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View Full Version : Possible to switch instrument articulations by patch change?


drdavidbrucesmith
02-18-2016, 02:26 PM
Hi, I am investigating the use of this remarkable sounding sample set for my projects. I have been involved in MIDI composition since the 80's and I have a large set of compositions that I feel would transfer over to this orchestral set quite well.

However, my process for dealing with multi-articulations depended on the ability to switch articulation by patch change number. This is very useful, particularly when working on pieces and wanting to transpose entire sections (A note on paradigm will also transpose the key switch, and so addirtional effort is required to track and tweak these areas).

I have been able to use the patch change protocol in many many other systems (EMulator, Gigastudio, Kontakt, etc etc). I am hoping that there is a way to map articulation to patch change: otherwise it may not be worth the effort to me.

I have been reading the documentation (The Eastwest Play 4 System), and I do not seem to be able to find whether this is possible.

Anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

Thanks

admin
02-18-2016, 09:13 PM
This is coming in the next update.

drdavidbrucesmith
02-19-2016, 07:06 AM
Yay! I look forward to the improved interface!

kstevege
02-21-2016, 11:25 AM
This is coming in the next update.

ETA? :)

chuckgreenjr
02-29-2016, 10:26 AM
Any idea when we can expect the new PLAY update to be released with Program Change capability? This would be very useful for Pro Tools users.

wine888riter
02-29-2016, 01:18 PM
Sorry, what is patch change protocol?

I googled it, but didn't get anything that I thought was what is being talked about.

chuckgreenjr
03-01-2016, 06:42 AM
Many virtual instruments have the ability to select different articulations using the Program Change feature that's available in most if not all sequencers. So instead of having an individual tracks for each articulation for a single instrument (i.e. staccato, sustain, legato, etc.), one uses a single track then triggers the articulation using Program Change. Cubase offers expression maps that allow one to assign each channel in the PLAY engine a different articulation, then using a single track, one can switch between the loaded articulations. Logic and Pro Tools do not. There is a couple of apps. out there for Logic to accommodate the functionality but program change is already built into Logic and Pro Tools.

Bottom line... It simplifies and reduces the overall track count allowing a single track to drive a single instrument with up to 16 articulations (16 channels in PLAY). Also great for scoring and MIDI control because the entire instruments MIDI flows on a single track using the same expression and modulation lanes for all articulations loaded for that single instrument.

Hope that clarifies for you.

Chuck

wcreed51
03-01-2016, 07:08 AM
Program Change is somewhat archaic (from the days of hardware sound sources), though still very useful, having been supplanted by keyswitchs or other controller messages.

The new VST3 standard doesn't include Program Change, and it's yet to be seen how it's future will play out.

jspencer
03-01-2016, 08:23 AM
Program Change is somewhat archaic (from the days of hardware sound sources), though still very useful, having been supplanted by keyswitchs or other controller messages.

The new VST3 standard doesn't include Program Change, and it's yet to be seen how it's future will play out.

Agreed, I really don't see a need for it with modern systems.

keyman_sam
03-01-2016, 11:35 AM
Many virtual instruments have the ability to select different articulations using the Program Change feature that's available in most if not all sequencers. So instead of having an individual tracks for each articulation for a single instrument (i.e. staccato, sustain, legato, etc.), one uses a single track then triggers the articulation using Program Change. Cubase offers expression maps that allow one to assign each channel in the PLAY engine a different articulation, then using a single track, one can switch between the loaded articulations. Logic and Pro Tools do not. There is a couple of apps. out there for Logic to accommodate the functionality but program change is already built into Logic and Pro Tools.

Bottom line... It simplifies and reduces the overall track count allowing a single track to drive a single instrument with up to 16 articulations (16 channels in PLAY). Also great for scoring and MIDI control because the entire instruments MIDI flows on a single track using the same expression and modulation lanes for all articulations loaded for that single instrument.

Hope that clarifies for you.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

What you described with cubase is exactly what I want to do - one track per instrument group. I have C7.5/8 and Ve pro with Ew Cc. Is this possible right now or is it a feature yet to be implemented with play?

LMW
03-01-2016, 11:44 AM
Expression maps are only available for Cubase Pro. The manual explains it quite well, IMO.

chuckgreenjr
03-01-2016, 12:08 PM
Hi Chuck,

What you described with cubase is exactly what I want to do - one track per instrument group. I have C7.5/8 and Ve pro with Ew Cc. Is this possible right now or is it a feature yet to be implemented with play?

Yes... you can set up articulations for a single track using PLAY and expression maps. Just assign an expression to the channel in PLAY that contains the expression. You can use symbols or the actual patch name. What ever you choose.

Chuck

chuckgreenjr
03-01-2016, 12:13 PM
Program Change is somewhat archaic (from the days of hardware sound sources), though still very useful, having been supplanted by keyswitchs or other controller messages.

The new VST3 standard doesn't include Program Change, and it's yet to be seen how it's future will play out.

