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EricDoggett
05-27-2005, 03:08 PM
Just to make sure, those of us with VOTA no longer have that incentive regarding the choir package? Or, to put it another way, everyone now has a 30% off discount now until launch?

Thanks,

Eric

andygrainger
05-27-2005, 05:02 PM
Yes...I was wondering about this also. Originally you had to be either a VOTA owner or have one of the symphony orchestra packages. I own Gold and VOTA, and was therefore pleased to see this incentive/upgrade path, however, up to May 31st it seems that anyone can have the 30% discount.
I guess it's all marketing, but there was supposed to be an extra saving for us VOTA owners above anyone else. This seems to have vanished, although i am grateful of the 30%discount, and did indeed place my order even before the demos came out. Perhaps those of us that qualify with the original criteria can have 700 points added to our sounds online points total? I'd be happy with that.

Chmara@gainbroadband.com
05-27-2005, 05:39 PM
I have 700 points I have not used. I ordered and paid for Pro Gold last year when the discount offer was ending. I also bought VOTA last year to make sure I had a dscount on choirs reserved. It seems that my compensation for waiting for Pro issue and owning VOTA is to receive permission to take the discount everyone else now will get...even if they did not stick to the cut-off deadlines.

I am probably in a minority. I am sure I cannot fault the de4ays to get theGold Pro product right. But either from misinformation or misunderstanding, I now find my "special deals" that tied up my cash from last year until now are not so special...in fact are rather than common.

Since I ordered my Pro upgrade through my dealer last year -- there is no way I can use my expiring points mentioned above -- since the discount for "pre-order"has been extended to so many, my initial discount for good faith it would come out as promised, is now common to all. And the compensation of offered package discounts with Choir and Ra -- means I have to commit more money to have any benefit of pre-paying and getting VOTA last year.

I have sent messages to Doug R on this -- and received very courteous replies directing me to the new package discounts.

Yes, I am sure the pro sound package is worth the wait. But - putting the money on my CC six months in advance -- makes me a little leary of ordering any other products-- particularly at a discount that is said to have been earned by paying for a discount that has not yet been honored. Now to find that same level of discount is available to other customers that did not pay early and/or get VOTA when it was said that VOTA would earn a further disount on Choirs . This really makes me question the process by which SOL is offering discounts.

Yes -- I am bitchin and moanin -- because I did not follow my instincts to wait to see if there would be a better discount or package than the initial offering. Today 1/3 off on something I can no longer afford is not (in my opinion) adequate realizayion and compensation for/of my situation and compensation for my early faith. I also, as a retired business person, can understand SOL's position of wanting to make the best out of a bad situation by having customers spend more for a discount on additional product. But that does not assuage my discontent over non-compensation for the non-on-time-delivery.

But -- that's entertainment. I guess at this point I am venting -- or talking to a point that SOL feel they cannot solve.

dach
05-28-2005, 07:44 AM
I was not going to post again about this but My Sentiments Exactly!

I'm in a similar situation as well but not with VOTA. By pre-ordering items, I found I could not take advantage of the current crop of bundle deals although those who did not pre order the same items I did can. Not the best of incentives in my opinion. Also what was the point in pre-ordering PRO... 4 months later and the same deal is still offered....and the product still has not shipped. The same with my RA order... I'll end up paying more for Choirs by the fact that I pre-ordered Pro and RA than the people who didn't scrape up the cash to make the original deadline. I certainly didn't pre-order only to be allowed to pay more than others who purchase the same items later.

The people who pre-ordered the PRO upgrades in January did not get a good deal as far as I'm concerned. The forum quote made by Doug about only earning 1% interest on your money should be insulting to any customer. Even if anyone went with that route, that's certainly more than anything anyone has been publicly offered from EW. Money tied up uselessly is a bad thing but still offering the same or even better deal to others is certainly not fair to the original people who paid 4 + months ago. Offering to cancel my PRO order after waiting several months is not really any consolation in my opinion. We ordered the library because we wanted the library. We also want the same deals as offered everyone else here as well... and not changing the original terms we purchased under. People pre-order to get the best deal offered not to get dissapointed! (I'm not referring at all to product delays here)

Also many people who were purchasing EW products to take advantage of the points situation also lose out. I'm glad someone addressed a similar situation with VOTA and the points here. The PM's I've had were also less than satisfactory on all these issues. The way I take it is by only offering to cancel my order and not give the same deals others get is a polite way of saying... piss off, I really don't care about you or your business because as you can see, I'm too busy selling to all these other people.

