some quite beautiful, lryical passages in both of those scores. The bombast was dictated by the needs of those films, in my opinion. I mean, how else would your score Klingons battling an omnipotent cloud or hundred foot tall armored walking tanks stalking across a snowy landscape, with lutes and harps?

Of course, you're right when you say It's all a matter of opinion. However, I don't think Hollywood is going to let go of bombastic, over the top film scoring in the immediate future. I think we'll have the Zimmer and Elfman sound for a while (though, as I said before, they are no longer to my taste) and, not to be morbid, but the only thing that's gonna stop Williams any time soon is his death. That will be sad day indeed.

I also don't know what you think is going to change Hollywood's taste in film music. We've had this kind of thing almost since film music was invented. Does Korngold, Steiner, Newman and Rózsa fall into your "overdone, over-borrowed post-romantic ripoff" category as well? I like Silvestri, Isham, Ottman and Burwell too, but they don't compare to Williams, Goldsmith, Barry, Morricone and Schifrin. Again, that's my opinion.

I have a feeling I'm not alone here, but one thing I don't subscribe to is the notion that popularity equals quality, as has been discussed previously in this thread.

[White Noise]

Ottman is basically a film score fan who happened to get in good with Bryan Singer (as an editor) and ended up scoring his films. Ask any orchestrator in Hollywood and they'll tell you this guy isn't talented- and really cannot compose orchestral music at all.

Interesting. I'm not sure I know many orchestrators in Hollywood that have gone on the record to bash any of the composers for whom they have worked. Doesn't help to get repeat business.

And actually, it was Singer who got in with Ottman after seeing a film that Ottman had written, directed, edited and then scored. Okay so the guy may be a jack of all trades (master of none I would debate) but let's not get into unilaterally deciding who does or doesn't have talent. No Ottman doesn't appear to have a degree (I do) in music, but, frankly I am of the opinion that your instincts for writing music for film are more important than where you where or how you were schooled.

[White Noise]

I don't subscribe to is the notion that popularity equals quality, as has been discussed previously in this thread.

I agree, but...

To draw a comparison to food: I love french food. I love going to a Michelin starred restaurant and having a carefully crafted, culturally rich meal. I like things like fois gras and caviar, braised pheasant etc. But sometimes I want a really good burger. Nothing sophisticated, just a really meaty burger. Simple, to the point and addresses a craving I've been having. And if done well, this fictional burger I'm describing, can rank as high in my all time greatist hits of wonderful meals.

Yes sometimes I want to be challenged by the film music I'm listening to. Not too challenged mind, because we all know that the music shouldn't detract from the images on screen, but, a little challenged. I want there to be some interesting thematic development. I want the harmonies and instrumentation used to be create a complex sonority that will withstand hours of analysis. I want to be forced into a position where I can't find the 1st beat of the bar.

And sometimes I just want a burger.

[WoodIsGood]

. . . Yes sometimes I want to be challenged by the film music I'm listening to. Not too challenged mind, because we all know that the music shouldn't detract from the images on screen, but, a little challenged. I want there to be some interesting thematic development. I want the harmonies and instrumentation used to be create a complex sonority that will withstand hours of analysis. I want to be forced into a position where I can't find the 1st beat of the bar.

And sometimes I just want a burger.

Very good analogy; you have a way with words. It is true, we all have our guilty pleasures in life and in music. There's nothing wrong with admitting you like things purely because they sound good to your ears.

[TheVamp]

No Ottman doesn't appear to have a degree (I do) in music, but, frankly I am of the opinion that your instincts for writing music for film are more important than where you where or how you were schooled.

Yes sometimes I want to be challenged by the film music I'm listening to. Not too challenged mind, because we all know that the music shouldn't detract from the images on screen, but, a little challenged. I want there to be some interesting thematic development. I want the harmonies and instrumentation used to be create a complex sonority that will withstand hours of analysis. I want to be forced into a position where I can't find the 1st beat of the bar.

And sometimes I just want a burger.

I agree with both these statements, especially the former. When someone hires Zimmer, Elfman or Ottman, or any other composer without formal training, they're hiring them for their sensibilites, not just their ability to create music. Not only that, but I'm sure Bruckheimer, Burton and Singer have such an easy rapport with these guys now, that they must be speaking some kind of shorthand, which would make the job much easier on both parties.
Do I prefer classically trained composers in film music? Mostly. And sometimes I just want a burger. ;)

[shnurgle]

That's your opinion and of course we are all entitled to one. But those bombastic, over the top scores don't even compare to the subtle, yet incredibly beautiful and poignant scores of Silvestri and Isham, and that's my opinion. And Ottman and Burwell, and many other lesser knowns, but extremely talented and gifted film composers that I believe are the true original and creative film composers of our time. But I like that style - not the overdone, over-borrowed post-romantic ripoffs that dominate so much film music these days - but those who at least attempt to do something different, express their own voice and ideas.

