Similarities with composers...

[Phantom]

Hi everyone

I know I have made a smiliar discussion in the past

This topic is not to beef about anything and I know it sounds picky to judge music this way, but I am sure most of you here would like to discuss this so here is something I have always noticed and wanted to share with you all.

Nothing special of me knowing this. I am sure most of you know this as well, but it's something I always notice in soundtracks...

Gladiator score - "Opening/Begining The Battle" theme:
Listen from 9:02 - 9:30

Again... not complaining about anything. I am actually happy to note that this part is very similar to Klaus Badelt's score for Pirates Of The Carribean.

I mean, you hear this part and you stragiht away picture Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom boarding the ship :D

Anyway, I like the way both my favourite composers, Zimmer and Badelt work amongst each other on film scores.

I know for a fact that they do work together so it is no surprise to me that they have similar music between them. But the similarities are to a 'T'. - No surprise that Zimmer is composing the score for 'Pirates Of The Carribean: Dead Man's Chest' - that's great!

Anyway, I am happy that they work the same way :cool:

Another soundtrack of Badelt's resembled a lot of Zimmer's score for 'Days Of Thunder'.
Put them side by side and you will notice it.

Do you remember the 'Victory' theme Zimmer did for that movie?
Now listen to Badelt's "Godspeed" theme for 'The Time Machine'.

The theme he did for the native choir to sing to was almost identical to the first half of Zimmer's 'Victory' theme and the end of Zimmer's "King Of Pride Rock" theme from 'The Lion King.

All these themes are in my top list :D

Again, I am not complaining about this

I just think it's great how they work the same way :cool:

[fongi]

Your points about repetition are valid but the fact is, there´s nothing new in music old buddy! all goes in the ears gets mixed with other stuff and comes out again reformed, not forgetting we´re only working with 12 notes right? When you write you write with ideas that have heard, you are influenced by other composers and that will in turn surely show in your composition. There is very little that is original or new but we still love what we do don´t we? :D

[Phantom]

i was thinking the same thing

like when you mentioned the amount of notes to work with

its obvious then why some themes may sound the same

:)

[chocothrax]

In related news-

According to the Mail on Sunday, Hans
Zimmer is being sued for infringement of copyright over resemblences between
his Gladiator music and Mars from 'The Planets'. 'The Planets' was in
copyright until January of last year. The action is being taken by the
Holst Foundation and publishers J Curwen & Sons.

According to the report:

"A Curwen spokesman said, 'After a considerable period of discussion between
the two parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the
courts.' It is understood that a writ has been issued.

"Mr Zimmer admits in the CD sleeve notes that people find the pieces
similar, but says he used 'the same language, the same vocabulary, if not
the same syntax'. But he will resist the legal claim. His lawyer said, 'Mr
Zimmer's work on Gladiator is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy
of Mars. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener the
claim has no merit.'"

[Phantom]

I think the reason is quite obvious why Hans Zimmer does work that is quickly renowned all over the world...

He is one of Hollywood's most greatest and famous composers.

Take one of us for example - me in this case...

If I were to copy a tune and start making a movie with it, then I would have a greater law suit on my hands because I am a nobody taking sombody elses work.

In Zimmer's case I think IMO it is because he is so famous and known all over, that he is able to squeeze a few things in here and there

But at least Zimmer admits it :D

[james hansson]

In related news-

According to the Mail on Sunday, Hans
Zimmer is being sued for infringement of copyright over resemblences between
his Gladiator music and Mars from 'The Planets'. 'The Planets' was in
copyright until January of last year. The action is being taken by the
Holst Foundation and publishers J Curwen & Sons.

According to the report:

"A Curwen spokesman said, 'After a considerable period of discussion between
the two parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the
courts.' It is understood that a writ has been issued.

"Mr Zimmer admits in the CD sleeve notes that people find the pieces
similar, but says he used 'the same language, the same vocabulary, if not
the same syntax'. But he will resist the legal claim. His lawyer said, 'Mr
Zimmer's work on Gladiator is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy
of Mars. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener the
claim has no merit.'"


verry funny , and in same time it is very daily in the United States this type of lawsuit :rolleyes:

[chocothrax]

I think the reason is quite obvious why Hans Zimmer does work that is quickly renowned all over the world...

He is one of Hollywood's most greatest and famous composers.

Take one of us for example - me in this case...

If I were to copy a tune and start making a movie with it, then I would have a greater law suit on my hands because I am a nobody taking sombody elses work.

In Zimmer's case I think IMO it is because he is so famous and known all over, that he is able to squeeze a few things in here and there

But at least Zimmer admits it :D


So famous people are allowed to steal I guess?

[fongi]

I guess they do don´t they chocothrax ? P.S. I see you´ll soon be going Gold? 287 posts :D

[Phantom]

When I said "But at least Zimmer admits it"...

I did not mean it in a harsh way or in a way that he is allowed to steal, borrow, use, or however you want to put it.

