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View Full Version : Is there "lookback" keyswitching?


Steve Millikan
05-19-2005, 11:20 AM
I'm running Pro Tools on a Dual 1.8 mac, and composing/overdubbing delightedly with Platinum. Does anyone know if there is a way to cause Pro Tools to see/trigger the most recent keyswitch articulation that occurred? E.G., if the current passage should be tremolo, it won't be if the last place I stopped working before repositioning the cursor was not tremolo.

I can see a couple workarounds - writing the keyswitch 'notes' more often than necessary, or lengthening the keywsitch notes so they extend nearly to the next keyswitch. It would be nice, though, if there were another way...or at least a more elegant workaround.

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 11:42 AM
Extending the duration of the note wouldn't help because its only triggered on a note on event correct?

I'm assuming you encounter this problem when stopping playback at this articulation and starting playback where another articulation should be playing, but there's no keyswitch note to change it at that marker?

The only thing I could tell you is to place lots of little keyswitch notes. Either that or start playback before the keyswitch.

Steve Millikan
05-19-2005, 11:57 AM
Extending the duration of the notes DOES work - if the playback starts on any portion of the keyswitch 'note' it takes effect.

MacQ
05-19-2005, 03:02 PM
Most sequencers cen be set up to chase MIDI events (including MIDI note on). I think you hit the nail on the head ... setting the keyswitch note to be the length of the passage. That's probably the best method.

~MacQ

Joseph Burrell
05-19-2005, 04:41 PM
Wow, that will come in handy then thanks. I would have thought it wouldn't work.

ToddK
05-19-2005, 05:09 PM
Extending the duration of the notes DOES work - if the playback starts on any portion of the keyswitch 'note' it takes effect.


The sequencer has to start before
the note.
Its the same with any midi note. If you start the sequencer in the middle
of a string note or piano note, you will not hear anything.

Keyswitch is just On OFF, its not continuous controller.

You sounded so sure, i tried it in Nuendo with Gold.
It did not work.

Though this could be a limitation of Nuendo, but i doubt it.
Or maybe im just an idiot. :o

Steve Millikan
05-19-2005, 07:20 PM
The sequencer has to start before
the note.
Its the same with any midi note. If you start the sequencer in the middle
of a string note or piano note, you will not hear anything.

Keyswitch is just On OFF, its not continuous controller.

You sounded so sure, i tried it in Nuendo with Gold.
It did not work.

Though this could be a limitation of Nuendo, but i doubt it.
Or maybe im just an idiot. :o

Okay, no need for self-deprecation, BUT... in Pro Tools 6.9, if you catch any part of the keyswitch articulation note, it definitely takes effect, and lengthening those 'notes' solves the problem, as long as you're willing to take the time to do it. Sorry Nuendo doesn't do that for whatever reason....

KevinKauai
05-21-2005, 01:51 AM
I wouldn't mind dropping in additional "KeySwitch triggers" here and there if I could also find a way of filtering them out of the SCORE. It's a bit of a mess to have (for example) a KeySwitch solo flute merrrily working along in the treble clef and to have to use a split/grand staff because the KS notes are down in the C-1 to G-1 area. Conversely, with a KS Double Bass (which is controlled by keys up in the C-4 area) it would be desirable to filter out those for scoring purposes as well. (I'm using Cubase SX so if any other Cubase SX users have solved this dilemma in a relatively painless way, I'd love to hear about it!)

;) KevinKauai

DPK
05-21-2005, 06:51 AM
The sequencer has to start before
the note.
Its the same with any midi note. If you start the sequencer in the middle
of a string note or piano note, you will not hear anything.

Keyswitch is just On OFF, its not continuous controller.

You sounded so sure, i tried it in Nuendo with Gold.
It did not work.

Though this could be a limitation of Nuendo, but i doubt it.
Or maybe im just an idiot. :o

Try seeing if there is a note chase preference in Nuendo. Yours might be set to off.

Dan-

Scott Cairns
05-21-2005, 07:16 AM
I wouldn't mind dropping in additional "KeySwitch triggers" here and there if I could also find a way of filtering them out of the SCORE. It's a bit of a mess to have (for example) a KeySwitch solo flute merrrily working along in the treble clef and to have to use a split/grand staff because the KS notes are down in the C-1 to G-1 area. Conversely, with a KS Double Bass (which is controlled by keys up in the C-4 area) it would be desirable to filter out those for scoring purposes as well. (I'm using Cubase SX so if any other Cubase SX users have solved this dilemma in a relatively painless way, I'd love to hear about it!)