Let's face it, the Williams, Zimmer, Elfman days are numbered and it's time for something new.

I'm sorry, but you're showing a lot of ignorance here. Silvestri (who I love by the way) made a career out of copying Williams' sound in the 80's, so i wouldn't be so quick to hail him as a great original.
If you think Williams is all brass fanfare than you really shouldn't talk about him, because you obviously haven't done the listening yet. Indeed he is the most versatile writer in Hollywood, to the point that I am still surprised to find that he wrote certain scores (because they are so unlike his others), which is something you cannot say of Elfman, Horner, Zimmer, Burwell... Williams is equally comfortable writing lyric melodies as he is writing sophisticated 20th century harmonic material. He can write in almost any style extremely well as a matter of fact, so lumping him into the same group as Elfman and Zimmer (both of whom I admire for different reasons) is inappropriate and naive. Williams is from a completely different generation and background. He is not a rocker-turned-film composer, and I think his music is evidence enough of that fact.

There's room for everyone, from the limited like Burwell to he unlimited like Goldsmith, but I don't think that the limited are necessarily the wave of the future. And if they are, I don't necessarily think that's anything to be excited about.

[chocothrax]

That's your opinion and of course we are all entitled to one. But those bombastic, over the top scores don't even compare to the subtle, yet incredibly beautiful and poignant scores of Silvestri and Isham, and that's my opinion. And Ottman and Burwell, and many other lesser knowns, but extremely talented and gifted film composers that I believe are the true original and creative film composers of our time. But I like that style - not the overdone, over-borrowed post-romantic ripoffs that dominate so much film music these days - but those who at least attempt to do something different, express their own voice and ideas.

Let's face it, the Williams, Zimmer, Elfman days are numbered and it's time for something new.

Well we all like different things. I happen to like big over the top scores. I can't stand Ottman and Burwell.

[Edx]

Do I prefer classically trained composers in film music? Mostly. And sometimes I just want a burger. ;)

Exactly! Somtimes I really just want a fracking mcdonalds!

[HornMeister]

no clue this was going to get so big

when do the moderators lock this?

[dcoscina]

no clue this was going to get so big

when do the moderators lock this?

It seems as though the moderators are so involved with the development of the upcoming Qcontrol that this and the other thread that involved expletives went unnoticed. I don't think a thread gets locked because of length but because it's degenerated into a flame war. that's usually the criteria that warrants locking threads. :)

[doug hazelrigg]

It seems as though the moderators are so involved with the development of the upcoming Qcontrol that this and the other thread that involved expletives went unnoticed. I don't think a thread gets locked because of length but because it's degenerated into a flame war. that's usually the criteria that warrants locking threads. :)

Qu'est-ce c'est, "QControl?"

[dcoscina]

Qu'est-ce c'est, "QControl?"

just wait. it will change everything.

p.s. I'm just b.s.ing here. I have no real idea what Qcontrol entails but it should be amazing based on the very little Doug has said about it.

[TheVamp]

It seems as though the moderators are so involved with the development of the upcoming Qcontrol that this and the other thread that involved expletives went unnoticed. I don't think a thread gets locked because of length but because it's degenerated into a flame war. that's usually the criteria that warrants locking threads. :)

Here, I'll try locking the thread...

FRAK! FRAKKITY! FRAK!

Anything happen?

[drew]

Ottman is basically a film score fan who happened to get in good with Bryan Singer (as an editor) and ended up scoring his films. Ask any orchestrator in Hollywood and they'll tell you this guy isn't talented- and really cannot compose orchestral music at all.

And what are orchestrators - composers who couldn't cut it. Who listens to them, anyways - not directors, that's for sure. Being a good film composer isn't just about orchestral music, or being the most talented. As a skilled edtor, he knows film and he knows what works where. That's what directors crave. The valley is littered with so-called talented composers who just don't get it.

[drew]

I'm sorry, but you're showing a lot of ignorance here. Silvestri (who I love by the way) made a career out of copying Williams' sound in the 80's, so i wouldn't be so quick to hail him as a great original.
If you think Williams is all brass fanfare than you really shouldn't talk about him, because you obviously haven't done the listening yet. Indeed he is the most versatile writer in Hollywood, to the point that I am still surprised to find that he wrote certain scores (because they are so unlike his others), which is something you cannot say of Elfman, Horner, Zimmer, Burwell... Williams is equally comfortable writing lyric melodies as he is writing sophisticated 20th century harmonic material. He can write in almost any style extremely well as a matter of fact, so lumping him into the same group as Elfman and Zimmer (both of whom I admire for different reasons) is inappropriate and naive. Williams is from a completely different generation and background. He is not a rocker-turned-film composer, and I think his music is evidence enough of that fact.

There's room for everyone, from the limited like Burwell to he unlimited like Goldsmith, but I don't think that the limited are necessarily the wave of the future. And if they are, I don't necessarily think that's anything to be excited about.