Read my message that opened this topic

I clearly stated I am not here to complain or discuss this in the wrong manner

I am just trying to make a nice discussion that between us members can relate to the similarities between these great composers

Plese do not turn this into a competition

Thanks :)

[chocothrax]

Of course Zimmer has to admit it, it's very obvious. Don't worry I won't turn this into a "competition"..whatever that means... here you go lots of smileys :) :) :) :) :) :) :D :) :D :D :) :D :p :D :) :D :) :D :p :p :D :) :D :) :D :)

[shnurgle]

I forgot the Planets was still under copyright until last year. Man, I can't believe they never busted Williams or Horner or Elfman for that stuff. Planets is like the film composers' bible for the last few decades. I guess you can't sue for "texture and chord progression infirngement" though. If you could, old Danny Boy would be in deep, seeing how he based his carreer on the two monor chords from "Neptune." But then, that's probably the most ripped-off harmonic scheme in film music history, so I can't single him out.

[Phantom]

Of course Zimmer has to admit it, it's very obvious. Don't worry I won't turn this into a "competition"..whatever that means... here you go lots of smileys :) :) :) :) :) :) :D :) :D :D :) :D :p :D :) :D :) :D :p :p :D :) :D :) :D :)

:p ;) :D :) :p ;) :D :) :p ;) :D
:cool:

Thanks! ;)

[Josta]

...we´re only working with 12 notes right?

Well, yes, but we "only" have 26 letters in the Latin alphabet and we still manage to come up with new sentences! :D (well, usually...Harvard undergrad author Kaavya Viswanathan apparently recently ran out of new sentences in her recently published novel...)

It's really pretty amazing how vast a range those "12 notes" provide...

Here's a little gedankenexperiment: how many unique 8-note melodies can be composed using only an octave range?

Even if we limit ourselves to 4/4 and assume, say, 16 possible note durations (16th through whole in increments of a 16th) we get a really, really, really big number of melodies.

I think it works out to something like:

(12 x 16) to the 8th power = 1.85 x 10 to the 18th

That is, about 2 followed by 18 zeros.

There are what, something like 6 an' a half billion people alive on the Earth? That works out to about 300 million 8-note simple metre melodies each for every man, woman and child on the planet. And we haven't even started on triple time or 32nd notes!

OK, I know, yes, of course a lot of the "melodies" will be very similar or atonal or just plain unappealing.

But, still...c'mon...I think Hans can sort through a few of those 300 million+ he's been allocated and come up with a new one! (or, if he's really stuck, get totally out of the box and try a 7 or 9 note theme...)

:rolleyes:

Joe

P.S. Woah...all those psychedelic smiley's are making me dizzy!

[Ecliptic]

:p ;) :D :) :p ;) :D :) :p ;) :D :p
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

:eek: :eek: :eek: Cheers :eek: :eek: :eek:

The Fiddler on the roof....looks down at the smiling faces... he was "the minstrel in the gallery", but it's the same!.... or not? :eek: :eek: :eek:
.
.
.
:eek:

[shnurgle]

Salaried and collar-scrubbing, no less.

[chocothrax]

I forgot the Planets was still under copyright until last year. Man, I can't believe they never busted Williams or Horner or Elfman for that stuff. Planets is like the film composers' bible for the last few decades. I guess you can't sue for "texture and chord progression infirngement" though. If you could, old Danny Boy would be in deep, seeing how he based his carreer on the two monor chords from "Neptune." But then, that's probably the most ripped-off harmonic scheme in film music history, so I can't single him out.

The first time I heard the planets, Neptune stuck out as by far my favourite one. Could be because of Elfman. :)

[dcoscina]

Williams employed stylistic similarities in Star Wars but Zimmer actually quoted parts of MArs directly including the melody, harmony and rhythm. Was he really surprised that some people could listen past the awful synthesizers and hear Holst directly? :p

[Counterpoint]

Yeh, these lawsuits kind of freak me out sometimes and make me wonder if I really want to walk the path of a composer. Why is it that a copyright would exist for 70 years after the death of the composer? Seriously, I'd like to know exactly what harm was being done to Holst when "Gladiator" was released?

If Zimmer even acknowledged the similarties on the soundtrack CD notes, then it's quite probable that he even boosted the interest in Holst's music. Seriously though... I doubt that Holst really cares one way or another at the moment.

I don't know... saying that the music from Star Wars "employed stylistic similarities" is maybe a bit of an understatement. There are some spots in that score that sound like they were pretty much lifted right out of "The Planets" too. So why was there no lawsuit for that? (and don't get me wrong here... SW is one of my absolute favourite movie scores).

Seriously... 70 years of 'hands off' after the composer is dead? The only reason this number exists (and watch, it will go up to 90 years within the next decade or so...) is to benefit several record labels who are still profiting from that music. In the case of Holst, I'm glad that it's at least controlled by his official foundation... but most composers don't have such a thing. I'd be willing to bet that most of the rights are owned by companies like Sony, BMG, Disney...

- Matt


PS - Ok, I just can't stop myself...

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[nikolas]

Well, at least in my heqad, when I'm gone, I'm leaving all rights to my children and my childrens' children.

That will teach those bastard companies!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Jacknan]

hmmmm......

