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lil-man
06-08-2005, 09:14 AM
Would it be possible to keep the discussions of the contests in seperate threads, and leave only entries in the entry thread? I found it very daunting to have to wade through all the comments and such just to get to the music. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, but I think that it would be easier. Same thing for voting...no comments, just artist and title.

Just my two cents

drew
06-08-2005, 10:19 AM
Would it be possible to keep the discussions of the contests in seperate threads, and leave only entries in the entry thread? I found it very daunting to have to wade through all the comments and such just to get to the music. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, but I think that it would be easier. Same thing for voting...no comments, just artist and title.

Just my two cents

Hopefully, this is one issue we can all agree on - it would be the first!

EW should delete any 'comment' posts in the entry and vote threads. It just trashes them up and may influence voting. When someone posts a comment like 'Great job, awesome orchestration' that has got to influence the listener. It's just human nature.

Pi_314
06-08-2005, 05:25 PM
It also looks like Mr James friend made a big difference :D
So the question now becomes .... How many freinds does it take before you are cheating? It would seem one is OK, so is it two? three? four?

I really mean this sincerely. This is entertaining!!!

Can't wait for next months vote! and this one isn't even over!

Brian Wardell
06-08-2005, 06:41 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I can live with pretty much anything, but at least let us have a clean layout in the submission and voting threads. Ugh! I would say at most there should be:

Artist name
Song Title/link to song
link to thread discussing that song

Put these in a compact uniform manner. If someone wants to talk about a song they can link directly to the thread setup to discuss that song, one click and they don't even have to find their way. If they end up posting in the voting thread then there would be a real problem with either being lazy or trying to sway the voting, imo. ;)

As far as how many friends it takes before you're cheating? It doesn't take any. It doesn't matter if you have friends who happen to be members and vote for you. Now, if they are voting for you simply because they are your friend and not because you actually have the best piece for the competition, that may be unethical or whatever, but it's not outside the bounds of the rules as stated so it's not cheating, imo.

Pi_314
06-08-2005, 07:29 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I can live with pretty much anything, but at least let us have a clean layout in the submission and voting threads. Ugh! I would say at most there should be:

Artist name
Song Title/link to song
link to thread discussing that song

Put these in a compact uniform manner. If someone wants to talk about a song they can link directly to the thread setup to discuss that song, one click and they don't even have to find their way. If they end up posting in the voting thread then there would be a real problem with either being lazy or trying to sway the voting, imo. ;)

As far as how many friends it takes before you're cheating? It doesn't take any. It doesn't matter if you have friends who happen to be members and vote for you. Now, if they are voting for you simply because they are your friend and not because you actually have the best piece for the competition, that may be unethical or whatever, but it's not outside the bounds of the rules as stated so it's not cheating, imo. Emotions are running on high. Isn't it beautiful? Goes great with the music! ToddK lost it on the other thread, just as I was playing a tune called serenity :D

And yes ... East West needs some software to run the contest.

Brian Wardell
06-08-2005, 07:54 PM
I'm not sure I agree that they need some software, at least not yet. I think those involved are small enough in number, but if the forums got too big it might be something to look into for sure. I think that if they just have someone monitor the submission and voting threads to make sure that everything is in a predesigned format, as described above, so that people can quickly browse through everything (the composer name is probably a bit extraneous given that it's on the submitters post heading), it will be fine. Truthrully there is no perfect system and I'm fine with whatever they want to do. I'm just glad to have the opportunity to compete, and the opportunity to come here and listen to what everyone is doing, and maybe improve myself a little. In case anyone thinks any of my posts are a little heated, I will say that they were never intended to be. I certainly wasn't irate when I have posted anything I make an effort in all forums to not do so anymore, having seen far too many threads degrade to places nobody really wants to go. I'm not talking about here (although some seem like they are headed in that direction), but I've seen it in far too many places. Such is life on the internet I guess.

Kayamb
06-08-2005, 08:31 PM
Okay, we all agree here. The voting thread is the voting thread, nothing more. It was a pain for everyone, especially for those counting the votes to read through the last voting thread.

This contest is just starting to exist. It's absolutely normal if it's not perfect... Slowly it will improve and gain clarity.

This first contest was of course criticizable, but I think it was quite a success anyway. And it will get better and better that's for sure.

Discussion and raising ideas and criticisms is always good, but we're all responsible enough to keep it in a sensible way.

It's just a game after all.

Craig Sharmat
06-08-2005, 09:34 PM
This may seem too simple, but since it was a tie, why not give both prizes and move on.

Pi_314
06-08-2005, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure I agree that they need some software, at least not yet. Well one of the purposes of the software is for increased partipitation. Not necessarily for more entries, but for more voting. What it would entail is a rating system. You would go to a web page with a listing of entries. You could listen to any number of them with the choice of rating them. The software keeps track of what you voted on, and the rating you gave it. You can't rate a tune twice, the software prevents this. So as an example lets say 100 people show up at the web page on and off to vote during the course of a month, and lets say there is a total of ten entries. Now lets say that those 100 people each only rated five of the entries. Thats five hundred ratings for ten tunes. Averaged out thats 50 ratings per tune. The rating scale is one to ten. One tune might get a 6.22 rating while another might have a 4.78 rating, and yet another a 6.46.

It doesn't matter that voters listen to all the tunes. What matters is what they rate any particular tune. So if you show up at the web page with the entries, you might listen to one tune... rate it ... and leave. Maybe thats all you have time for. Maybe you show up two days later to find a new entry, you listen to it... rate it and leave. It doesn't get much simpler than this. There are no comments to read, just a list of entries, their current rating, number of times rated, perhaps date submitted, maybe an arrow that shows if a tune is moving up or down the charts.