I generally don't want to post negative things either, especially because the products are so good but phone calls and PM's have not seemed to make any difference. You are not alone in not being happy with the situation. It looks like I may end up without the Choirs because I 'll have to pay a $125 penalty more than everyone else who purchases the same products... just because I pre-ordered. Not happy about this at all.

Chuck

George Bellas
05-28-2005, 08:29 AM
I noticed this too.

I remember Doug clearly stating that VOTA owners would receive a special discount when ordering EWQLSC. Now it seems there is no longer an incentive specifically for VOTA owners - everybody gets the "30% Pre-Order Discount".

Is this true? Or is there another link for the VOTA owners discount?

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 09:26 AM
Let me explain again, as I have to some of you privately.

At the same time we offered those that purchased the Pro Upgrades before January 31 (the original cut-off date) an extension to get Symphonic Choirs at a 30% discount was granted to your group right up to the Pro Upgrades release (which is a month longer than everyone else). In addition, we added VOTA owners, so they also got something extra. The link for those groups is here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-165UP

So you already have something our other customers don't have.

Also, you are not entitled to any points for pre-order discounts as I've explained many times. Our policy has always been that you cannot combine promotions. Even if they are currently in your account, they would have been removed, and actually, this is one of the reasons we ended the points program. It has become too difficult to manage and complicates many other promotions we want to run.

Frankly, I think you should be grateful we offer these promotional discounts which save you hundreds of dollars. There is no obligation on our part to offer owners of a previous choir library a discount on another choir library. SC is not an upgrade of VOTA, it is an entirely new product, and yet, not only did we offer a 30% discount prior to release, but we extended it for your group only.

Maybe the best way to avoid this criticism in the future is to not offer any discounts, like most of our competitors. Then we can avoid this.

- Doug

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 09:31 AM
The way I take it is by only offering to cancel my order and not give the same deals others get is a polite way of saying... piss off, I really don't care about you or your business because as you can see, I'm too busy selling to all these other people.Chuck

Chuck,

You didn't even respond to my last PM offer, and now you go public?

Read the post above this, we are about to end all promotional discounts and will not announce any new products until the ship date. It seems you can never win with some people.

- Doug

dach
05-28-2005, 09:37 AM
Please explain to me why it is necessary for me, as a customer who pre-ordered Pro and RA, to not be able to apply that money towards the Bundle price of Pro, RA and Choirs. Other people have been allowed to upgrade their orders to bundle deals, Why not me? The 30% discount you are offering on Choirs seperately will end up costing me well over $100 more than the bundle deal... which people are freely buying now...

Chuck

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 09:43 AM
Please explain to me why it is necessary for me, as a customer who pre-ordered Pro and RA, to not be able to apply that money towards the Bundle price of Pro, RA and Choirs. Other people have been allowed to upgrade their orders to bundle deals, Why not me? The 30% discount you are offering on Choirs seperately will end up costing me well over $100 more than the bundle deal... which people are freely buying now...

Chuck

Chuck,

That is EXACTLY the offer we made to you in our last PM which you never answered (check your mail).

- Doug

dach
05-28-2005, 09:44 AM
>>>You didn't even respond to my last PM offer, and now you go public?<<<

Doug,

It's not a question of me trying to win here... The offer of 30% off on the Choirs is not as good as the bundle deal. You have allowed other people here to upgrade their pre-orders to bundle deals but not me. I feel I have every right not to be happy about this.

You never replied to my last PM about this after your 30% offer. Why whould I take a worse offer than similar individuals are getting?

Chuck
---------------

edited>>>

I just checked my PM's.. I do not have any such offer. If I did I would not be on the forum now...

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 09:49 AM
>>>You didn't even respond to my last PM offer, and now you go public?<<<

Doug,

It's not a question of me trying to win here... The offer of 30% off on the Choirs is not as good as the bundle deal. You have allowed other people here to upgrade their pre-orders to bundle deals but not me. I feel I have every right not to be happy about this.

You never replied to my last PM about this after your 30% offer. Why whould I take a worse offer than similar individuals are getting?

Chuck

Chuck,

I'm running out of ways to word this. In my last PM to you, I offered to let you exchange your RA and PRO UPGRADE orders for the bundle. You never responded.

- Doug

dach
05-28-2005, 09:56 AM
Doug,

We are both obviously frustrated here. You probably have administrative rights to the forum here. You are welcome to check my mail account. I have never received any such offer from you. If I did, I would have already ordered it and that would have been that. I don't know what else to say here..