;) KevinKauai

Hi, you could have your instrument on one track, and then a duplicate track that contains only the ks notes.

So; Track1 - flute midi channel 1
Track2 - flute ks notes midi channel 1

Track2 would change the articulation. Before you go to print your score, delete the ks tracks. I havent tried it, its just a thought.

RickD
05-21-2005, 07:49 AM
I wouldn't mind dropping in additional "KeySwitch triggers" here and there if I could also find a way of filtering them out of the SCORE. It's a bit of a mess to have (for example) a KeySwitch solo flute merrrily working along in the treble clef and to have to use a split/grand staff because the KS notes are down in the C-1 to G-1 area. Conversely, with a KS Double Bass (which is controlled by keys up in the C-4 area) it would be desirable to filter out those for scoring purposes as well. (I'm using Cubase SX so if any other Cubase SX users have solved this dilemma in a relatively painless way, I'd love to hear about it!)

;) KevinKauai

Kevin,
I think you could make seperate tracks for the keyswitchs, just assign them to the appropriate channels. Then do a save_as, and you'll be able to delete the extra keyswitch tracks for a printable score.

Sound good? :)

Rick

Daryl
05-21-2005, 08:51 AM
Kevin,
I think you could make seperate tracks for the keyswitchs, just assign them to the appropriate channels. Then do a save_as, and you'll be able to delete the extra keyswitch tracks for a printable score.

Sound good? :)

Rick

By far the easiest way to do it unless you like to hit the keyswitches "live".

Daryl

MacQ
05-21-2005, 07:04 PM
Or maybe im just an idiot. :o

Clearly you're just an idiot. ;) Just kidding! You can actually change it to chase MIDI note events (it defaults to "Off") in the following menu:

File | Preferences | MIDI | Chase Events | Note

I'm on SX3, but I'm certain it's the same thing with Nuendo.

Have fun!

~MacQ

dubaifox
05-22-2005, 01:25 AM
I'm running Pro Tools on a Dual 1.8 mac, and composing/overdubbing delightedly with Platinum.
Hey Steve, I was very encouraged to read this!
Are you using Pro Tools LE or TDM?
Are you using Platinum as an RTAS plug or standalone on a different machine?
How many voices can you run?
Any performance issues?

I just got Platinum and will be getting another Mac to go with my Dual 1.25 G4.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

Paul

Steve Millikan
05-22-2005, 12:23 PM
Hey Steve, I was very encouraged to read this!
Are you using Pro Tools LE or TDM?
Are you using Platinum as an RTAS plug or standalone on a different machine?
How many voices can you run?
Any performance issues?

I just got Platinum and will be getting another Mac to go with my Dual 1.25 G4.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

Paul

I'm using TDM. As a non-tech guy, I'm not sure about the advantages of the RTAS plug approach that everyone talks about...I've been using it native, although RTAS is available... a friend who knows more than I said to run it native.

I do have performance issues. However, I have had some recurring issues for the last few months, and I don't know if they are related to Platinum on Pro Tools or not. The primary issue for me is beachballs - I get them early and often; they usually take away about 7-10 seconds. I haven't done enough experimenting to know if the time per beachball would be signicantly less with less voices. I've been running about 8-10 voices, with perhaps 2 or 3 of the voices being pretty large - Keyswitch versions of celli and vln are almost always a part of my sessions. I'm also running Ivory on occasion, and that slows things down a little more, I think. However, I am so thrilled with the sounds that I'm willing to put up with the beachballs. On the plus side, a few months ago I was having regular crashes/kernel panics (maybe one every 10 hours) but I haven't crashed in the last 100+ hours of use.

One additional unknown quantity is my RAM - 2 of my 3 gigs is brand X (Approved Memory brand), and i don't know if this might be a part of my problem. I think soon I'll take that RAM out and run a session with say one instrument on Platinum and see if it works ok.

Hope this helps.

dubaifox
05-22-2005, 09:02 PM
I'm using TDM....I've been using it native,

Thanks Steve:

I am a little unclear how to run it Native AND be using it with Pro Tools? Don't you HAVE to use it as an RTAS plug unless you have it on a seperate machine as a standalone sampler, which it does not sound like you are doing.

Thanks again.

Paul

Steve Millikan
05-23-2005, 10:40 AM
Paul, not sure what I was smoking when I replied. Sorry for the confusion. I'm running Platinum on TDM, not RTAS/Native.