Ahh, did I ruffle some feathers here? Pretty strong words for ol shnurg!

Just get tired of reading how everyone constantly gushes over JW, DE et al.

Thought I'd give some of the other guys a little press - and it worked!

[dcoscina]

And what are orchestrators - composers who couldn't cut it. Who listens to them, anyways - not directors, that's for sure. Being a good film composer isn't just about orchestral music, or being the most talented. As a skilled edtor, he knows film and he knows what works where. That's what directors crave. The valley is littered with so-called talented composers who just don't get it.

This sounds like a pretty feeble rationalization to me. Orchestrators aren't necessarily "failed composers". I certainly wouldn't file greats like Grieg McRitchie or Arthur Morton under this, both of whom had a significant impact on the music of Goldsmith's, Poledouris', Barry's, and more. Then there's Nicholas Dodd who obviously is ghost-writing a lot more than most know. Take out Stargate and listen to it. Music officially by David Arnold. Then listen to Jeff Danna's Gospel Of John. totally separate time periods, subject matter and DIFFERENT COMPOSERS- however, the sound and stylistic elements are almost identical. I had to make sure I wasn't listening to David Arnold when I put on Gospel of John.

I still fail to understand this incredible resistence to acknowledging who's got their stuff together when it comes to chops and which composers made it into the field because of an over dependancy on technology.

[PPH]

No but hired orchestrators could. Orchestrators can work miracles my friend. Look at Clint Mansell and his score for Sahara, it's a good score and sounds like David Arnold because Nicholas Dodd was the orchestrator. Watch the extras on The Lion King as Zimmer plays on his keyboard and then contrast that with the finished music. Did Zimmer fix that up or just send off the midifiles to someone...dunno. :) I can write music if the electricity goes out...if I have a backup generator! Or Nick Dodd chained up in my basement. To quote Danny Elfman in sort of his exact words- A kid and his dog could write great music if he had an orchestrator.

Yeah. And he (I mean Danny Elfman) has an orchestrator (I don't remember the name, but it's one of his mates at Oingo Boingo), although I suspect he chooses many of the sounds that go in the end.

Anyway, I don't think there is any sense in criticizing a composer for using electronic sounds. Electronic sounds are as valid as common instruments, and they require as much knowledge. And I'm not saying this to defend Zimmer. He sometimes seems to turn on the autopilot for action movies, but his soundtracks for other movies, the ones that are different (say "As Good As It Gets", for example) are great. I can understand those who say, for example, that John Williams is better. He is, after all, a great composer. But if he is better than Zimmer, it's not because Zimmer uses electronic material. Williams too (and Goldsmith, and Maurice Jarre) has used electronic sounds in his scores. Electronic sounds are an additional option, and sometimes are better suited, depending on the kind of movie. So, it would be foolish to dismiss them. There is no valid reason for doing it.

[chocothrax]

This sounds like a pretty feeble rationalization to me. Orchestrators aren't necessarily "failed composers". I certainly wouldn't file greats like Grieg McRitchie or Arthur Morton under this, both of whom had a significant impact on the music of Goldsmith's, Poledouris', Barry's, and more. Then there's Nicholas Dodd who obviously is ghost-writing a lot more than most know. Take out Stargate and listen to it. Music officially by David Arnold. Then listen to Jeff Danna's Gospel Of John. totally separate time periods, subject matter and DIFFERENT COMPOSERS- however, the sound and stylistic elements are almost identical. I had to make sure I wasn't listening to David Arnold when I put on Gospel of John.

I still fail to understand this incredible resistence to acknowledging who's got their stuff together when it comes to chops and which composers made it into the field because of an over dependancy on technology.

Have you heard what Nicholas Dodd did for Clint Mansell's Sahara? Oh and Dodd actually says he did some composing for Stargate in an interview.

[dcoscina]

Have you heard what Nicholas Dodd did for Clint Mansell's Sahara? Oh and Dodd actually says he did some composing for Stargate in an interview.

I haven't but I like his work. I also didn't know he composed part of Stargate. Cool.

[nikolas]

Off Topic:

WOW. To the Platinum members and higher: Is this the bigest thread in these forums, or not yet?

(useless post really :D:D:D:D)

[doug hazelrigg]

ALL these composers have talent. If they didn't, they wouldn't be where they are today. I laugh at the prevailing but uninformed opinion that the players in Hollywood (and New York and Nashville) don't know what is good and what isn't. There are some VERY SMART and TALENTED people in these industries. Of course, they suffer from their fair share of insularity, often it's ego that drives decisions, etc. But it's liek that in ANY large business segment.

Elfman has indeed got talent (along with Zimmer, etc.). His style just isn't my cup o tea. He has found a niche and he works well within it. But there's some things he couldn't hack. Plus, in the 15-20 years he's been scoring, he could have learned how to orchestrate.

