Oh look; another Sonar vs Cubase topic!

[Sp3ctre18]

Ok, i've never worked with any sort of thing like this, except having seen and kinda undertand piano roll :P What I used to do was write my music in Sibelius, but of course, I want to move to EWQL Gold. So, I'm looking at Sonar and Cubase.

I've been doing my researhc. Asked in another boards for input on the two, I've been searching the internet, reading reviews, and topics in other message boards, including here. Problem is, again, i'm new to all this, most of that stuff is over my head and I don't get it, probably won't until I have one of these. I have some basic terms down though, I think :P


So here's what I think you need to know: I compose mainly Film and Clasical music. That's what I do. As I sometimes but rarely do in Sibelius, mainly, I plan to get the music in by recording the midi output from my keybaord.

I understand Cubase and Sonar are pretty similar, and it might end up being a matter of just choosing one, but I'm still trying to see if one can fit my needs better. Right now, Sonar seems to look better, because the general idea i'm getting through my research, is that, although Cubase and Sonar are both almost equally good, Cubase may be slightly better for elecrtronic music stuff, while Sonar may be slightly better for Orchestral works (basically, although Cubse may have more midi tools, they're not things i would use, and so Sonar is just fine.

Anyone have anything to add to help me choose?

My setup for purchase is

Sonar Studio edition ($250 as upgrade from Music Creator*) or Cubase SX3 ($300 educational edition)
EWQL Gold ($350)

That's 600 - 650 dollars. I don't think my parents would be willing to pay any more, so the rest I'll pay myself. <.<

Upgrade to 2 GB RAM (I only have 512 right now)
Soundcard (see below)

My computer is Windows XP home, 3GHz with HT.
Low HD space, though I should be able to clear up quite a few tens of GB after I move some videos to DVD.


Btw, I only have integrated audio and I've been told I'll need a soundcard for both the sound quality and less latency in recording. I don't really know what's good out there, so I hope someone can give me links or tell me which soundcard (something good quality, good compatibility), and where for the lowest price. I think the extra RAM may cost roughly $150 - $200, so I really hope the soundcard can be under $100. <.<

Thanks a lot. Hope I can get this figured out within the next few days.

----
* I never really used Music Creator, so it doesn't make me any more familair to the Cakewalk layout. I simply got it for $20, discounted at circuit city.

[Russell_D]

For soundcard, have a look at the creative (soundblaster) website. I have an Audigy 2. 24 bit / 96 kHz with ASIO drivers is what you're looking for, for best results.

[Lerue]

May I suggest that as an alternative to SoundBlasters Audigy Cards, you look into the Affordable and Professional Quality M Audio Cards. Their 2496 has been a staple in the industry for a while now, and it is a true 24 bit Card.

[Petronome]

I just switched from Sonar to Cubase, because of the orchestral stuff. So I'd definetly say that Cubase is better for orchestral stuff. It's mainly because of its midi-capabilities: for example the automation is just much easier in it.

I used Sonar for several years, and always thought it's easier to use, but actually Cubase is superior also in the area of GUI. Cubase looks much nicer with its graphical elements, and believe it or not, the look of a software has a huge impact on the working. It's more handy to use for other reasons, too.

Now when I got used to Cubase (didn't really take more than couple of days), the Sonar interface feels just so cramped.

Maybe you should try the demos of both software (if you can find the cubase demo somewhere, it doesn't seem to be distributed anymore, maybe some retailer..?), and find which one suits your needs.

Petri

Oh, and for soundcard, just stay away from SoundBlasters, I'd never recommend them for audio-use, they're for gaming. Just grab the M-Audio 2496, it's cheap (less than 100 USD), and its drivers are rock-solid, so it's great for plugin-use.

[kstevege]

I'm with Petronome

I do mainly orchestral composition (East West rules!) and I switched from Sonar to Cubase because I think Cubase's GUI is outstanding and overall I think Cubase has a more polished, professional, look. Sonar is a great application but it seems to be geared more for rock and loop based recording. And to me, Sonar's GUI does not seem to have evolved so much from its original garage/basement production days making it seem like more of a amatuer application. (In fact Sonar's GUI resembles the freeware version of REAPER). You'll see Sonar targeted more for a rap based audience and Cubase more for orchestral composers. Plus, unlike Sonar, Cubase is used by many top film composers such as Hans Zimmer and Gregson Williams for their mockups and trailers. That says a lot for Steinberg.