I did a little testing today. I can run Ivory (softsynth pno) and 3 instruments in Platinum that total about 250 Megs without getting beachballs. I didn't take it any further than that, but I may get back to it later to see how far I have to go before I they show up. Another thing I forgot to mention is that stuck notes are very common, so shift/splat/period is employed early and often. Let me know if this clears things up.

Steve

dubaifox
05-24-2005, 01:22 AM
[QUOTE=Steve Millikan]Sorry for the confusion. I'm running Platinum on TDM, not RTAS/Native. /QUOTE]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but if you are using Platinum from within Pro Tools, wether you have LE or TDM, it still is used as an RTAS plug-in.

Unlike some plugs (Waves for instance) there is only one way to instantiate Kontakt or Kompakt from within Pro Tools, which is RTAS.

Alternately, you COULD be running it by itself on a another dedicated machine and then lightpiping the sounds into your Pro Tools session, a bit like a Giga set-up.

Can anybody clarify?

Paul

Steve Millikan
05-24-2005, 01:31 PM
When you create the aux track where one of the EWQLSO Platinum modules will be, the insert gives you the option of either Multi-Channel TDM plug-in or Multi-Channel RTAS plug-in.

Syncopator
05-25-2005, 02:11 AM
I wouldn't mind dropping in additional "KeySwitch triggers" here and there if I could also find a way of filtering them out of the SCORE. It's a bit of a mess to have (for example) a KeySwitch solo flute merrrily working along in the treble clef and to have to use a split/grand staff because the KS notes are down in the C-1 to G-1 area. Conversely, with a KS Double Bass (which is controlled by keys up in the C-4 area) it would be desirable to filter out those for scoring purposes as well. (I'm using Cubase SX so if any other Cubase SX users have solved this dilemma in a relatively painless way, I'd love to hear about it!)

;) KevinKauai
Put your keyswitch triggers on a separate track (set to the same MIDI channel, of course). I put mine directly beneath the track to which they correspond:

"Solo flute"
"- Solo flute keysw"

Bada bing.

KevinKauai
05-25-2005, 05:04 AM
RickD – you’re blooming BRILLIANT!!

I cannot believe that the notion of putting the “keyswitch triggers” on a ‘parallel’ track set to the same MIDI channel never occurred to me! I just tried a simple test of playing a KS instrument and then simply duplicating the track and [1] deleting the “notes” from the keyswitch track and then [2] deleting the keyswitch notes from the real notes track. PRESTO! Mission accomplished! Of course, as Daryl points out that doesn’t quite work if you are playing “live” but then, again, you’re usually not concerned with the Score when you’re playing live, are you?

I’m not sure what you meant about doing a “save_as” and deleting the track[s], though. All that would seem to matter is that when you are choosing the tracks to be in the Score that you just skip over those which have only keyswitch info. (Now, wouldn’t it be something SENSATIONAL if there was a way of translating the keyswitch triggers into common score nomenclature such as “arco”, “pizz.”, etc.!? I can dream!)

I’m curious as to how many others use (or have used) this approach for keyswitched instruments and score (not to mention why it has taken me 8 months to find this solution). Clearly, like ToddK, I need to go queue up in the “idiots” line!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You’re a HERO, RickD!

KevinKauai :D

P.S. Thanks to Syncopator, too. I think you were also stating the same solution as RickD (and for some reason, my "instant email notification" wasn't set for this thread).

janila
05-25-2005, 05:43 AM
Interesting read this thread. It shows clearly that people don't really focus on what they read on the Internet. Scott Cairns suggested the separate track for key switches on the first page of this thread. RickD chimes in and says exactly the same thing right in the next reply after Scott. Then slightly after RickD Syncopator says the same thing for the third time. Then KevinKauai comes and notices the RickD's version of the issue. I bet I could call you total morons as you wouldn't notice that either. :D Sorry, I'm just pulling your leg. What ever that actually means.

RokGeetar
05-25-2005, 06:19 AM
Yep I use two tracks also, but in a slightly different way. I find that I am shifting notes left and right to get the attack of the note in the right place and the sustain release sounding ok. This can mean the notes are 'out' on the score.

So what I do is create a 'quantized' midi track to start with which appears nicely in the score, and then duplicate and mute that track so that I can tweak and KS the heck out of the midi track playing the music.

Works for me, but (thank goodness) "we are all individuals"!