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Brian Wardell
06-01-2005, 10:22 PM
How about we delete all the posts that aren't votes from the voting thread and just discuss concerns or whatever in a different thread, like this one? I think that it would help make things go smoother (unless some folks don't want it to. I don't know.)


My personal take on it? Well, there is no way to guarantee that everyone will listen to every post. I know I did (it was painful sitting through hours of it in one sitting, as it all started to mesh together. ;)) and I know which ones I think are the best, although I'm going to give a few more a listen and then make a few final decisions. What can we do though? I don't really worry about people not listening as much as I worry about people getting their friends to sign up and vote for them, regardless of the quality of the other entries. Sort of a popularity contest rather than going on the merits of the individual compositions. It would be nice if everyone listened to every second of every demo, but it's just not going to happen. I would think that it is especially so for those who submitted a lot of works. I mean there is a temptation to listen to a couple and just assume that's what all a persons works are going to sound like, especially if the first two listned to are very close to eachother in style and mood. I went ahead and listened to them all, but I just don't think everyone will, and I'm OK with that. I do hope they at least give them a try though. Listen for at least a few seconds to at least one song by each composer before making a decision.

I don't think we should be griping about this right now though. Let's let the first month's contest go on through as planned without complaining, and see how it goes. If there are percieved problems then we can address them after we've seen how the current system pans out. That's my opinion on it anyway. I mean, unless they are planning to pull the plug after a month or two (which I would guess is more likely if it becomes a headache with all sorts of griping) then there will be plenty of time for most of us to at least have an opportunity to win, right?

dcoscina
06-01-2005, 10:27 PM
I guess my only suggestion is that I would prefer if Doug/Nick did the judging since they are in a more objective seat. Whatever demo impresses them insofar as the use of their sound libraries is concerned would be the criteria that would be the defining characteristic for the winning piece.

I heard a lot of great MUSIC from the selections- really good pieces of music, but not necessarily the best use of the sounds. I believe it is how the sounds are used most realistically that determine the winner. Maybe that's just my perception. Like I said, lots of talent and great music chops on the demos. :)

Oneilio
06-01-2005, 10:36 PM
crap i wrote another thread that took me 30 minutes to write so you beat me to it! Moderator, please delete my topic, i'll paste it right here.

Ok, the problem with the voting process is that most people aren't going to sit down and listen to all 90 million of the entries and then make an educated vote. I have been a judge in online music contests held in forums, and i've also been admin at forums, so i know how we can do this easily, and fast. Here's my idea for how it should work.

During the process where participants will enter their songs in the contest (same way we did for this contest), we will have another thread open where people can volunteer to be judges. Judges should be fairly skilled musicians, so one wouldn't volunteer to judge if he/she knew he weren't skilled. After we get a few volunteers, a moderator or admin or somebody will decide which 5 (this number can change) should be judges. The remaining volunteers who were not selected can judge future contests (meaning, we'll have some new judges each time).

After the contest submission period ends, the 5 judges will listen to all of them and each of them will vote on which submission should win. Each participant will only be allowed 1 entry so the judging doesn't take forever. The judges will them PM their choices to Doug, or Nick, or somebody, and that somebody will make a new topic announcing the winner.

Some of you were complaining saying that this will be more work on the admin then it should be, well it's not, because they won't be the ones judging. all they'll have to do is possibly pick judges (quick and easy), and make the new thread announcing the winner. If all 5 judges vote for 5 different pieces, then we'll bring in a 6th judge to judge only those 5 entries and that will decide the winner.

Trust me, i've been doing these things for years now, this is easier and more fair than the way we have it now. And we don't have to do it starting this month, we can start it for next month if that'd be easier.

awpmusic
06-02-2005, 02:31 AM
I think it's sad that we have to have a topic for discussion/complaints whatever. The competition is a great idea that may get people writing - and their is a superb prize to make it worth while. Some people will just find something to gripe about no matter what. Nothing in this world is perfect - just get on with it.

Well that probably lost me a few votes! :(

Brian Wardell
06-02-2005, 02:33 AM
Perhaps if the rules stay the same as they are now it would serve to have a thread for entry discussions? This way someone who wasn't going to take a look at everything could at least be guided towards something they might not have listened to otherwise, by those who have listened to them all and commented on the quality of the entry. This would be for positives, I would think, rather than negatives about an entry, I would hope. Just a thought, it would probably be viewed as unfair as well, since then people would be thought to only listen to those songs listed in such a thread...

One thing I'd really like to see is no commentary at all in the entry and voting threads. That means, you just post the song, no real description (if you have it on a site instead of a direct link you can add a description there if you want anyway), and no posts that just comment on the quality of a song. This would make things clearer and easier to browse through for those attempting to make sense of the entry thread, and easier to make count in the Voting thread. In the voting thread, just the composer and the title, nothing else. Just makes it cleaner and easier to use. If you want to discuss I really think that's what another thread should be for. Maybe that's just me though.

awpmusic
06-02-2005, 02:44 AM
I agree - the voting thread is getting all clogged up - Doug's instructions were quite clear!

Evan
06-02-2005, 03:55 AM
I think it's sad that we have to have a topic for discussion/complaints whatever. The competition is a great idea that may get people writing - and their is a superb prize to make it worth while. Some people will just find something to gripe about no matter what. Nothing in this world is perfect - just get on with it.