Doug Rogers
05-28-2005, 10:02 AM
Doug,

We are both obviously frustrated here. You probably have administrative rights to the forum here. You are welcome to check my mail account. I have never received any such offer from you. If I did, I would have already ordered it and that would have been that. I don't know what else to say here..

The offer has been made, and I also just made it again in a PM to you. Let's leave it there.

- Doug

George Bellas
05-28-2005, 10:15 AM
At the same time we offered those that purchased the Pro Upgrades before January 31 (the original cut-off date) an extension to get Symphonic Choirs at a 30% discount was granted to your group right up to the Pro Upgrades release (which is a month longer than everyone else). In addition, we added VOTA owners, so they also got something extra. The link for those groups is here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-165UP
- Doug

Thanks for the clarification Doug. I do appreciate it.

I bought VOTA in January mainly for the word building utility, but was dissapointed in that it was only for the PC, and the PC version wasn't working as expected either. From what I have gathered, the word builder technology in "Symphonic Choirs" is a refinement of the one from VOTA, so in a way, even though it's not marketed as such, I looked at it as an upgrade to the one from VOTA. Of course I understand that EWQLSC is a brand new library of sounds and is not an upgrade to VOTA, so no problem there.

Anyway, thanks for the 30% discount! Get out and have a great Memorial Day weekend! :)

sinkd
05-28-2005, 11:36 AM
...we are about to end all promotional discounts and will not announce any new products until the ship date. It seems you can never win with some people.

- Doug

Rats. :(

I hope that this is not set in stone, but such is life!

DS

AndyFinkenstadt
05-28-2005, 03:46 PM
exchange your RA and PRO UPGRADE orders for the bundle


I took advantage of this myself, although it was for GoldPro/Choirs to add Colossus (since by that time I had already bought RA.)

Awesomely kind of you guys. =)

andy

lovelysilence
05-28-2005, 05:22 PM
..., we are about to end all promotional discounts and will not announce any new products until the ship date. It seems you can never win with some people.

- Doug

You screwed it guys. Your quest for money and discounts has a malicious effect on the large majority of user who are all too happy with a 30% discount. I know you think you are entitled to an extra VOTA discount, but you should have taken the 'non-anger' path. All I can say is that Doug really has tried to mend it with you, but you just wouldn't listen. Makes me think of Lord of the Rings, but with a sad end.

Not for too long, but for a little while I hope you feel real bad about this.

Chmara@gainbroadband.com
05-29-2005, 01:01 PM
Lovely silence -

It is the right of every business person (Doug) to regulate his business and how it offers product within the law. Offering discounts on pre-orders in a wonderful tool developed over years by manufacturers to gauge the market, service customers with a need for the new product with proper initial production runs and planned delivery logistics-- while gaining cash flow during the development period.

Over my years in manufacturing and publishing I was also aware that it was necessary to make sure customers who took advantage of the early discounts were never challenged to think that anyone who did not use the initial offering would every have an opportunity as fortuitious again. Future offers would be available, but NEVER approaching the level of that for those who put their initial faith and money into my company's project.

A second thing I learned the hard way -- is that compensating a customer who feels miffed by offering him more product -- even at a discount -- asks the customer to put more faith (and money) into a company that has (at a minimum) goofed in protecting that special feeling the customer had with their orders.

SOL has always given me reasonable and good service. I felt very good about ordering Gold Pro last year -- and I have no problems with the delays in issue since I know the company will not issue the package until it is right.

My correspondence with Doug via PMs and going publlic on this board with my feelings about opening the same level of discount I received by meeting the initial deadline, then extending longer periods of time to others was to let the company know that I felt a little like a faithful spouse who walked into a room and found his/her mate in a passionate kiss with another person. My "special" relationship was not as it seemed maybe not special at all.

Discount policies are difficult to manage -- and in the heat of creativity and bringing new product to life many managers start short-cutting their own rules. They sometimes make blanket discounts available to all withut regard to the meaning of various discount levels. To me discounts are offered as a reward to those supporting the company with return business, helping the company with cash flow (often seen as a SMALL discount for cash payment or Net 10), to move Overstock items, and to close out items AFTER a substantial run at full retail proce.

Discounting is a sound business practice. But it has to be managed well to avoid conflict and probably never should be granted purely by management fiat without
applying a soundly thought-out set of rules to avoid the feel that the discount is JUST a ploy to get more cash in and more product sold in advance.