In a nutshell, for midi based recording, I think Cubase is a much better choice than Sonar.

P.S.

If you are serious about recording then you need to have a good audio card. Stay away from Soundblaster. If you like Creative, go with the EMU series..

[rabdaddy]

SONAR 5 does have one "must have" feature Cubase doesn't imo. Well implemented midi scrubbing. I've been requesting this feature for as long as I been a Cubase user. I realize this isn't a touted feature by those who never used it but for others like myself, midi scrubbing (in the key-editor) is the absolute best way to access and edit midi, (modifier key + mouse wipe plays back midi).

So I installed the Sonar 5 demo and sure enough - midi scrubbing!!! Too bad it's such a convoluted mess of a program - audio drops, and clutter abound. Real ugly and cryptic GUI. I love most every aspect of Cubase but I fear the lack of interest from users will diminish Steinberg's interest for adding midi scrubbing to both SX3 and Nuendo.

Rabdaddy

[SOJO7]

I guess I'll be the odd one out on this one...

I'm a Cakewalk user. Started out with HomeStudio 2004. From there I moved on to SONAR 5 Producer Edition. I don't see anything convoluted about its GUI. It's very straightforward. Because of how truly deep SONAR is, it does put some high demands on your comp. CPU/RAM-wise so there will be drop-outs if you push too far. But the program itself is amazing. Lots of midi effects and control options are available there. I tried Cubase and just didn't see as much "beef" as SONAR has. I'd personally take SONAR 5 Producer Edition over CubaseSX3 hands down.:)

P.S. I can't vouch for the Studio Edition... but the Producer Edition rocks.:D

[Petronome]

Also remember that there are both Cubase SX 4 and Sonar 6 coming out real soon, so that may change the situation.

Anyway, for me the lack of midi scrubbing doesn't matter that much, I ain't no scrub fan anyways.. But naturally, Sonar does have also some other advantages over Cubase, on top of the list the MUCH easier effecting (i.e. draggable inserts, and that you can change the order of the effects afterwards, though, that will probably be there in SX4).

So I wouldn't say either Cubase or Sonar is superior in EVERYTHING, both of the have some compromises, but still, I'd take Cubase over Sonar for midi and orchestral work.

Petri

[Sp3ctre18]

Remember I'm a noob here :p What exactly is midi scrubbing? And I've heard about that automation stuff, I'm not sure what it is. And what other midi tools does Sonar not have that I would want to orchestral stuff (i read in an earlier post that one thing is that Sonar does not have acceess to modulation? is that one things? and what's modulation exactly? Is that midi vibrato?) However, someone told me that Sonar is better for recording midi from a keyboard, so not sure if that changes anything. Anyone agree or can say why? and if so, What's this i keep hearing about dongles? What is it why is it some people seem against it?

Anyway, for me then, writing orchestral and classical stuff, should it thus be Cubase, hands down pretty much? Is there anything Sonar has over Cubase (besides a free upgrade :D ) that I would be interested, or should I shut up, enough of this (been going like week i've bene looking at them and trying to choose), and just get Cubase already?

Looks like it's almost unanimous what sound card I could get. Where should i get it? If online is cheaper, a link please? Please make sure its a trusted site. ;) (oh yeah, some help on the RAM would be nice too. I need to check my RAM slots, but i need either two sticks of 1 GB, or (most likely) 1 of 1 GB, and 1 of 512)

btw, not that i plan on buying one anyway, but is there any need for a better sampler like kontakt 2, or am I fine with EWQL's kompakt for now?

Thank for the help so far

[Petronome]

Remember I'm a noob here :p What exactly is midi scrubbing? And I've heard about that automation stuff, I'm not sure what it is. And what other midi tools does Sonar not have that I would want to orchestral stuff (i read in an earlier post that one thing is that Sonar does not have acceess to modulation? is that one things? and what's modulation exactly? Is that midi vibrato?) However, someone told me that Sonar is better for recording midi from a keyboard, so not sure if that changes anything. Anyone agree or can say why? and if so, What's this i keep hearing about dongles? What is it why is it some people seem against it?

Anyway, for me then, writing orchestral and classical stuff, should it thus be Cubase, hands down pretty much? Is there anything Sonar has over Cubase (besides a free upgrade :D ) that I would be interested, or should I shut up, enough of this (been going like week i've bene looking at them and trying to choose), and just get Cubase already?