Well that probably lost me a few votes! :(

Ah..the beauty of politics ;)

Brian Wardell
06-02-2005, 04:16 AM
While I continue to spitball ideas... ;)

Perhaps if they don't have the time to monitor these threads (I mean they do have to have the time to create the products we've all been drooling over, right?) they could appoint an admin who's only job is to keep those particular threads clean. Any other use of there admin powers, unless otherwise specified, would be an abuse of power and would result in expulsion from the position. I don't know how open they are to 3rd party admins, some places like them, other's don't, but I'd bet there would be more than a few folks willing to take the time do to the job. They're browsing here anyway. :D Of course if the powers that be are willing to take the time to do the monitoring and editing, then more power to them.

I just think people might be more inclined to listen to multiple entries if they were presented in a clear and uniform manner, rather than loads of description, various forms of links, etc. It just looks sloppy and even when you are browsing for something you know is there, things can get lost at times and you start glazing over things as people post opinions, help for others (it's a good thing, but maye a PM or something would be better overall?) and tons of other things.


On the subject of actually appointing judges, well I'm not sure about that. I'm open to the idea, I don't really care that much how the contest is done, as long as the rules are posted clearly ahead of time, and are adhered to for the duration of that months contest. I would think that if judges are appointed, from a list of volunteers, that it might go without saying that those judges should not be allowed to have a dog in the hunt, so to speak. If a judge were to win it would probably reflect poorly on the whole process (You know some people would complain. Whether it's here or on another forum somewhere). For this reason you would want a rotating cast of judges, so that everyone could have an opportunity to get in on the fun of the competition. This is speculative based on whether the rules change of course.

On the subject of the "skill" level of the judges, well who would decide that? Would someone be rejected because their skill level is percieved to not be up to snuff, if they volunteered? Would they be told as much, so that they wouldn't bother to volunteer until they had procured a certain level of ability in the appropriate forms of music? What would the appropriate abilities be? Personally I can listen to a song that is full of all the right elements, according to the rules, and have it put me to sleep, and something that isn't quite as popular might intriuge me, and get me to listen to the instruments that are used and their quality a lot more than something that just kind of drones on, but has all the right chords and progressions, etc.

I'm also wondering about the number of entries. This being the first time around we see a lot of entries, some not truly "finished", some people throwing out multiple entries, etc. That's a lot of material in the mix, but will it stay that way? To a certain degree it probably will, but I think that after a time (possibly even the first time) things could settle down and fewer entries will be put forth, but the quality should be higher and people start to see where the bar is set, and what type of things are winners month after month. Of course things will start to become sort of bland if the same type of piece is picked every month too, but that's up to whoever is judging, whether it's a few select people or the general populace.

Personally I'm just going to try not to be too upset about any of this either way. I mean, winning is always nice, and getting free sample packages is more than nice, but in the end, life will go on without either, and if I really needed them I could probably find a way to get them other than winning them. I might have to sell my precious bodily fluids for a year or more, but in the end I could probably find a way. I can think of all sorts of marvelous things I could do if I had every package that's available, but in the end I'd much rather spend my time making music with what I've got than getting angry about something I don't. Just having the opportunity to win one of these packages is more than I had a month ago, so that makes me happy. It is always nice to have structure to things as well, though (contests of skill that end up being more about popularity tend to irritate me a little, I'll admit that.)
Or, maybe I just need to learn to sleep at night... ;)

I'm just happy to have the opportunity to compete, learn, and improve, and perhaps one day win.
So, as awpmusic said "Nothing in this world is perfect - just get on with it."

Oneilio
06-02-2005, 06:49 AM
I don't understand you guys. We're not complaining, we're trying to make things better for everyone. Now if you want to do the contest the original way, then fine, people can just win by having their friends sign up and vote for them. And no, your entries will not be listened to by the majority. But if this is what you guys want then by all means I am for it.

All it takes is a little more structure and we can have it organized and fair. It's not going to be anymore difficult then it is now. So all of you people stop telling me we're complaining because that isn't a valid argument in this thread, just say if you want to keep it the way it is now, or if you would rather see it change.


So enough of the useless posts saying "you guys should stop complaining"
If you feel i'm complaining, i don't care. that's not the point.

Stefan Podell
06-02-2005, 07:13 AM
Onelio,

I sent you a PM.

- Stefan

Brian Wardell
06-02-2005, 07:18 AM
I would like to apologize for offending you, and I shall endeavor to not do so again in the future. From this point forward I will make an effort to refer to "complaining" as "expressing concerns". I would say, however that comparing this situation to the struggle for civil rights, and the use of certain words pertaining to sexual orientation which were not previously lobbied towards any individual is a bit of hyperbole, in my opinion, and somewhat inappropriate given the setting.

My issue with the concerns being expressed is mostly that the contest rules have been posted for a while, and I don't think coming in at the time of voting and expressing the concerns in the middle of a thread that is expressly stated to be for composer and song title of votes only, is appropriate. I thought it best to start another thread, like I did here, so that we can discuss things without breaking up the other thread.

I wouldn't mind an overhaul of the system, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape if they want to do it this way. I am expressing views here as well, and I'm open to allowing those in charge of the process to review my thoughts, and evaluate whether or not they feel they are valid changes to make to the competition. I don't have to enter if I don't like it. Anything is more than I had to begin with so... One would hope that the powers that be will read the concerns and address them to the satisfaction of those who would be a portion of their customer base.