And - if SOL and Doug decide that a policy of NO discounts applies, that is well within their perogative. But for those of us who felt even slightly miffed at others receiving pre-production discounts well after we were told they would be discontinued NOT tell the company how we felt (and they are busy people) would have been a disservice the company and to all customers who might hold grudgningly similar views.

Let us say there are only 10 per cent of a customer base that feel this way in any situation. If they remain silent and dissapear as customers. This is not a great loss to many companies. But, if they do not feed back their discontent through company channels (such as this board and PMs) how will the company ever know that their application of discounts or their policies on creating them are creating a problem that can be easiuly avoided by taking an hour or two to draft a policy that is sound and protective of customer loyalty and feelings?

As with many people in business I am sure Doug is frustrated with the knowledge that his benevolent and kind offer for a pre-production discount worked well -- and that extending it for a longer period during production delays -- has miffed a probably insignificant number of us.
But, in this volatile business atmosphere creative business builders like Doug Rogers are allowed to make misteps and recover frm them in a manner best for them and their company.

That manner, unfortunately could be withdrawing all future discount, or it coulkd menifest itself in a tiered discount method -- or package pricing. Those are management decisions the consumer cannot make -- except in reponding by purchase or through communication with the company.

BTW -- I am an SOL fan -- discounts or no.

lovelysilence
05-31-2005, 01:29 AM
Hey, thorough post, nicely put. I agree on all points, even most on your point there has to be feedback from unhappy customers. Politeness and gratitude should never be left out though, and this is what imho has blown EW's excellent and generous discount system. Whatever way you turn it, EW's products are simple not expensive. Getting a discount on top of that, is even better. Demanding another 10% forcefully and emotionally doesn't stand in my view.
Also, being promised a discount, which apparently also other people get doesn't harm anyone, quite the contrary.
I understand the reaction, but don't approve of it.

Anyway, good post though.

Evan
05-31-2005, 01:42 AM
Maybe the best way to avoid this criticism in the future is to not offer any discounts, like most of our competitors. Then we can avoid this.

- Doug

I dont blame you after the "appreciation" some people are showing for these discounts. COME ON PEOPLE! Doug is OBVIOUSLY working hard to make the costumers happy as much as he is on the forum. SHOW SOME APPRECIATION!

PaulJGreblick
05-31-2005, 09:06 PM
<RANT>

Not to break the fun, but I don't care about discounts. I just like the tools that will get the job done in the best possible way. THe "job" being either high-paying for the bank account or the Inner Self. I'm not wealthy by any sort of standards, but I don't care. I'll do what I have to to get the amount I need for the tool. To buy something just because it's on sale is, in my worthless opinion, pretty self-debasing, as if you, yourself aren't worth something good if it's not on sale.

I say thht you're all worth it. Now granted, I don't wantch TV and I don't have the "expendible" time that most do, but that's fine, because I invest it in myself - learning, skills, strengthening what I already can do, etc.

You all sound like my wife and mother-in-law. They would spend $1,000,000 (if they had it) on something they moderately liked but was discounted or on sale and wouldn't spend $4.00 on something they absolutely love if it's "full price", whatever that is.

Self-dabasing b.s.

Will you all please stop bitching about discounts so Doug and folks can use the energy on creating useful tools? (And to be preachy, start investing it in your own self so by this time next year you'd have double your earning power?)

Thank you.

</RANT>

neoTypic
06-01-2005, 02:38 AM
I heartily agree Paul, but you have to consider the age range and earning potential of some of the members here. 300$ if half of my rent and a third of my income. That's a hefty amount. I'm probably one of the youngest on the board, my income isn't that much, I'm trying to save to be able to go to Berklee (I've been accepted for a couple of years now), and yes, I do sometimes question whether my ability is even worth me spending the money of these kind of products simply because I may NEVER make money doing this and who knows whether I'm good enough? ;)

I may love a product and wish to buy it but be unable to until it is in my price range.

Not all of us buy things just because they go on sale, we buy them because they are finally within our budget if we cut some other niceties out of our budget. Like I've jokingly said before, "Mmmm ramen." ;) I honestly don't mind sacrificing things to pursue music even though half the time I curse myself as being stupid for "wasting" money on a kids dream. :D

My self worth doesn't fluctuate with the pricing, but it does make it easier to let myself make these kinds of purchases.

These are very good points nonetheless bud and again, I do agree. Wise words, bravo.