Looks like it's almost unanimous what sound card I could get. Where should i get it? If online is cheaper, a link please? Please make sure its a trusted site. ;) (oh yeah, some help on the RAM would be nice too. I need to check my RAM slots, but i need either two sticks of 1 GB, or (most likely) 1 of 1 GB, and 1 of 512)

btw, not that i plan on buying one anyway, but is there any need for a better sampler like kontakt 2, or am I fine with EWQL's kompakt for now?

Thank for the help so far

Midi scrubbing (and scrubbing in genereal) is that you drag the mouse over the notes and hear them. Basically.

The one great feature in Cubase (about automation) are the controller lanes. You can open as many 'lanes' below the track in track window and draw envelopes there controlling volume, expression, mod (the EWQLSO cross-fade etc. controller) and just about anything else.

Sonar does have acces to modulation, but you have to do it via piano-roll which isn't even nearly as handy as the track lanes in Cubase. But of course, in cubase you can also do it via piano-roll if you like it that way.

Dongles suck, but not that bad that it would have any dramatic effect on my buying of a software. Do a net search and find out yourself.. Basically, it's a crucial little stick you have to protect and keep in your computer, think if that will be a problem for you.

Sonar is no better for recording midi than Cubase. If something, it's worse, but I don't find them that different on that area.

Again, try both and find out which one you like. No one can decide for you. I'd take Cubase, but that's just me.

About ram, just get right speed, that's pretty much only thing that matters. And identical sticks of you take more than one. I would mind any over-clocker high priced models, the speed advantage ain't that great. At least one gig is a must. Two gigs help alot, but is still too little for large orchestrations.

I'm planning on getting Kontakt 2 mainly for its 'purge' function, with which you can, after you've created a line for an instrument, "throw away" the samples not in use from the memory. Handier than freezing (especially in Cubase, see my thread at the tech support forum), and a big help stretching the ram boundaries.

Petri

[Russell_D]

2 * 2 GB RAM sticks is as far as you can go in a Windows XP 32 bit setup. That assumes that you're going to want all of your samples in RAM rather than Direct From Disk. (RAM is better).

[SOJO7]

Are you guys talking about SONAR 5? Because SONAR5 does allow you "line control" of mod wheel effects and the like. Those envelopes can made for just about anything with SONAR 5 Producer. It DOES have access to modulation through lines and node adjustment.

Actually I can't think of anything that Cubase has that SONAR5 Producer doesn't... but we do know that SONAR has some things that SX3 doesn't...

I'd still say SONAR is the better choice...

[Petronome]

Are you guys talking about SONAR 5? Because SONAR5 does allow you "line control" of mod wheel effects and the like. Those envelopes can made for just about anything with SONAR 5 Producer. It DOES have access to modulation through lines and node adjustment.


Oh yes it does allow, all the envelopes on top of the waveform/midi-data. But for me it's quite alot easier to see all envelopes on their own lanes, as overlapping envelopes are rather hard to follow.

Still, try out yourself which one do you like, there is no answer which is better.

Petri

[SOJO7]

Ah, I see what you're saying...:) they can be isolated though... I'll look into seeing if you can give an effect its own track... but again, you can single out the envelope you're editing and hide the rest.

[Sp3ctre18]

Midi scrubbing (and scrubbing in genereal) is that you drag the mouse over the notes and hear them. Basically.

mm, not a big deal though, i guess. I can read notes, i know what i'm putting, a simple playback may be ok for me. looks like just a nice little feature though, no big deal.


The one great feature in Cubase (about automation) are the controller lanes. You can open as many 'lanes' below the track in track window and draw envelopes there controlling volume, expression, mod (the EWQLSO cross-fade etc. controller) and just about anything else.

Sonar does have acces to modulation, but you have to do it via piano-roll which isn't even nearly as handy as the track lanes in Cubase. But of course, in cubase you can also do it via piano-roll if you like it that way.

I can't figure them out or find anything similar in Sonar at all. I see little bars on the lower part of the piano roll that indicate volume, but no way to edit it or anything. But then, i'm not trying to fool around much right now cause i'm afraid it'll crash...and i'm working on a few things. once i'm done i'll get back to exploring.


Again, try both and find out which one you like. No one can decide for you. I'd take Cubase, but that's just me.