As far as everyone getting their friends to hop on over here and vote for them, I was hoping that the reference to "any sign of foul play" was aimed partially at that practice, but who knows. Believe me, the thought has probably crossed everyone's mind to do just that. I opted not to recruit voters, as I'm sure most others did. I would hope that if they saw a bunch of guys with limited posts voting for one song in particular they might take notice and check when those people voting registered (although it might be a little more difficult given the young age of these particular forums.) If this turns out to be an acceptible practice then perhaps I shall change my mind and do what it takes to get enough votes to win. I'll have to address that at such time as the policy is addressed publicly by those in charge (if it hasn't been already, I didn't look to hard at the depth of the initial contest thread).

To address your issues:

1 - I wouldn't mind if it changed, although if "fair" is the goal I'm not sure that it can be achieved to everyone's liking. There can always be some allegation of favortism or bias lobbied at a body of judges, even if they are temporary. For instance (and I'm just making up names here. I'm not directing at anyone) Someone might say it wasn't fair because the month JohnnyA won he had a bunch of guys who were his friends on the judging panel, and BillyZ has only ever had one person who thinks favorably of him on the panel at any given time. Thus it is unfair to BillyZ, or at least it may be thought of unfair from his perspective.

2 - I'm not sure that doing it right in the middle of the voting process is the proper way to do this. I think the time to do it was before, and now that we are here, it's probably best to go through with it as designed and then fix it after any flaws are seen by the group and those in charge.

neoTypic
06-02-2005, 07:27 AM
It's like saying that the Blacks should've been happy when they were given their freedom. They were free in a political sense but they still weren't happy. Would it be fair to tell the blacks that they should stop complaining because they were given their freedom? I think not.

So enough of the useless posts saying "you faggots should stop complaining"
If you feel i'm complaining, i don't care. that's not the point.

1: That's a big ol' false analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy). You're not going to win any points arguing fallaciously. We understand you don't think the current setup is "fair". Making suggestions to make things better I'm sure is welcome. How about being nice and grateful we have the opportunity in the first place while you're at it?

2: There are a lot of faggots in the music industry, myself included. We don't appreciate the terminology thrown about in a juvenile fashion. Thanks. ;)

Oneilio
06-02-2005, 07:36 AM
look i'm sorry, it's just that you guys aren't seeing my point cause all you can focus on is the fact that i'm complaining.
Here's a better analogy.
Bellsouth offers DSL to me. For awhile, my connection was randomly dropping out. I could have just been happy that they offered DSL in my area, but no. I complained to them, and now my connection is much more reliable.

awpmusic
06-02-2005, 07:58 AM
I know what complaining is - believe me. But this is not the time. Let's see how it works first.
Your latest analogy is not really relevant I don't think.

Good luck in the contest.

neoTypic
06-02-2005, 08:30 AM
One man's crisis is anotherís drama awpmusic.

He has a point, I agree it's the wrong time to bring it up however, and yes there are more tactful ways of approaching it.

Apology accepted Oneilio. Thankya. :p

A better approach would be to make clear suggestions on how to improve things after the first round has passed. The way it is now might not necessarily be a bad way of doing it. Could the posts be a bit more organized? Sure, but we have several hundred users, about 80 entries, and only a few moderators. Don't call fire till yah see smoke, yeah? ;)

Bellsouth charges you a fee for their services so the comparison is still not the best. There is no fee involved in this competition. It is a kind gesture combined with an easy way to get good demos to showcase their sample libraries.

Honestly, we don't really need an analogy. We are perfectly capable of understanding that you don't think it's set up the best it could be at the moment. Wait till this round is over, see how it all works out, then make some suggestions. Yes? :D

Joseph Burrell
06-02-2005, 09:03 AM
Geeze, you'd think they were giving away millions of dollars to the winner of the contest or something. Why does everyone take this stuff so seriously. I have nothing but congratulations to the winner, here's your pat on the back, and to everyone else better luck next time. I don't think that if you scoured the earth for 10 million years and found some guy that was socially isolated, he still wouldn't be 'unbiased.' Everyone has things they're fond of more than others. Like style, technique, yada yada. So I say, lighten up, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't work out the way you see fit.

I understand everyone's concerns about people coming in from nowhere voting for this or that guy. I know Doug is smart enough to handle those things as they arise. But, I'm sure Doug is over there, 'Geeze, try to do something nice, and look at all the moaning.' That's forum life, though. Remember, they don't HAVE to do it at all. And constant moaning has to be tiresome. You can't please anyone any of the time, or something like that anyway.

drew
06-02-2005, 11:09 PM
Ok, I'll say it, and I'm sure there are a lot you thinking the same thing. Why are we letting some 17 year old who rips off other peoples material, tell us how the demo contest should be judged?? Let's get some B*lls here - if you don't like it, don't enter. It's like TV or radio - no one forces you to watch or listen, so if you don't like the rules, don't enter. It's not your contest, it's not your call. Shut up, write music(your own, hopefully) and be happy. Hey, that felt good!