Also, I GLADLY fulfill the role of an orchestrator. One has to make a living, you know. Orchestrating is probably the best springboard into steady work as a film composer, right? Don't knock those guys

[dcoscina]

ALL these composers have talent. If they didn't, they wouldn't be where they are today. I laugh at the prevailing but uninformed opinion that the players in Hollywood (and New York and Nashville) don't know what is good and what isn't. There are some VERY SMART and TALENTED people in these industries. Of course, they suffer from their fair share of insularity, often it's ego that drives decisions, etc. But it's liek that in ANY large business segment.



Doug, may I asked what you based your supposedly informed opinion on? Is this just a presumption or do you know people working in the industry?

[doug hazelrigg]

Wait a second

If you're questioning what I'm saying (which of course is fair) then you are by inference suggesting that industry players often don't have the integrity or intelligence to know good from bad... but that we posters on an Internet Forum do.

Is THAT logical?

Not the part that we posters know good from bad... most of us do... what I find illogical is this oft-expressed idea that "industry suits" don't know their asses from their elbows when it comes to creative things... that's HOGWASH (in general)

In what way would one need to be an "insider" to know this? Without question, some who are successful in the career of film composing achieved success through factors other than talent, but that's not to say they have NO talent... that just isn't logical, especially when large sums of money are involved.

It is also true that there are many who have NOT achieved success as film composers but who are actually very talented, maybe more so than those who are successful. I'd inlcude some of you that hang out here among such.

Aren't these things self-evident? Help me out here

[dcoscina]

It seems to me most in this discussion talk as if they had some foothold within the industry but if we're all checking pedigrees here then let's have it.

Maybe we should all qualify our opinions with the transparency of our work resumes.

I only asked because Doug couched his statement as a proclamation, not an opinion. There are plenty of amazingly talented composers NOT working in Hollywood because they haven't had the connections that some of these guys have had. That doesn't make them any less talented. I still refuse to subscribe to this populist mentality that popularity = excellence. Sorry, that's my philosophy, opinion, whatever. And note that I personal each of my opinions. Obviously perspectives vary but I'm quite intrigued by the reticence of guys like Shnurgle or Scott Rogers (where did he go???) who obviously DO work in the industry and have a much more informed point of view.

For the record, I work in a peripheral field to film scoring. I do know quite a bit of what goes on in the industry.

[doug hazelrigg]

BTW

I have relationships with a fair number of people who work in both the recording industry as well as the film industry. None of them are household names

>Brad Dutz, good childhood friend who is an LA percusionist who has worked on a lot of major release soundtracks (like Star Trek) and albums (Alanis, Kiss, etc.)
>Bob Dennis, good childhood friend who works for LucasFilm in the dubbing dept, or did, I hear he's moved on
>David Williams, a childhood friend who is a successful Hollywood producer
>John Condon one of my best childhood friends who is a fairly well known Nashville producer (Randy Travis, et al)
>Mike Elliott, deceased former Nashville session player and Internet acquaitance -- I learned a lot from him
>Jim Culbertson, very good friend and former teacher and Brian Culbertson's dad
>my brother, who was in an band on Virgin records, hung out with many "name" groups with him, saw and heard a lot
>acquaintance of Jay Bennett of Wilco fame
>several friends who are successful Nashville songwriters
>a couple acquaintances who are same
>lastly... I knew Elvis and dated Madonna :)

[doug hazelrigg]

I only asked because Doug couched his statement as a proclamation, not an opinion. There are plenty of amazingly talented composers NOT working in Hollywood because they haven't had the connections that some of these guys have had. That doesn't make them any less talented. I still refuse to subscribe to this populist mentality that popularity = excellence. Sorry, that's my philosophy, opinion, whatever. And note that I personal each of my opinions. Obviously perspectives vary but I'm quite intrigued by the reticence of guys like Shnurgle or Scott Rogers (where did he go???) who obviously DO work in the industry and have a much more informed point of view.

For the record, I work in a peripheral field to film scoring. I do know quite a bit of what goes on in the industry.

Fair enough... but isn't an opinion USUALLY expressed as a proclamation?

My take is you're approaching what I said from the opposite direction. If I say that people who work in the industry are talented, in what way does that say that people who don't are not? Without question, it takes a good deal of pure LUCK and connections to arrive at the higher plateaus

I think we're probably largely in agreement

[dcoscina]

that's very cool Doug. Seriously. I don't care if I haven't heard these people's names, they are working in the industry and that's excellent. So many unsung heroes in Hollywood IMO.

I've interviewed and spoken with a number of composers (and have had colleagues who have too) and the one thing about all these guys is they are pretty humble. Ottman never proclaimed himself to be great. He loves film scores and apparently knows tons about its history and many composers. He's the ultimate fan. It's similar to James Levine who loved Mahler's 2nd Symphony to the point where he just had to conduct it. He had no formal training and of course the critics were appauled by the prospect of a regular guy tackling such a big work, but nonetheless he did it.