Cheers! :)

PaulJGreblick
06-01-2005, 06:48 AM
I heartily agree Paul, but you have to consider the age range and earning potential of some of the members here. 300$ if half of my rent and a third of my income. That's a hefty amount. I'm probably one of the youngest on the board, my income isn't that much, I'm trying to save to be able to go to Berklee (I've been accepted for a couple of years now), and yes, I do sometimes question whether my ability is even worth me spending the money of these kind of products simply because I may NEVER make money doing this and who knows whether I'm good enough? ;)

I may love a product and wish to buy it but be unable to until it is in my price range.

Not all of us buy things just because they go on sale, we buy them because they are finally within our budget if we cut some other niceties out of our budget. Like I've jokingly said before, "Mmmm ramen." ;) I honestly don't mind sacrificing things to pursue music even though half the time I curse myself as being stupid for "wasting" money on a kids dream. :D

My self worth doesn't fluctuate with the pricing, but it does make it easier to let myself make these kinds of purchases.

These are very good points nonetheless bud and again, I do agree. Wise words, bravo.

Cheers! :)

1) You're worth it.

2) You're good enough.

This needs to be said so that with the age that you are (whatever "young" means, by the way) that you can get this out of the way forever. I just wish I had someone to bottom-line it for me so I didn't waste 15 years "in the shadows of my own deram". Nice thing about a dream, however, is that like MT. Everest, it doesn't go away just because you, I or anyone turns our backs on it.

The trick is to simply be "who you are" as accurately and as best as you can, perceived weaknesses and all. The music will come from you naturally. You won't even have to try at that point.

Look, Dude, you got accepted to Berklee. Just know that the only thing that they or any kind of music, art, school, etc, is bring out what you already have in you. This college is what I wanted to go to as well, but could never have afforded it even with loans.

So, to wax philosophical (or to "wax off" like the Karate Kid), there's a saying that I'd like to add my 2 bits to.

"If the doors aren't open (because of money, opportunity, whatever), look for the open window."

I'd like to add the following -

"If there ARE no windows then blast a hole through the wall."

At least you'll feel like you were in a comic book movie. And you'll get more than just a few girls as long as your skin isn't green...

neoTypic
06-01-2005, 07:04 AM
*laughs* Thanks bud. ;)

I only meant "young" chronologically. :p

Yeah, I'm afraid that I won't be able to get enough coverage with loans either. I'm going to keep trying though.

I need my own theme song then. :cool:

And you can nix the girls, I have plenty of female friends, I need one decent guy. *laughs* :D

PaulJGreblick
06-01-2005, 10:25 AM
And one thing I forgot to add -

Expect miracles. They're the only way anything really works in the world and gets done.

spikey
06-01-2005, 08:35 PM
Maybe the best way to avoid this criticism in the future is to not offer any discounts, like most of our competitors. Then we can avoid this.

That - in my opinion Doug, would be a big mistake. Granted im sure this job gets to you after dealing with us for a while... ;) But- your not "one" of your no discount competitors. Thats what makes it all work Doug... Your discounts have brought in many new people, including myself. Why? Because otherwise alot of us just couldnt afford it Doug. This software of yours is great stuff, but very expensive for a normal joe blow and his home studio. Your discounts help us to level the playing field so to speak. Just because a few have rubbed you the wrong way on the VOTA to SC discounts thang, does not mean we "all" deserve no more discounts from you. One of the reasons you bring new users into this high-priced software arena of yours, is from the discounts offered by your company, and then it gets spread by word of mouth/type to many high traffic forums. The comment you make above does you no credit, and quite frankly pisses me off. That although you can do what you see fit with your products, you would punnish the many because of a few who upset the apple cart. Please take this frustration or threat, or what ever it is thats bugging you elsewhere, because I for one didnt cause it, dont deserve the "no more discounts" vibe mindset, and would hate to lose future discounts on the coat tails of a few who obviously pushed one of your buttons the wrong way. Not to mention the extra moola involved you would be missing out on, for those of us who could afford the discounted versions but not the full priced ones. Please get over it if there is something to get over, and thanks for any future discounts in advance.


regards,

S

lovelysilence
06-02-2005, 12:45 PM
Expect miracles. They're the only way anything really works in the world and gets done.

Nicely put, Paul. I'm totally with you on the discount thing. Being a young man, i would need the discounts, i think, but in the end i'll have what i need and be able to use at any given time in my life.

cheers

and by the way, i can tell the miracle thing works, although some things take a little longer to manifest than others :)