Mills2k
06-03-2005, 12:38 AM
I really don't want to get involved in this, but I feel like I need to jump and be the mediator here before all hell breaks loose. Please leave the ad hominem flames out of the discussion-- it's really just rude and unpleasant. It's puerile and completely useless. In fact, all it will do is stir up more conflict where it's certainly not needed.

With that said, I will let the discussion continue its course, while throwing in a few words myself.

I do think the contest as it is setup has the potential for "foul play," and in general, there is a bent in the judging towards certain styles of music because that is in the majority. That is, however, an unsolvable problem. You're never going to remove bias from the process. Personally, I think the best way to vote would be a vote blind process, where everyone can vote, but they can't see what other people have voted for, or the current standings. I don't think vBulletin, however, has that functionality built in.

The idea of multiple rounds seems like a very good one to me as well...

There's other methods of voting other than choose one which would work better for such a large pool, I think. You could rank your top 5 choices, and assign them points based upon that ranking... 5 points for first, 4 for second, etc. This way, people would not have to narrow down their choices so arbitrarily, because there's obviously a lot of great music in the pool, and choosing just one is difficult, to say the least.

Another method, though not intuitively obvious, is vote for as many as you want. This means, just give a vote to whatever you think deserves a vote. This way, people can vote for all the ones they like. With a large member and selection pool, this method works surprisingly well.

Anyways, just my two cents on the matter. I agree, however, that now is not the time to start beating your drums (unless you're sequencing).

The contest entries sound great... not as varied as I'd hoped, but still exceptional quality.

Brian Wardell
06-03-2005, 01:00 AM
Personally, I think the best way to vote would be a vote blind process, where everyone can vote, but they can't see what other people have voted for, or the current standings. I don't think vBulletin, however, has that functionality built in.

This could be done. The admins would just create an account "ContestVote" or whatever name you want. Then each they sticky a locked thread with instructions to PM that account with your vote. That way nobody but those counting know who's voting for what, and you can kick out any extras, plus it doesn't clog up the individual admins/mods pm accounts because it's an account set up for just this one purpose. To make it even easier they could require that you put the name of the artist, and title of the song right in the title of the PM, so they don't even have to open it, they can just scan down the list. :D

Here's the question I would have concerning this method though. Currently it doesn't look as though most folks are voting for themselves. Now, I always suppose it's possible that they are just waiting to do so, or have done so with a different account, but if the others don't know who they are voting for is it more likely that everyone will just vote for themselves? There is always an aversion to voting for yourself publicly, it's usually thought of as unseemly. I personally don't care if someone does though, if you think yours is the best, or at least amongst the better ones.

I like some of your other ideas as well. The rating system (1-5) has always intrigued me, but I think it would be more work than those in charge would probably want to deal with, you know? Never know though. I'm not sure about the vote for as many as you want though. I mean, that could potentially just get really messy and be a lot of work to keep track of. Anyway, good suggestions.

Evan
06-03-2005, 04:11 AM
Ok, I'll say it, and I'm sure there are a lot you thinking the same thing. Why are we letting some 17 year old who rips off other peoples material, tell us how the demo contest should be judged?? Let's get some B*lls here - if you don't like it, don't enter. It's like TV or radio - no one forces you to watch or listen, so if you don't like the rules, don't enter. It's not your contest, it's not your call. Shut up, write music(your own, hopefully) and be happy. Hey, that felt good!

Amen brother...amen

lil-man
06-03-2005, 06:46 AM
I drop my two cents in:
I think that that members should get two, three (at the most) votes for the contest. That would let the member vote for themselves, should they desire...but also have another vote for another entry. There are too many demos that I liked, and one vote wasn't enough.

My personal opinion is that this contest is taken too seriously by various members. This contest is not going to make or break my career...I'm doing this for fun. I look at it as an excuse to buckle down and compose something as stupid as my "The Big Night" composition. Doug doesn't HAVE to hold this contest, and all the bickering and complaining is REALLY getting old, and is starting to take the fun out of hanging out (lurking as well) in this forum.

Good luck in the contest! :D

Pi_314
06-03-2005, 07:07 AM
Heres a link for the administration to look into for some software that can assist in the voting process. It's an Absynth 3 submissions list of presets. An Absynth user can submit his or her original presets. It gets listed and other users can download the submissions, and vote on a scale from one to ten. This software can be used for extracting the top 3, or 5, or ten submissions, by which a final vote can take place.

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?id=absynthuserlib_us&type=0&ulbr=1&plview=list&sort=dt_create+desc&limit=&categ=Pads&filt=96

One reason for the second vote is to help remove the possibilty of extracurricular activity. A submission that sounds like garbage will be seen for what it is (Cheater on the loose), and would get a dreaded vote of a 1, thereby eliminating (terminating) the offence. The only way evil can win here is by brute force, whereby the administration (God) will sit in judgement.

This program eliminates the heavy work for the administration, while giving ease of use to those involved in the contest.

You truely need to make some grand music to win.

On a side note - If the administration doesn't have any qualified people for setting this up. I can hook you up to an old vet regarding this issue. He could make your site sing, and he could probably be bought off with some software. ;)

Oneilio
06-03-2005, 09:50 AM
I think a blind vote is also a good idea, but with this method, people can still just get their friends to vote for them.

Liam
06-03-2005, 08:42 PM
I have to say, it is unfortunate that it seems like some people may be registering new names and voting for themselves. I'd love to think that isn't happening but......