Come on, guys. You can say that Gladiator sounds SIMILAR to Holst´s Mars, but that´s it. ONLY similar.
Since when has outlining a symmetrical diminished scale, harmonized by simple major triads become "patented"??????? :eek:
It´s just that "space" sound that you get by doing that, but it´s no big deal, really. Then stop using common progressions. Even I-V-I. It´s been used before!!!
I agree there are and have been copyright infringements, but this would HARDLY qualify as one. Just as Zimmer said, it sounds similar, but if we all get sued by sounding similar, then there would not be a music composition business anymore.

Besides, these poor guys are often given a temp track. They are supposed to make it sound similar, yet different and original, but always that DAMN TEMP TRACK ! :rolleyes:
This can be as challenging as frustrating for the composer. It´s their "guide", but sometimes directors become so used to it that if they get something slightly different by the composer they complain.

Let us cut these GREAT composers some slack!

Peace,

Fernando

[PaulR]

Let us cut these GREAT composers some slack!
Fernando

Absolutely agree. Holst is definitely a great composer and I for one would cut him some slack anytime.

[WoodIsGood]

If they win this lawsuit then where does it end? I hear musical quotations all over the place in pop music, film music, etc. I will admit that I was initially bothered by the "Gladiator"/"Mars" similarities but have since realized that it's hard to create music without being influenced by all you have heard with your ears throughout your life. I suspect they are going after Zimmer due to his enormous success both artistically and financially in hopes that he will just settle and be done with it. Who knows. Just my 2 1/2 cents. :confused:

[Jeff Hayat]

.....we get a really, really, really big number of melodies.

I think it works out to something like:

(12 x 16) to the 8th power = 1.85 x 10 to the 18th

That is, about 2 followed by 18 zeros.

There are what, something like 6 an' a half billion people alive on the Earth? That works out to about 300 million 8-note simple metre melodies each for every man, woman and child on the planet. And we haven't even started on triple time or 32nd notes!


Ok, someone has a bit too much time on their hands! :p :D

[Josta]

Ok, someone has a bit too much time on their hands! :p :D

Hey Riff, that was just back-of-the-envelope, my brother!

Don't make me break out my slide rule...

:rolleyes:

Joe

P.S. Didn't John Cage write a fantasia for slide rule and adding machine?

[sinkd]

I guess they do don´t they chocothrax ? P.S. I see you´ll soon be going Gold? 287 posts :D

Is Gold at 300? Woo-hoo!

(I think I can, I think I can...)

ds

[sinkd]

I thought Gold was at 500?

ds

hmmmmmm.....

(Yup. dammit. 200 more to go.) :(

[Ecliptic]

I thought Gold was at 500?

ds

hmmmmmm.....

(Yup. dammit. 200 more to go.) :(
You could try with this:

:D :D :D

[Ecliptic]

this

:D :D :D

[Ecliptic]

this

:D :D :D

and get on 200 times....

if Doug will not ban you... you'll be Gold in a flash!

[Ecliptic]

Clarification:

However I've not been Platinum this way, being that if you look backwards in the music section you'll notice that I've replyed everyone of the demos posted there since five months (I miss only someone of the last posted, but I'll reply them soon).

Cheers,
The Fiddler on the roof

[doug hazelrigg]

Just recently I watched Gladiator... the score is okay... the parts which feature the female singer, who I read improvised many of her cues over beds Zimmer had scored, are beautiful. But all in all, I don't hear anything all THAT exceptional. In fact, I found some of it to be cliched (except for those beautiful exotic cues that featured that female singer

[Phantom]

Female singer is Lisa Gerrard
She has worked on quite a few good movies

Hans Zimmer said, "When you work with Lisa Gerrard, you better make sure you have that 'record' button on, coz you don't know what to expect

That's how god she is

I think they both worked amazing on Gladiator and Zimmer couldn't find a better vocalist

[Josta]

Hans Zimmer said, "When you work with Lisa Gerrard, you better make sure you have that 'record' button on, coz you don't know what to expect

That's how god she is



I agree that Lisa is "god"-like!

Seriously, what an amazing, haunting, spine-shivering voice. I heard Lisa perform in Boston at Berklee when she and Brendan Perry headed up Dead Can Dance. Talk about bringing down the house! (And that house was filled with musicians.) It still ranks among the most intense musical moments I've ever been privileged to experience.

Her music and voice dig deep into me in almost any context, but strike me as extraordinarily powerful accompanying film.

Do you remember the episode of The West Wing in which her song Sanvean accompanied images of a church and a candelight vigil for President Bartlet's kidnapped daughter Zoey?

It brought me to my knees emotionally...just crushed me into pulp.

Joe

[Crossingsound]

I just love Dead can dance, and lisa's solo albums are so amazing. If you have not heard them, I think its a great cd to get.

[White Noise]

Actually, even when Lisa isn't singing she's a very talented film composer in her own right - check out the score for Whale Rider. I'm really looking forward to the new stuff that she's writing with Patrick Cassidy (the beautiful aria from Hannibal). And the stuff that she did with Jeff Rona for the Smithsonian thing is also very good.