It sounds like I'm doing a 180 here but I'm not. I would never slight anyone who wanted to do something they loved. But I would hope they would continue to develop or get better at their art. No one comes out of the gates full steam (except Mozart and Mendelsohnn who were genius'). Williams had to develope. I like Giacchino and have heard him develop in the short time he's been around. But there are some composers like Ottman whom I don't hear that kind of genesis happening. And that does bother me. They are in positions to affect other composers and people with their music. Some films obviously don't allow for great innovations in music but other composers seem to sneak them in anyhow. I mean, Goldenthal came onto the scene in 1992 with Alien3 and influenced a ton of composers with his modernist tendencies to the point where every director in Hollywood seemed to want wildly glissando-ing horns and aleatoric wind passages in their scores.

I guess what I'm saying is great composers always find a way to make their personal stamp regardless of the limits put onto them by the system. Other composers seem to just barely live up to the status quo.

[dcoscina]

why do you have to have a chip on your shoulder to be critical or perhaps a little idealistic towards the art of film scoring? I fail to see the correlation.

[dcoscina]

For the record, you may be peripheral to scoring but you might not have a clue as to what happens inside the "creative" meetings between directors, producers, music supervisors, editors and onscreen talent and lastly composers. You judge based upon final on air product without giving any collective consideration to the fact that many times the composer is asked to dumb down and dilute some of his/ her better work.

Um, I've actually had the opportunity to interview composers so I get pretty detailed explanations of the process.

Also, I have scored films myself. I know the politics and dynamics that are involved.

[Edx]

Also, I have scored films myself. I know the politics and dynamics that are involved.

Unless they had some reasonable budget I doubt thats the same thing at all.

[HornMeister]

There are many different levels to being inside the game. And if you're functioning as a journalist (this could be a misinterpretation on my part of your use of the word "Interview"), would you expect anything but the most precursory explanation of the process when it comes to the inner battles? I personally wouldn't say anything in interview that could be interpreted as biting the hand that feeds me. As far as your own personal experience, have you yet had to balance a project that included the studio, the director, several producers including "talent" that are also on the producer line, possibly a network not to mention the advertising department? It's an entirely different beast to appreciate once you're embroiled within the numerous forces that come into play on that level. We're not talking about 5 folks or less. In many instances there are notes coming from people you never meet, phone calls coming from offices you've never heard of before. So you might have more experience then most folks here...but certainly not all involved in this discussion.

Regarding this from your earlier post:

"why do you have to have a chip on your shoulder to be critical or perhaps a little idealistic towards the art of film scoring? "

Your idealism is in this instance misplaced. You can bemoan the lack of artistic merit in film music but you have to admit that this instance is analogous to complaining about a farm because it's dirty. In the entertainment world, art happens in spite of the constraints but many times is literally squashed because of the process. If you were drawing your conclusions based upon the absolutes of all musical people in an entirely musical world, that would be fair game but this is not that instance.

We ALL hear music from folks we feel don't deserve the attention they're getting. Even DE or Zimmer probably feel that Thomas Newman is a one-trick pony from their perspective. Still, these folks probably have some respect for the forces and pressures their colleagues are under....something many in this forum seem to lack in spite of having NOTHING to show for their efforts. It isn't that the world has no place for critics...just that in the real world those who do should always have more respect then those that make pithy observations. At least that's the way I try and approach my world. But then again, that's just my opinion based upon the very limited experience of my life. But consider this; in another thread in this forum people are discussing the idea of orchestrating their way through a common melody. Mentions of deadline as if they have no idea how fast the business really moves once the gig is on. How many here have had to turn in 30 cues, fully broadcast ready within 24 hours or less? How many here have had 6 to 8 minutes of orchestral music conducter ready within 12 hours? Sometimes...MANY TIMES the choice is not "how good" but "how soon" and I think the ability to not wilt under this pressure separates the least of these pros you criticize from most of the folks here. Not trying to knock the forum but who amongst this discussion have even alluded to deadline?

Look, if you want my personal perspective based upon where I really work and where I'm really coming from, feel free to message me through private. I'm not here to imply anything but if you want to understand my first hand knowledge of the subject, you're welcome to probe further....one on one where it isn't an instance of two dolts pissing into the wind.


this cat is on point
I agree on you on a lot of these points
People are always going to be critics its part of life.
But if those guys are up there and selling and winning awards then there must be something in them that brought them up to that point.In a lot of cases it is talent but occasionally you have the ones who went up via the connection super highway. But at the same time if they are producing good music. Music that inspires us, music that makes us think. Then you know what they are doing something right and we should just live one with it. We can judge any of them because unless someone here has worked for a big film studio. Or if someone here has worked with Ron Howard or Steven Spielberg then no one really knows what the composers who work with them have to go through.Not to mention all the copyright laws that they have to know. Protection schemes. Directors who dispise what they wrote...... it must be a hard job. But they go through it all to deliver to listeners like us amazing music that continues to evolve day by day.