And this could have been so fun!! It's amazing what a little competition can do to people! :rolleyes:
(please don't be upset with me for saying that...just tellin it as I see it!)

Brian Wardell
06-03-2005, 09:37 PM
Well, i choose to believe that Doug and the guys aren't stupid. Even if a guy gets away with doing that kind of thing once, I would like to believe that they would find a way to solve the problem and perhaps prevent it from happening again. Personally I'm not that greedy, my only hope is that the competition goes on long enough (and it could take a while, heh.), so that I have at least a little hope of maybe winning something. ;) It's a wonderful opportunity for us to have this competition, I just hope it's not spoiled by a few. We'll see. Perhaps there will not be any distasteful behaviour, when all is said and done.

lgrohn
06-03-2005, 10:10 PM
I posted my two pieces on 30th May. On June there have been 13 and 8 downloads according my domain statistics. Can't say if this is fair or not...

Mills2k
06-03-2005, 10:43 PM
Technically speaking, there's a more egregious situation that can occur than just registering lots of new voters to vote for your piece. What would be worse is registering lots of new voters to vote for someone ELSE's piece, thereby attempting to get caught and knock them out of the competition, as well as perhaps getting them banned from future ones. This most of all, I hope does not happen to anyone.

Liam
06-05-2005, 01:22 AM
I think these new rules that Doug posted for the June contest will make it much easier to manage.

New rules -

(1) If you entered a demo in a previous month, you cannot enter it again. (we are doing this to encourage new compositions each month and keep the contest interesting).

(2) In order to vote, you must have been a forum member for two months (we are doing this to discourage an influx of new members voting in the contest).

(3) We reserve the right to disqualify any entry if there is evidence of voting irregularities.

(4) One vote per forum member.

Brian Wardell
06-05-2005, 02:11 AM
Yeah, that's cool. The one thing I think that would help those trying to participate the most, though?

5) Absolutly no posting of anything other than song title, links to song location, and artist name in either the submission or the voting threads. ;) (I might even add that failure to adhere to this rule will disqualify the entry of whoever is the offending poster! :D)

Now that one I could get a long with. It's tough going through trying to find a song you're thinking of voting for when you're having to filter through all of the song history and various conversations. No "Great song there bud" or anything, imo, since we can do that in other threads. Makes it simpler to go through. Maybe that's just me, though.

So many things to do before I take a stab at next months contest though. Gotta get busy I guess.

Pi_314
06-05-2005, 06:24 AM
(2) In order to vote, you must have been a forum member for two months (we are doing this to discourage an influx of new members voting in the contest).
This is just a bandaid as this month rolls past, July will see the floodgates reopen. :D

(1) If you entered a demo in a previous month, you cannot enter it again. (we are doing this to encourage new compositions each month and keep the contest interesting).
The devil is in the details. Surely this does not stop the composer from reworking their original submission.

(4) One vote per forum member. Since I already have a full time job. I don't see myself listening to all entries. My vote will not be an educated one and thusly can be manipulated. (and has) by the power of suggestion. Not that this is terrible, just that it is.

(3) We reserve the right to disqualify any entry if there is evidence of voting irregularities.Yet another gray area, wherein they must explain themselves should it come to pass.



Some rookie mistakes and that is expected, but at some point the rookie must hit for an average above the mindosa line, or be sent back to the minors, which goes to demonstrate that the voting should be based on average, wherein one can stay in the show with the ticket to the world series. Wheres the sense of drama? :D

ChrisE
06-05-2005, 07:58 AM
All this bickering is a real shame. I would not be surprised to see Nick or Doug pull the plug on this competition, and that isn't what i want at all. The demo contest was supposed to be a chance to showcase what the EWQL products could do, and encourage the users of those products to create music. Where in fact, we have a whole community of people arguing over what rules there should be, and what an unfair system it is.

I don't believe anyone on these forums would go out of their way to create multiple accounts so they can vote for themselves. Maybe I'm too trusting, or dare i say it, a fool, but i don't think the people on these forums stoop to that level.

Good luck to all the entries for last month, and i'm looking forward to the next :D

Chris E

awpmusic
06-05-2005, 08:06 AM
I too had high hopes for this contest and intend to enter as often as I can. But the response from some people has been very dissapointing. The constant bickering and inability to even understand the rules or the simple request to put only the composer name and title in the voting thread just makes the whole thing disagreeable. I hope the contest continues but if I was the one running it - I think I would have had enough of this stupid hassle by now. What a shame.

Bernard Asselin
06-05-2005, 08:27 AM
All this bickering is a real shame. I would not be surprised to see Nick or Doug pull the plug on this competition, and that isn't what i want at all. The demo contest was supposed to be a chance to showcase what the EWQL products could do, and encourage the users of those products to create music. Where in fact, we have a whole community of people arguing over what rules there should be, and what an unfair system it is.

I don't believe anyone on these forums would go out of their way to create multiple accounts so they can vote for themselves. Maybe I'm too trusting, or dare i say it, a fool, but i don't think the people on these forums stoop to that level.

Good luck to all the entries for last month, and i'm looking forward to the next :D

Chris E

I second Chris !

ToddK
06-05-2005, 08:41 AM
You hit it on the head Chris!!

Im extremely dissapointed in this paranoid behaviour.

Its the last thing i expected to see. This was supposed to be
a fun, light hearted contest.