The software accomplishes a couple important things. It makes it possible for everyone to participate to any extent they wish to participate at any time they wish participate, and East west doesn't need to babysit twentyfourseven.

Pi_314
06-08-2005, 10:21 PM
This may seem too simple, but since it was a tie, why not give both prizes and move on. Now thats some good PR!

Brian Wardell
06-08-2005, 11:42 PM
I guess I should say I'm not opposed to software additions either. I know that it was supposed to help the voting process and not the entry process, as well. I'm just not sure it's an absolute necessity yet, if they don't want to deal with setting it up.

As for being able to see it's current rating and whether it's moving up or down, how does that differ from someone posting "Astronomical work, you really did the best ever" if someone got a high rating (possibly with just one vote) or the exact opposite. Is there a way to hide the ratings until after the process is closed?

As always, I'm open to anything really. I just want to enjoy the music without all the drama queen stuff, congratulate the winner and move on to trying to make my stuff better (and hoping everyone else will do the same.)

Pi_314
06-09-2005, 06:29 AM
I guess I should say I'm not opposed to software additions either. I know that it was supposed to help the voting process and not the entry process, as well. I'm just not sure it's an absolute necessity yet, if they don't want to deal with setting it up.

As for being able to see it's current rating and whether it's moving up or down, how does that differ from someone posting "Astronomical work, you really did the best ever" if someone got a high rating (possibly with just one vote) or the exact opposite. Is there a way to hide the ratings until after the process is closed?

As always, I'm open to anything really. I just want to enjoy the music without all the drama queen stuff, congratulate the winner and move on to trying to make my stuff better (and hoping everyone else will do the same.)

I think this current contest is all the proof needed for software, it can't be biased unless it's programed that way. Case in point - Administration has said in not necessarily these words..... if there is evidence of underhandedness a participant can and will be disqualified. Here is an example of exactly what they wish to prevent - RJames who's choice of words can be catagorized as................................................ .Well you fill in the blank :D Manage to blurt this out - {I know that a friend of mine wanted to vote for this one but voted for Fairies after he saw the anti-rJames vote taking off. (Thanks Pi a true lover of the arts and fairplay). }

Well I just happen to be a lover of arts and fair play, and that statement is precisely what the administration is trying to avoid, and exactly what I and others have eluded to as to the problem with the current setup. Yet here we are while RJames skates. Is the administration biased because RJames is still in the race? Well in a way they are, in so much as they don't enforce their own rules.



and here I am listening to the choices that are suppose to be tied thinking that RJames has a better track, while I have to vote for the lesser piece for obvious reasons. I'll say this again - Any one of us can change their vote up to the point of the voting deadline. Lets call it the last chance to make it right. You must enforce fairplay where applicable. It's the pithiest thing you can do.

lil-man
06-09-2005, 07:31 AM
I certainly didn't mean for this to be an extended thread. I was only venting frustrations. However, since we are on the subject...

I think there should be ONLY 3 (three) things included in the submission thread: Artist-Title-Libraries used. That's it. I always like to know what is being used for the sounds. It helps to put things on the "wish list". What I liked was that a few members posted with that format...but also opened another thread for discussion on the piece. I, myself, DID listen to all the demos. What frustrated me was that I had to wade through all the "other stuff" to get to the music.

As far as cheating and accusations go...I would like to think that forum members would be able to govern THEMSELVES, and not rely on software to do it for them. If members can't govern themselves...then we have a deeper problem. If someone cheats, then THEY will have to live with it, not me. The accusor is subject to the same guidelines though...THEY will have to live with it, I won't. Seeing so many actions and reactions to this inaugural contest has made for some GREAT "lurking". I think there are many who are acting a little childish about the whole thing. If I were to act that way, I could be saying..."I didn't even get a vote...the whole contest is rigged". But I won't. It doesn't wear well with me, this site, or it's members. I would LOVE to win Colossus, but I will win on MY OWN MERITS thank you.

I don't agree with the "qualified judges" idea, and I am not sure that we need software for anything other than making music. As far as being qualified goes...I think I am more than qualified to judge what I like or don't like. I don't need a judge to tell me if my piece is "qualified" or not. I will be the first to tell you, when it comes to composing...I make a lot of "qualified" mistakes. And I don't need a judge to tell me that. I think that voting for the one that you LIKED is good enough for me. I DID listen to them all, and it was hard to pick out the one that I liked the most. I would like to think that everyone gave it their best shot at listening to ALL the entries, including mine. If they didn't, then see above paragraph about "living with it"...

I would like to thank Doug for allowing the opportunity to do this. For Doug to offer $1000 of PREMIUM product for winners in this forum shows his commitment to customers. He is doing a good job considering.

I would like to see one rule change about voting, though:
(2) In order to vote, you must have been a forum member for two months (we are doing this to discourage an influx of new members voting in the contest).

I think that this rule should be waived, providing a new member submits an entry.

Brian Wardell
06-09-2005, 09:14 AM
Ah, yes. I can agree that the libraries used would be a great thing to have listed with the piece. Personally that's one thing I listen to, since these are supposed to be used to promote the products, I listened for which ones I thought gave a good feel for what that library can do. It would be a great help to know what everyone was using, not only for that, but also, as you mentioned, for putting things on the wish list. I know that there were several things I was kind of iffy on but have heard things done with them and they sound pretty decent, so now I'm feeling like I might actually spring for them at some point. I'm sure that's what the guys who put this whole thing on are hoping for, too. ;)