We should get Zimmer or Williams maybe Elfman to post something on this forum.:D

Again I had no idea that a simple question such as "can you compose without the help of electronic?" would grow up to such a deep informative,angry at times and even educational topic.

Wonder where its going to go to next.

Btw does anyone know what exactlly is QControl?

[Kaatza_Music]

Yes, I can orchestrate with only a pen and paper, I did it for about 20 years.

When I started composing there was a certain anticipation about hearing my work performed by a choir, orchestra, or quartet. I composed on paper, usually with the help of a piano. But I never had enough hands or was coordinated enough to play all of the parts :D

I was estatic when I got my first sequencer which was a Roland JX-3P keyboard. It was primitive, I could only do maybe an 8 or 16 bar phrase at a time. I used to record sections on my Fostex A8 and then spice them all together. I recorded live instruments over the splices to help cover them up, though I got to be really good with a razor blade and splicing block. Then I got a Yamaha QX21 and I could sequence a whole song, what a breakthrough! Now it is a brave new world. All I need is EWQLSO, some Soma and everything is beautiful. :p

[sinkd]

It's similar to James Levine who loved Mahler's 2nd Symphony to the point where he just had to conduct it. He had no formal training and of course the critics were appauled by the prospect of a regular guy tackling such a big work, but nonetheless he did it.


Of course you are referring to Gilbert Kaplan. Jimmy Levine had lots of formal training :) In fact, Levine and I had the same piano teacher.*

*Long story, meaningless connection.

DS

[dcoscina]

Of course you are referring to Gilbert Kaplan. Jimmy Levine had lots of formal training :) In fact, Levine and I had the same piano teacher.*

*Long story, meaningless connection.

DS

oops. Yes, that's who I meant. Too...many...names....cannot....remember....them.. .all

[Australian_Composer]

Since there are people who bash ZImmer for using electronics on his work. Let me ask you all a question. Can YOU compose when the power goes out? Honestly can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper and then wait to have a real orchestra play it?.....didnt think so. Personally I think Zimmer is amazing and I look at it like this. If the technology is there then use it. If its going to make you better then go ahead. And all in all the electronics are still there but you still have to be a COMPOSER to write in the right notes so that eveyrthihng sounds great. A computer can;t orchestrate a 45 min long symphony so stop Bashing him. You going to bash a eye doctor for using a presice laser to cut through a vein instead of his own hands......didnt think so.


Can YOU compose when the power goes out?


Australian_Composer responds: Yes I am blessed with those skills also! but the world is big enough for all types of music. i.e. it's all in the ears of the behearer!

Good luck to any one trying there utmost whatever way they can!

[gstitt]

As long as I had a piano in front of me, I could come up with some decent kind of orchestration. However, technology allows me to try out more ideas, instead of just having to rely on techniques that I know will work. I would never bash someone for using technology to improve their creative process, unless it was the technology itself feeding ideas.

[Peterkjones]

Well... this is by far the most intelligent, challenging, stimulating and all-round ace thread that's ever been started on this site and must NOT be locked under any circumstances. A credit to all of you... Here's a thing. For me, a life-long singer, conductor and composer there is one insoluble and maddening mystery, the human mind. Why is it that when the solemn low strings start the big fugue which starts Bach's B Minor Mass you absolutely know that you are in the presence of a great creative spirit, that this idea is FULL of something that is going to take twenty minutes to argue out (and it does!) - you don't have to like it, it may not push your button, but you recognise that a heart is beating. Similarly, when the strings start Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik you know that it's a jolly little thing which is going to entertain for three minutes or so, and that he intended it to be no more than that, "a little night music." The quality of the IDEA is all. The maddening thing for most of us is, how did they do it? Why can't we? It doesn't mean they're necessarliy very nice or good people, in fact history often suggests the opposite, but they seem to have a hot-line to God. It eventually seems to have driven Salieri mad (see Amadeus) and, reading this thread, it sometimes seems that madness lies in wait for us all, for the problem is there for all sorts and conditions of men and music. From Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man to the opening riff of Lennon's Imagine, the same sort of hook is at work - and where would the Beatles have gone without Sir George Martin? In art, Rubens had an army of studio assistants to fill in the yards of lace on his big pictures - Canterbury cathedral was built by William of Sens but he had legions of stonemasons we know nothing about to realise his masterpiece. We still need skilled artisans, but would be still try to build such a building with lumber and hemp intead of steel scaffolding? Of course not, so why criticise modern instruments and a horde of skilled assistants? And there's always serendipity - do you know Arthur Sullivan's old warhorse "The Lost Chord"? Many's the time I've stumbled across something I didn't intend to do while faffing about with my sequencer/samples, then recognised that it was right and that it came from somewhere inside at another level. The difference being, I don't have seventy-five jeering musicians staring at me while I try to make up my mind. Well. that's enough - keep it going. (In passing, this 67 yr-old is having a ball dealing with the new technology and reading your spirited stuff) Much love out there...