It took all of One Day before people started in complaining about
rules, judges, then soon to follow, people blaming each other for
cheating, before its even done!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:

R U kidding me???? My god people...

I wish i could withdraw my pieces at this point. Im embarrased
to be a part of it. :(


TK

lil-man
06-07-2005, 06:54 AM
R U kidding me???? My god people...

Perfectly said.

I, too, submitted for a little friendly competition and fun. No fun here. :(
I feel bad for all the newbies who view this site for the first time. It would turn me off in a second.

Oneilio
06-08-2005, 10:27 AM
I think you guys are wrong. For a contest of this magnitude (and it is a big contest because you win $1000 towards an ewql product), the rules should be fair and everybody should have a fair shot at winning. When you have cheaters and no way to enforce everybody to listen to all of the entries it gets a bit lop-sisded. Even some of the people who voted for rJames "Fairies" said that they only voted for him because the other votes slanted them towards him. Now i'm fine with having a contest setup like this; it's better than no contest at all. But i think it should be fair, don't you?

Oneilio
06-08-2005, 07:40 PM
maybe you need some macaroni and cheese :)

drew
06-08-2005, 08:31 PM
I think it is time to calm down, refrain from personal attacks and use the forums as intended; to share our ideas and music in a positive and productive manner. It's great to disagree, but let's try to be cordial and respectful. I've left other forums because things degraded so badly, an I'm getting close to that here. Imagine what new members must be thinking and how it reflects on our sponsor when they read some of these posts.

tchoyy
06-09-2005, 06:02 AM
Hello,

I've already posted my demo for the contest of June.
I saw that in the one for april/May, people posted more than one demo. Can we post others demos for this contest ?
I though we had to post only one demo....
Thanks for your answer.

Brian Wardell
06-09-2005, 06:41 AM
I believe that, at least as it stands now, you can enter as many pieces as you like, but you only get one vote in the competition.

Things to consider.

1) If you enter a piece in this month and you don't win, you cannot enter that same piece again in next months contest.

2) By entering several, you could potentially be diminishing the number of votes you get.

3) By entering several, you could potentially be expanding the number of votes you get. ;)

Here's the thing with 2 and 3, if you have a couple of great pieces, people may hop between voting for either of the 2, whereas if you hadn't entered one you may have gathered more votes for the one. Now if you entered one and it just wasn't rubbing people the right way, and you had another entry was, then you would benefit from entering two or possibly more. So, I guess it comes down to how much you believe in the song you initially posted, and whether or not it will detract from a vote you may have gotten for the additional song or songs you may post. If you believe in the first, it's probably best to hold the next one until the month after, assuming you believe in that one too (and why submit an additional piece you don't have absolute confidence in?). At least that would be my strategy. :p

tchoyy
06-09-2005, 09:03 AM
The fact is that, I do really like the music I posted, I think it has an attractive melody, the arrangement sounds great to me, but.... I'm not a big boss at least, and when I hear Rob's one, which is very impressive, I think that my chances are reduced....

On the other side, I'm an amateur, and I have started composing with Symphonic orchestra silver for 5 months ;)
Actually I'm a guitarist.

But as I said, I've nothing to loose :D

PS : Sorry if I do mistakes in my english, I'm french and I'm not used to speak english every days :D

Thanks

Brian Wardell
06-09-2005, 10:07 AM
I certainly hope nobody is posting music that they don't like. ;)

I think this months contest is going to be even rougher than before. There are already a few pieces that I think are just going to be tough to beat.

As far as you're english goess... it's pretty darn good for someone who doesn't speak it every day. I just wish I spoke another language as well as you do. My German has almost disappeared and I'm just starting to get going in Mandarin, and then there's the smattering of French and Spanish... It's just a big jumble of words in my head that wouldn't make much sense to anyone , lol. :D

lovelysilence
06-10-2005, 01:05 AM
Of course, everyone can enter. But if you know for sure your piece can't compete, i see no reason to enter. The less entries, the easier it also is for people to vote.

fitchmicah
06-18-2005, 09:56 PM
Of course, everyone can enter. But if you know for sure your piece can't compete, i see no reason to enter. The less entries, the easier it also is for people to vote.

I'm new here, and I see that the contest seems somewhat chaotic. I think that the solution is to model futureproducers.com's beat battles forum (http://www.futureproducers.com/forums/forumdisplay/forumid/58). Over at future producers, they use individual one on one competitions. For large groups of competitors, they have tournaments. It may be a little bit more work, but at least it is more fair and it makes sure that people listen to every song before they vote. The beat battles forum at FP is a model for any online music competitions, and it has been very successful.

To overview, the tournaments work as follows:


The tournament is announced and a signup thread is created. A separate "discussion" thread is also created so that official threads are not cluttered. If you want to participate in the tournament, you must sign up in the signup thread; songs are not posted yet.
After the signup thread is locked (there is usually a deadline for signing up), the tournament facilitator creates first round threads, 1 on 1. There is a deadline for people to post their songs in their first competition thread.
After both competitors in a thread post, voting starts. Voting rules are standard (you can only vote once, can't vote for yourself, etc.) and are enforced by checking IP addresses. The rule about only being able to vote if you are in the competition or have been on the forum for longer than two months is a good one. Perhaps it should be a rule that you can't log in from a proxy server or something...
After a set amount of time, the first round is called and the votes are tallied. The winners of the first round are faced off in the second round, etc. until a winner is found!