In Pro Tools, I prefer using Program Change when using VSL rather than Keyswitches. It keeps the score part clean and still accomplishes the task. I love the expression maps in Cubase but for me, PT is much more stable - always has been so Prog Chg works fine. Will be great to have too when using PLAY versus individual tracks which are cumbersome especially after getting use to using a different method.

Chuck

drdavidbrucesmith
03-03-2016, 02:11 PM
Although key switches is a useful way to apply quick articulation changes when performing on a keyboard, there are issues associated with keyswitch protocol when doing significant sequencing work.

1) If one decides to transpose a particular section, then the keyswitches are also transposed: this becomes problematic for composition and arrangement. Also, a keyswitch is expressed in MIDI as a note on event (which it is not). If one wanted to filter out all articulation changes, then one must have intelligence about which note ons are actual notes and which are control notes: this may or may not be predictable. Patch (or program) changes have a separate header, and so can be filtered without ambiguity.

2) The number of different keyswitches is limited to the value 127 - (note range of instrument). If the instrument has an extremely wide range then the number of possible articulations is smaller. patch changes have a possible number (using CC messages for banks) of 128 * 128 * 128 or 2^21 different patches. At the minimum, one can have 128 different articulations with patch change but a maximum of 127 with keyswitch (if we have an instrument with only one pitch!)

I am not disagreeing with the value of keyswitch for certain situations: howe3ver in interest of flexibility it makes sense to support both techniques (since it IS part of the MIDI Specification)

drdavidbrucesmith
03-03-2016, 02:31 PM
In my reply dated 3/3 I note some issues with the keyswitch protocol that can be solved with program change, and thus meaning that program change is not "dated"

chuckgreenjr
03-03-2016, 06:06 PM
In my reply dated 3/3 I note some issues with the keyswitch protocol that can be solved with program change, and thus meaning that program change is not "dated"

Agree.

jamieboo
03-04-2016, 04:41 AM
Anyone using the method of each track set to multichannel, then having multiple articulations each set to different channel; then choosing which articulation you want at a given time/note just by changing the midi channel of the note/s in question?
I tried that once ages ago - and I can't remember why I abandoned it as a method.

chuckgreenjr
03-04-2016, 05:51 AM
Anyone using the method of each track set to multichannel, then having multiple articulations each set to different channel; then choosing which articulation you want at a given time/note just by changing the midi channel of the note/s in question?
I tried that once ages ago - and I can't remember why I abandoned it as a method.

I tried that years ago in Logic. The issue for me was that yes, I changed the channel in the automation lane which changed the articulation fine but each time I had to re-sync/re-align the Expression (cc11) and Mod (cc1) lanes which was a real pain. Cubase came along with expression maps and to me, that's been the absolute best implementation. The controllers remain continuous while switching between articulations (channels) which allow for a increased realistic musical performance flow.

Chuck

drdavidbrucesmith
03-04-2016, 06:00 AM
Anyone using the method of each track set to multichannel, then having multiple articulations each set to different channel; then choosing which articulation you want at a given time/note just by changing the midi channel of the note/s in question?
I tried that once ages ago - and I can't remember why I abandoned it as a method.

Not sure why you in particular abandoned this, but here are some issues that immediately come to mind:

If you have complicated passages with different articulations (say you had a 5 note passage where the articulation is sforzando-legato, staccato, staccato, legato portamento, legato), you have to take a single melodic line and break it into multiple tracks: thus the phraseology is distributed across multiple areas and you have to go to multiple tracks to make relatively simple adjustments.

Certain types of instruments (strings for example) have a very large list of articulations: I currently employ about 50 (when including con sordino, martele, col legno, sul ponticello, etc). For each individual part, you would then need to have that number of separate tracks: this could run into the 100's of tracks.

Global changes (volume, expression, etc) need to be applied to multiple channels: balancing becomes tricky.

I shudder to consider how one would convert this particular strategy to music notation.

jamieboo
03-04-2016, 06:45 AM
Not sure why you in particular abandoned this, but here are some issues that immediately come to mind:

If you have complicated passages with different articulations (say you had a 5 note passage where the articulation is sforzando-legato, staccato, staccato, legato portamento, legato), you have to take a single melodic line and break it into multiple tracks: thus the phraseology is distributed across multiple areas and you have to go to multiple tracks to make relatively simple adjustments.

Certain types of instruments (strings for example) have a very large list of articulations: I currently employ about 50 (when including con sordino, martele, col legno, sul ponticello, etc). For each individual part, you would then need to have that number of separate tracks: this could run into the 100's of tracks.

Global changes (volume, expression, etc) need to be applied to multiple channels: balancing becomes tricky.

I shudder to consider how one would convert this particular strategy to music notation.

Dr David, I think you misunderstood what I meant (I probably described it badly)! What you describe above is how I always work: A different track for each articulation. Yes it is unwieldy - I have nearly 200 tracks - but I've got used to it.
The alternative I was trying to describe earlier was having the entire phrase made of multiple articulations on a single track - switching between the different articulations by changing the midi channels of the notes in question.

djhg
06-14-2016, 02:08 PM
Don't the expression EWQL expression maps downloadable for cubase resolve this? I am working on the learning curve for adjusting expressions and legato types and hoping to follow these discussions.