[shnurgle]

Well... this is by far the most intelligent, challenging, stimulating and all-round ace thread that's ever been started on this site

Uh, obviously, you missed this one:
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=1679

[Peterkjones]

Yep! I have to confess, this one slipped by me!!

[HornMeister]

Well... this is by far the most intelligent, challenging, stimulating and all-round ace thread that's ever been started on this site and must NOT be locked under any circumstances. A credit to all of you... Here's a thing. For me, a life-long singer, conductor and composer there is one insoluble and maddening mystery, the human mind. Why is it that when the solemn low strings start the big fugue which starts Bach's B Minor Mass you absolutely know that you are in the presence of a great creative spirit, that this idea is FULL of something that is going to take twenty minutes to argue out (and it does!) - you don't have to like it, it may not push your button, but you recognise that a heart is beating. Similarly, when the strings start Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik you know that it's a jolly little thing which is going to entertain for three minutes or so, and that he intended it to be no more than that, "a little night music." The quality of the IDEA is all. The maddening thing for most of us is, how did they do it? Why can't we? It doesn't mean they're necessarliy very nice or good people, in fact history often suggests the opposite, but they seem to have a hot-line to God. It eventually seems to have driven Salieri mad (see Amadeus) and, reading this thread, it sometimes seems that madness lies in wait for us all, for the problem is there for all sorts and conditions of men and music. From Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man to the opening riff of Lennon's Imagine, the same sort of hook is at work - and where would the Beatles have gone without Sir George Martin? In art, Rubens had an army of studio assistants to fill in the yards of lace on his big pictures - Canterbury cathedral was built by William of Sens but he had legions of stonemasons we know nothing about to realise his masterpiece. We still need skilled artisans, but would be still try to build such a building with lumber and hemp intead of steel scaffolding? Of course not, so why criticise modern instruments and a horde of skilled assistants? And there's always serendipity - do you know Arthur Sullivan's old warhorse "The Lost Chord"? Many's the time I've stumbled across something I didn't intend to do while faffing about with my sequencer/samples, then recognised that it was right and that it came from somewhere inside at another level. The difference being, I don't have seventy-five jeering musicians staring at me while I try to make up my mind. Well. that's enough - keep it going. (In passing, this 67 yr-old is having a ball dealing with the new technology and reading your spirited stuff) Much love out there...




wow

thanks for the input

should have been a part of it when it was huge back in may

but cool none the less

never thought a 17 year old me could spark such a heated debate.

[Australian_Composer]

wow

thanks for the input

should have been a part of it when it was huge back in may

but cool none the less

never thought a 17 year old me could spark such a heated debate.

Hi Hornmeister,

How is your Composing going?

Do you use the Choirs program / what else?

Cheers!

[HornMeister]

Hi Hornmeister,

How is your Composing going?

Do you use the Choirs program / what else?

Cheers!


ehhh im getting better

but i still have a hard time with notating melodies

i can sit at a piano and come up with decent stuff but when it comes to actually notating them

its a bit hard (any clues on how to get better? fast?)

but hey for self taught i think im doing ok
(books and dover scores can work miracles)

i start school in about a week and I placed into Theory II and Ear Training II so Im not that far behind:rolleyes:


For programs I currently use Finale 06, the onboard GPO and the full GPO and I use Sibelius Auralia and Compass to teach myself,,,,,,,, and thats about it. 17 doesnt give you much financial stability and trying to convince mom to buy you a $1000 piece of software. :(

But I did receive a scholarship so everything that I make on my part time campus jon will be saved up in hopes of one day buying Gold, Choirs and RA.

and if I can get anything via my trombone and euphonioum/baritone playing then thats an added bonus.


Its still nice to come to the forum and listen to everyone else's work.

One day...in due time. I'll post something up.

[Australian_Composer]

ehhh im getting better

but i still have a hard time with notating melodies

i can sit at a piano and come up with decent stuff but when it comes to actually notating them

its a bit hard (any clues on how to get better? fast?)

but hey for self taught i think im doing ok
(books and dover scores can work miracles)

i start school in about a week and I placed into Theory II and Ear Training II so Im not that far behind:rolleyes:


For programs I currently use Finale 06, the onboard GPO and the full GPO and I use Sibelius Auralia and Compass to teach myself,,,,,,,, and thats about it. 17 doesnt give you much financial stability and trying to convince mom to buy you a $1000 piece of software. :(

But I did receive a scholarship so everything that I make on my part time campus jon will be saved up in hopes of one day buying Gold, Choirs and RA.

and if I can get anything via my trombone and euphonioum/baritone playing then thats an added bonus.


Its still nice to come to the forum and listen to everyone else's work.

