Which comes first - The Music or the editing?

[dubaifox]

We work with a producer/editor that insists he has music before he starts editing. He finds that it enables him to have direction and focus when he edits.

We find this extremely frustrating. He is only able to give a few guidelines about style and timings of the movie, yet he wants us to compose music for this "unseen" film. It is not the case (as with other clients) where it is a time issue and they just simply need music NOW!! He wants the music to dictate how he edits.

The end result of giving the music first is basically a music montage where the film and music sometimes seem to work together but most often not. It seems like our musical decissions are guiding the entire flow of the film. We feel careful planning and consideration should be spent in developing a story with the film, and then have the music added last, so that it can seemlessly support the visuals.

We tried to explain this to him in a meeting today, but we think we way have put him off a bit.

Are we way off base? Have other people experienced working with producers/editors who want to edit to music?

[Jeff Hayat]

What came first - the camera or the film? :rolleyes:

Are we way off base?

Not at all. As far as I am aware, the only commercially released movie to ever be cut around the music was Amadeus - and one can imagine why. Never say never, but films are never cut to the music - it is always the music that is written to the picture. Sure there are picture changes, and music cues need to be trimmed/re-timed/etc., but there is always at least a first cut (first assembly) that is done before the music editor gets the film - and that is before the composer gets the film.

Is this some artsy-fartsy thing that is visually very different than the norm? Maybe some avant-garde-experementalnoir-whatever "film" with no dialogue? I mean, if there is dialogue, how the hell are you supposed to fit the music around the dialogue if you don't know where it is? I can see someone trying something different, by specifically cutting images to the rhythm and melody of music - maybe like a naquoi-qatsi (sp?) thing, but to have an actual film with actors and dialogue, that makes no sense.

Cheers.

[WoodIsGood]

I guess it depends on what type of project this is. If it's a dramatic film than I would say the editor is out of his mind. Music should support the images and storyline, not drive it.

[nikolas]

I think that Cubrics (sp?) 'Spartacus', in the fighting scene at the begining, had first the music composed and recorded, and chorographed the scene (not edited though...)...

anyway...

Back to the topic, I find that I personally work better when writting music for the film, and not before the film (animation, short, whatever...). Unless you have a director talented and open minded who would like to work with you hand in hand, which is a great case (it's happened to me once with a theater play and I would love for it to happen again...) but extremly time consuming... ;)

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Usually a rough edit is given for scoring, then later more edits. In this case, the music might be snipped here and there since some small changes in the final edit might have been made.

However, asking to compose music with no real basis or cut to sync to is retarded.

[shnurgle]

LOL. Damn right.

[fongi]

.

However, asking to compose music with no real basis or cut to sync to is retarded.
Your right there old buddy ! :D

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Now actually, I've done something similar. Plays.

I would ask for emotions to convey in timed intervals, and maybe even a small summary of what's happening. Then I would be part of the directing of the play, and tell actors the musical cues to go buy, therefore making the score fit perfectly with the scene.

Also, for "Chanson De L'ange" I simply asked for a paragraph of a summary.

I suppose you COULD do this with movies, but only after figuring out what kind of spotting is going to happen. And to sit down and spot with a director, YOU STILL NEED A ROUGH EDIT.

The only other thing is to simply ask the composer to compose the score in pieces, each with a rough idea of what type of sound needs to happen. Something that is written and not built to really synch with specific events in the film, that can be cut and paste later.

But in doing this, you are forced to write rather linear which could make the score repetative and boring.

I have to say, you've given me a taste of what to expect. I may very well put into my resume "Will only work post-edit"

[SOJO7]

Sound is the last thing added to a production... It sounds like he doesn't have a clear vision regarding the arrangement of the shots he has to put together and wants a little help... aka timing what he's got to music instead of making it up all by himself.

[Warren Peterson]

I thought I read or heard somewhere that Once Upon a Time in the West was scored in advance.

If so, certainly the exception, not the rule.

[White Noise]

Most editors that I've worked with cut around temp tracks that are from other movies. This can be useful for them since it give them a rhythm to work to and, as a composer, one then gets a very clear idea about what hitpoints are really important to hit. However, on the down side, one can sometimes find oneself having to wrestle to get the editor/director to let go of the temp. Personally, I like working to temp tracks since one then doesn't have to try so hard to interpret the sort of thing they're after. The temp is a good guide.