I think this would definitely decrease the amount of chaos that exists in the monthly competitions and make things more fair, especially when the stakes are so high! Perhaps a new forum section could be created specifically for monthly demo competitions! Hope this advice is helpful!

Micah Fitch

Doug Rogers
06-19-2005, 10:51 AM
We've removed several posts from Todd and PI_314 that violate forum rules. Please respect each other, even if you disagree; and no profanity, that offends many forum members.

- Doug

josejherring
06-19-2005, 03:18 PM
The rules are good as they stand.

It's up to the people that enter to regulate themselves. Let's face it. This is no small competition. The products are so good. People stand a chance of making a lot of money and impressing a lot of clients with these products. But, we should still be able to, amongst ourselves, make this a fair and amicable--friendly-- competition.

It's up to those who enter. Without excuses we should take the time to listen to every piece from begining to end. If the piece is longish like more than 10 min or so, then of course listen to enough to get the majority of the piece in your ear. If possible listen to the piece several times. Then vote your conscience.

It's not up to the moderators to come up with iron clad rules that can't be cracked. That's impossible. It's up to us to be ethical enough to be worthy of fair competition and to really listen and vote based on the merits of each piece.

Jose

fitchmicah
06-19-2005, 06:50 PM
The rules are good as they stand.

It's up to the people that enter to regulate themselves. Let's face it. This is no small competition. The products are so good. People stand a chance of making a lot of money and impressing a lot of clients with these products. But, we should still be able to, amongst ourselves, make this a fair and amicable--friendly-- competition.

It's up to those who enter. Without excuses we should take the time to listen to every piece from begining to end. If the piece is longish like more than 10 min or so, then of course listen to enough to get the majority of the piece in your ear. If possible listen to the piece several times. Then vote your conscience.

It's not up to the moderators to come up with iron clad rules that can't be cracked. That's impossible. It's up to us to be ethical enough to be worthy of fair competition and to really listen and vote based on the merits of each piece.

Jose

I still think I tournament style contest is much more fair and exciting as well. One on one competition makes people feel like their part of the contest is important. Furthermore, it is often much easier to pick one song over the other rather that pick one song from a large group, where you might have many favorites. Process of elimination seems most fair and appropriate IMHO.

Xtatic
06-19-2005, 07:37 PM
I'm not sure if someone has written this caus I havent read it all here.. But here goes;
I download the music and listens and compares it to my own stuff in the contest section, and then I listen alot to the different pieces alon the way. By now I probably now the mall in my head ;) Hopefully, I'm not the only one who does this.

If I mayt add, I suck compared to most of you chaps

rJames
06-19-2005, 07:48 PM
I am just back from vacation and was reminded how spiteful my post, that should have been a thank you, sounded. thanks. I'm going to enjoy Rare Instruments. I've heard a lot of good demos using it. I was venting after the contest because I felt if I said anything during the last 2 days it would have been even stupider (if that's possible). I realized that I forgot to say thanks but Doug had already closed the thread.

The first contest was a practice run for Soundsonline. For me, sort of an empty victory...

There are a lot of talented professionals and amateurs here. I'm sure there will be a natural separation of the wheat from the chaff and the contests will get progressivly better and more fair.

ChrisE
06-20-2005, 09:16 AM
I am just back from vacation and was reminded how spiteful my post, that should have been a thank you, sounded. thanks. I'm going to enjoy Rare Instruments. I've heard a lot of good demos using it. I was venting after the contest because I felt if I said anything during the last 2 days it would have been even stupider (if that's possible). I realized that I forgot to say thanks but Doug had already closed the thread.

The first contest was a practice run for Soundsonline. For me, sort of an empty victory...

There are a lot of talented professionals and amateurs here. I'm sure there will be a natural separation of the wheat from the chaff and the contests will get progressivly better and more fair.

Thankyou rJames :) I think its best just to put the last contest behind us, and look forward to next. A contest like this was bound to have teething problems. I'm glad you will enjoy RA, and i look forward to hearing your future demos with it.

fitchmicah
06-20-2005, 09:51 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on the tournament idea? It seems like people are a little apprehensive to change anything, but I think this would be for the better...

tchoyy
07-01-2005, 02:28 AM
Shouldn't the contest vote for june be opened now ?

tchoyy
07-01-2005, 03:05 AM
Ah, maybe you're sleeping in USA :D
It's 11 o'clock AM in France, so It may be 5 AM in America. :D

Brian Wardell
07-01-2005, 03:13 AM
Well, currently it's 2:10 a.m. here on the west coast of the United States. I'm guessin' we won't see the voting thread until sometime after 9 in the morning (I think that's about the time the last one showed up, but I could be wrong).

tchoyy
07-01-2005, 03:20 AM
Well, currently it's 2:10 a.m. here on the west coast of the United States. I'm guessin' we won't see the voting thread until sometime after 9 in the morning (I think that's about the time the last one showed up, but I could be wrong).