One day...in due time. I'll post something up.
Wow mentioning the Euphonium brought back tears of joy to me. I was born in England and represented England in Europe on the Euphonium. I was a member of the Top Brass Band in Manchester when I was your age. North Western Area Youth Band it was called. Players selected from various School Bands around the North of England. Wow that was a long time ago for me (about 40 years) I still have my original Eupho mouthpiece as a 'keep sake'.

I stayed in Brass Bands for a long while but Piano is my main performing instrument now I am too old to huff and puff. (Maybe not just kidding)

I worked hard even as a Newspaper boy to save up for music etc when I was about your age and we used to form a little group and play below the Flats in Manchester and people would throw money down. It was fantastic!

Composing is a gift from God and requires much much hard work but boy what a thrill when you get out of your head onto paper and into sound!

Work as hard as you can but it will probably be tough and arduous going!

A Tip you might find useful - Listen to whatever you can and try to tap it out and break it into Time signatures approximately and write it in notation and if you can't play it perfectly ask a teacher or someone who can and see how close you get each time?

Bach used to Copy Music to earn money when he started and that way he got extremely familiar with many aspects of notation and how sounds and time are expressed!

Best regards

[HornMeister]

Wow mentioning the Euphonium brought back tears of joy to me. I was born in England and represented England in Europe on the Euphonium. I was a member of the Top Brass Band in Manchester when I was your age. North Western Area Youth Band it was called. Players selected from various School Bands around the North of England. Wow that was a long time ago for me (about 40 years) I still have my original Eupho mouthpiece as a 'keep sake'.

I stayed in Brass Bands for a long while but Piano is my main performing instrument now I am too old to huff and puff. (Maybe not just kidding)

I worked hard even as a Newspaper boy to save up for music etc when I was about your age and we used to form a little group and play below the Flats in Manchester and people would throw money down. It was fantastic!

Composing is a gift from God and requires much much hard work but boy what a thrill when you get out of your head onto paper and into sound!

Work as hard as you can but it will probably be tough and arduous going!

A Tip you might find useful - Listen to whatever you can and try to tap it out and break it into Time signatures approximately and write it in notation and if you can't play it perfectly ask a teacher or someone who can and see how close you get each time?

Bach used to Copy Music to earn money when he started and that way he got extremely familiar with many aspects of notation and how sounds and time are expressed!

Best regards




yea the trombone is my main instrument but they have me playinh euphonium in the brass band in college.

I also want to learn piano just for the sake of knowing.

And composition is something that I really want to pursue and I will go through all the hard work that I have to endure. It will all pay off in the long run.

Starbucks is going to pay for all my musical endeavors for a while. Good thing they start you at 2 dollars above minimum wage:D


Im hoping to buy a DAW and at least Gold by the summer of 07.

[Australian_Composer]

Best regards

[PaulR]

Also, I GLADLY fulfill the role of an orchestrator. One has to make a living, you know. Orchestrating is probably the best springboard into steady work as a film composer, right? Don't knock those guys

AFAIC - orchestrators are worth their weight in gold - or platinum. They are another tool just like the writer, the orchestra, the recordists, the editors etc - in getting the best possible mood setting for the film.

Trevor Rabin just occurs to me. Wrote Owner of a Lonely Heart I believe when he was playing guitar for Yes. A rocker who transferred quite well to filmscoring.

[HornMeister]

Best regards

Thanks a lot for the tips.

[SOJO7]

Can YOU compose when the power goes out?
I'm afraid I do not know sheet music. I'm a self-taught musician.:) But I have been around a lot of musical people...

[nickysnd]

Can YOU compose when the power goes out?

Do you mean the electrical power?:D

Ja, mein Herr, Ich kan kontinue till morning by using the gutt ol' Johann Sebastian way - a bunch of kandles and a lot of imaginazion und bhrrrains... :p

Seriously now, when the focus goes on "how", the "what" gets lower in both quantity and quality. In my case, anyways...

[Ongaku]

Since there are people who bash ZImmer for using electronics on his work. Let me ask you all a question. Can YOU compose when the power goes out? Honestly can you sit down and orchestrate a piece on paper and then wait to have a real orchestra play it?.....didnt think so.

Zimmer can use electronics if he wants. Who cares? Your computer is a tool, an assistance.
Composer back then (not so long ago) didn't have computers, CD players, etc… You wanted to listen to music? Either you played it, or you read it from a score. Composing/orchestrating on paper takes time and practice to master. Some people are just very gifted and can read Stravinsky scores and hear everything once they learned notes and the rest… well… they PRACTICE! I've been studying for years my "internal" hearing and its starting to come along very well. I force myself to work as much as possible on paper without piano or computer. This is how it has been done for centuries! Why can't we do it now? Because we are assisted… everything is placed on a golden plate. I am lucky my harmony and counterpoint lessons are taught the traditional way; NO piano. Just paper and pencil. Force yourself and its the only way you'll get there. But it takes time… Most of my friends in class compose without any instrument help and absolutely not with computer help.

Can YOU make the effort?