[Edx]

Now you know what I heard that Harry Gregson Williams wrote the music to the Metal Gear Solid 2 cut scenes before they had made them, I remember because I can remember him saying how it was a challenge :D

But most films wont do it like that.

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Well, games are a bit different. He might have written the scene music to edits for the cut scenes, but wrote all the music for the actual gaming parts first.

[Edx]

Well, games are a bit different. He might have written the scene music to edits for the cut scenes, but wrote all the music for the actual gaming parts first.

Im talking about the cutscenes, which are basically like mini movies. He had points he needed to hit and convey if I understood correctly and they made the thing around his music.

[chocothrax]

Harry only did the cutscenes right?

[Edx]

Harry only did the cutscenes right?

Dont know for sure.

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Probably. And they probably designed the coding around his music since him doing the music was so new and exciting, they probably wanted to make it more effective.

I can see how that might work.

[mattmann13]

Apparently for 'Gladiator' Zimmer was in a room next to the editor so they did collaborate quite a bit

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

There was a temp track of the battle music just as it was written that Hans did with all his samples to use as a demo and temp track for editing. Then later real instruments were added.

I know this because on the More from Gladiator CD it contains the all sample version.

[josejherring]

It's not a bad way to work. Be smart about it though. Best to use temp tracks for most of it then score once the picture is locked.




Jose

[dinosound]

If I'm not mistaken Australian film maker Paul Cox works this way often. In fact he has his composer write the music in advance of shooting and then has his actors do their scenes with the music playing back for inspiration/interaction.

D.


What came first - the camera or the film? :rolleyes:



Not at all. As far as I am aware, the only commercially released movie to ever be cut around the music was Amadeus - and one can imagine why. Never say never, but films are never cut to the music - it is always the music that is written to the picture. Sure there are picture changes, and music cues need to be trimmed/re-timed/etc., but there is always at least a first cut (first assembly) that is done before the music editor gets the film - and that is before the composer gets the film.

Is this some artsy-fartsy thing that is visually very different than the norm? Maybe some avant-garde-experementalnoir-whatever "film" with no dialogue? I mean, if there is dialogue, how the hell are you supposed to fit the music around the dialogue if you don't know where it is? I can see someone trying something different, by specifically cutting images to the rhythm and melody of music - maybe like a naquoi-qatsi (sp?) thing, but to have an actual film with actors and dialogue, that makes no sense.

Cheers.

[Crossingsound]

As mentioned above and pretty well covered, it has been done before but not the norm, and I think certainly not benificial to the composer when trying to tell the story with music and images for a long format. Maybe for a commercial or fast edits, and yes, temp tracks usually are used. Which is good and bad, because often the editors and producers get "demo love", and anything that sounds different then the temp tracks just doesn't work as well. but good because the edits now have a pulse or rythm that is more easily followable.

So, certainly when writing for a long format such as a film, being able to watch the on screen motion makes writing to cue much much better. Maybe they are not good editors, and can't feel out a scene, and a music track helps them, as a crutch, who knows.....

So, maybe if they insist on doing it this way, try to get as much info about where they want the music to go, so in the end, they won't have you keep re-writing it to match their pictures, and I would also make them understand that as well, and put in a revision clause if possible, to protect you from so many unecessary revisions.

[FilmComposerZ]

I had a bad experience...I wrote the cues, recorded them stereo. Gave them to the editor/director. He called me back saying he wanted the individual instrument tracks as audio files. What!!!?

When he finished editing he had removed instruments from the individual cues and shifted certain instruments in time. Like taking looped samples and arranging them in the order he wanted....I hated it...

Pablo

[awpmusic]

Music can come first or last - it depends on the type of film and the way they're working. It's common for editors to work with music (temp tracks) to help them get a flow and pace - but your music would be written to a (near) final edit and replace the temp track.

Plays are different because you can't programme actors! I've just finished 20 odd cues for a play - working from director's notes and the script - it worked quite well but there is far less blending with the action than in a film because you just can't time some things reliably and expect them to happen bang on night after night.

[White Noise]

When he finished editing he had removed instruments from the individual cues and shifted certain instruments in time. Like taking looped samples and arranging them in the order he wanted....

Eugh. (shudder)