Sorry for having awaken you while shouting from france :D

Brian Wardell
07-01-2005, 03:44 AM
I was awake anyway. I just haven't ever gotten hang of that sleeping thing. ;) I've got a ways to go before I can vote though, I have to sit down and listen to all the entries, and you never know. There may be a few last minute entries (I know I threw mine in there last night, for one) that snuck in under the radar of folks who were listening ahead of time (for shame. What's with the planning ahead? ;)). Anyhow, I can't wait to see who wins this time. The few that I listened to when the thread started at the beginning of the month were making it sound like last months competition was just an appetizer for things to come. Good luck to all! :D

tchoyy
07-04-2005, 02:39 AM
Contest vote for june still not opened ?

lovelysilence
07-04-2005, 02:46 AM
It's the 4th of July, tchoyy, so America won't be doing much today, i guess.

Brian Wardell
07-04-2005, 01:09 PM
Yeah, I'm guessin' they were out of town for the weekend and couldn't get it started up on the 1st.

ToddK
07-04-2005, 02:21 PM
I remember them allowing a week for people to listen to
all the entries.
I think a week isnt much time, but the contests go by fast.

There are alot of entries, and most people dont have time to listen to
all of them in a day or two.

I personally, have heard all of them, but thats because i have no life.

Normal people need more time. :D

TK

Evan
07-04-2005, 02:29 PM
yeah im ready to vote, it was definantly a hard time chosing this time. But im going to go with my usual favorite ;)

josejherring
07-04-2005, 03:40 PM
I've heard them all. Almost every note on ones that where 5 min or less. I think we owe it to the people that stick their necks out to listen to them all.

It's tough but I've got it narrowed down to three. I'm listening to make my final decision, but I'm ready to vote.

Which ever way it goes I'd just like to comment that there are some really very talented composers out there. I'm really excited to be doing music in this time. It shows that there's a lot of people that are really worthy of getting their music to the public.

Best of luck all! Let's put this one behind us and start working on July. A month to month competition. Boy I've got a lot of work to do.

It's great to write music as a standalone. I think I'll try that next time instead of submitting film cues.

Cheers,

Jose

Organix
07-04-2005, 04:55 PM
Hello,

I see two main problems on this contest thing.

First, there are too many entries each month and too less time for vote them all in a good order. The latest entries each month have theoretically less chances to catch votest, regardless of their quality. But "Quality" should be the most important and not how a track was published.
If I would really doing a good job on voting, I have first to wait the whole month for all entries. Then I have to listen to them all and at last I have to decide for one.

The second problems that I see are the possibilities for pushing entries, by getting votes from friends for example. Some of the new rules will limit this but it will be still possible.

My suggestion would be to limit the count of entries and the time for publishing them each month. For example, only 10 tracks that have to been uploaded in the first two weeks of a month. So all will become more clearly.

A further consideration would be to given the votes a weighting in dependence of a forum status. A vote from someone with a higher forum status, which we gain by being more active here, will count more than a vote from a forum newbie.

so far my 2 cents.

regards
Markus (Organix)

christianb
07-04-2005, 08:38 PM
Hello,


A further consideration would be to given the votes a weighting in dependence of a forum status. A vote from someone with a higher forum status, which we gain by being more active here, will count more than a vote from a forum newbie.


regards
Markus (Organix)

I can't say that I agree that forum activity... i.e. -post count, is necessarily a good measure of 'status'. Styxx at NS would be Lord High Emperor of the known universe and would be in charge of all our destinies. I have however always thought that maybe contestants might want to pick their best gem for the month and put all their faith into that one. Don't know about this month, but last month there were more than a handful of folks with 2+ cues... If we could get 34-35 cues down to 25-26 without multiple submissions, it might make the job a tad easier.


cb

josejherring
07-05-2005, 12:17 AM
I dunno.

I spent the time to listen to all the cues in the middle of the month. It took me an hour. I did it from 8am to 9am while eating breakfast. Then as new ones came I listen to those as well. I'd say that the total listening time was about 1 and 1/2 hours. I'm a busy guy with a family and two film projects at the moment and I found the extra 1.5 hours last month to listen to them all.

It's not a big commitment.

As far as voter irregularities there may be a few people that do that. But, my guess is that not to many of us really know eachother that well. Judging from last month the best pieces imo won. Now with the new rules I doubt there will be much drama this time around and really it's not like we're voting for the next president. People have little insentive to cheat.

Jose

ToddK
07-05-2005, 12:56 AM
I have to disagree.

To me, its like tasting food. You have to cleanse the pallote between
tastings, or it all gets sort of mushed together.

In a food tasting, you can do that with sherbert.

But for music, it takes time. I dont think its fair to the competitors
to just sit and listen to 40 clips within one hour, and cast a vote
based on that.

Thats why we're given 7 days. 4 or 5 clips a day is much more digestable.


T

josejherring
07-05-2005, 11:51 AM
I have to disagree.

To me, its like tasting food. You have to cleanse the pallote between
tastings, or it all gets sort of mushed together.

In a food tasting, you can do that with sherbert.

But for music, it takes time. I dont think its fair to the competitors
to just sit and listen to 40 clips within one hour, and cast a vote
based on that.

Thats why we're given 7 days. 4 or 5 clips a day is much more digestable.


T

I hear your point.

I do and listen to music all day. It's not a problem for me. I still remember all the pieces I listen to and can just play them back in my head again.

Like I said at the end of the day there were only 3 that I thought sounded professional. The rest I just discounted and then relisten to those 3. Got them in my ear and now I'm deciding which one.

Jose