No retailer in my area, so no offense to anyone else, but no more of this suggestion; I simply can't try out Cubase :p

And yeah, I know how to choose RAM. Its just that this is a lot of RAM and it'll cost quite a bit. I'm not really sure where to go online, I don't know much about it, so it'd be nice if someone can help and give me some links to some good quality ram (ie kingston), at a trusted site, and as cheap as possible :p I'm also not sure on the ram. My RAM is 333MHz pc2700 DDR. That's not dual channel, but is there stil a good idea why thre sticks should be paired? or enough of a reason, because I'd try to go for one stick of 512 to pair with the existing one, and another of 1 GB, unpaired. That's cheaper (i assume) than 2 sticks of 1 GB, and, in the future, the unpaired 1 gig can be paired if I upgrade one more gb.

oh, and same goes for the soundcard; I already know which one, just not sure where.... thanks.

Also, again, i'm trying to see if I, as mainly an film / classical composer writing orchestral works, can see any good reason for choosing one over the other. Ok, the idea seems that generally cubase is better for that and more midi features or whatever. The main issues i think I see is that Sonar has audio dropouts? and cubase has some sort of "controller bleeding." Both sound liek scary stuff, though i'm not to sure what they are and if or how it should influence my decision. <.<

if anyone has any extra input or replies to some of the things mentioed there, my other topic is here: http://www.allmediastudios.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4578&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 A certain issue i'm wondering about is when someone said he didn't like how makes "musical" or midi "assumptions," which may not be something a composer like me may like...

in the meantime thougg, my parents seem to have gotten even more relutant, want to see how i handle college first. <.< that would mean sonar 6 and Cubase 4 can come out, but then, again looking into them, and their being really new and maybe buggy...if i'm forced to wait, in the meantime i might be stuck with ewql working with sibelius, or in the sonar demo.
Sonar demo could use EWQL right? just like or similar to how I loaded the vsts?

gah, this is such a mess right now. -.-

[SOJO7]

The only time in SONAR when you experience audio "Drop Outs" is when you've pushed your CPU usage/Hardware Processing capability too far. There's an indicator on the bottom-right corner and you can adjust your latency settings accordingly.

I can't figure them out or find anything similar in Sonar at all. I see little bars on the lower part of the piano roll that indicate volume, but no way to edit it or anything.

Those are the track settings. You want to create a track envelope. That's where you get the power to edit as you see fit. Look it up in SONAR's help menu. If you don't see it there, let me know. I'll walk you through it.:)

As far as RAM goes, if you're really serious about composing for film... 2 gigs of RAM is mininum. You'll want no less than that... especially when things start to get really taxing.:)

[Tomcat]

For computer hardware I suggest you look at www.newegg.com first. They have really good prices and sell name brand memory.

Tom

[tgfoo]

I personally used Sonar over Cubase when I sequenced on a PC. It's that Sonar is particularly better than Cubase, I just liked it more. But really, they'll both get the job done, and it seems that whenever one has a feature that the other doesn't have, it gets introduced in the next upgrade anyways. So I'd just try them both out and decide which you like better.

[Sp3ctre18]

bump

and a quick question. The 2 GB ram mimum, is that because of EWQL and Sonar/Cubase? By any chance, would it make any difference if I used a demo version? like, how's 1.5 GB for EWQL Gold, and Sonar 5 demo (and possibly Kontakt 2 demo)?

[SOJO7]

and a quick question. The 2 GB ram mimum, is that because of EWQL and Sonar/Cubase? By any chance, would it make any difference if I used a demo version? like, how's 1.5 GB for EWQL Gold, and Sonar 5 demo (and possibly Kontakt 2 demo)?

Well, that's kind of a tricky question. I take it you're asking if there will be a great sacrifice between 1.5 and 2GB of RAM using EWQLSO GOLD and SONAR. The short answer is no, you should be fine. You just won't be able to push your compositions as far as those with 2+gigs of RAM.

In music, your computer's performance is a careful balance between the CPU, RAM, Soundcard, and HardDrive transfer speeds (when streaming). The stronger any of those are, the better. I say 2GB of RAM minimum for serious composers because when you do complex arrangements... especially if you're responsible for your own mixing, the more RAM and CPU power you have, the better. It allows for more instruments and bigger samples. You can use your HardDrive to help with RAM trouble (DFD), but that will put some more stress on your CPU.

With slower songs, or a low polyphony count/lower number of instruments used and played at once, you shouldn't experience any trouble. However, as you get faster and more complex with your arrangements, that's when you really start to feel it.

Hope that answers your question.:)

[Sp3ctre18]

ah, I see. Yeah, I probably won't be doing anything too complex since it'll jsut be the Sonar demo, and I risk losing stuff in a crash or whatever. thanks a lot.