Composing and Cubase.

[JSP]

hello..

I have a question to ask of large orchestral composing within Cubase. (I'm using Cubase SL)

One of my biggest problems, and frequent rants on the Cubase forum is the limited editing aspects of working with midi. In particular, not being able to add a single note in the middle of my composition!!!! ( ie: will not push the events forward)

I've given the comparison of working with a word processor without an insert function, and compared the idiocy of this to Cubase.



When working with 40 -50 tracks each containing volume changes, plus a tempo track with various dips and peaks throughout... How does a person simply insert a few notes, while pushing the entire arrangement forward ( and keeping in sync with the tempo/volume, sustain etc.. events).

It's an incredible pain!!

Just wondering what the work flow is like for Cubase users in larger Orchestral compositions..?



thanks for any tips



~Jeff

[nikolas]

If you select all midi tracks, and cut them at the exact place you want to insert the note, can't you just move the second halves however much you want? All events will move in sync, including the tempo map and automation I believe, (for the automation I'm usre), but if the tempo remains, it's just simple to use the tempo map and move all tempo events further as much as you did the midi tracks.

Doesn't this make sense? It's 2 minutes work...

Furthermore:

When you mean "insert" you mean that you have 8 bars and you want between the 5th and the 6th to enter a new bar, right? :-/ It's kinda forgetful... in the manner that it's never hapened to me really... anyhow... Hope the above is helpful...

[JSP]

Indeed, to add events within the middle of an arrangement.

The tempo track doesn't follow..

..I'm often guilty of using the tempo track as a major component to fine tuning timing as I go... so it's dense with tempo changes.

To cut/paste/glue tracks into smaller segments seems to be allot of work.... especially if I'm continually adding subtracting just a few notes... Perhaps when adding entire bars, but if you just want to add a few 8th ,16th notes.. how can the arrangement be cut so accurately?...

It would be preferable to be working within the key editor where the notes are editable.. not the tracks.



... just posting to see other's workflow.

thanks for the reply..

`jeff

[nikolas]

ok...

But do you often want to add a single 8th? I mean this would make a bar of 8/8 into 9/8...

It is kinda strange to do that in the middle of the project and not i nthe begining. Depends on how you work of course...

Usually when I want cadenzas, or tenutos notes, or very long breaths, I tweak the tempo map (you know from 120 to 5 for 1/8 or something...)

But I will persist (I think so at least). Selecting all (Ctrl+A), cutting all (Alt+x) is 5 secs work. Moving all is another ten or so. IF you want to move them 1/16 then quantitize and move them accordingly... Then to the tempo map do the same, select and move 1/16...

I would imagine that it's rather fast and works.

But again it depends on how often you do that. In my mind I would do that once or twice in a project which means that I could "waste" 10 minutes each time... If you do it more often, then indeed it's a bloody bad way of doing things...

[JSP]

Nikolas... thanks again for the tips..



Your method indeed sounds doable, in your case for someone that knows what they're doing in terms of musical notation/composition.. (and rarely edits their work!).. but for a novice like myself with sloppy work methods,.. ie: constantly adding deleting bits and chunks.... Then it's incredibly time consuming.


Many, years ago I began with a program called Notator,(Atari 1040 ste) quite crude by today's standards, but more functional in many ways. A simple insert button would allow to add a note/s within the middle of an arrangement, it would push all the events forward .. you could add delete as many as desired instantly.



I miss that feature!


But, it seems there's no easier method than what Cubase can offer.


I guess I'll just have to suffer! :(

[fongi]

I´ve never suffered with Cubase it´s easy.......I think ? well let me put it this way, it works great for me & Nikolas by the sound of things. Chris :D

[nikolas]

Wait...

I hope you don't mind me trying a bit further.

I may be wrong, but there seems that there is something yoy might not be doing right, either in the way you work (which I swear, am not trying to insult you or anything like that), or maybe in the way you do things in Cubase.

If you're a beginer in Cubase there could be things that you do not know... IF you do know them and you're not a novice, I appologise for this post.

I honestly, can't see the reason for wanting to insert a single note (or two). Of course this is the way you work, but I just can't figure it out easily musicaly. I mean if you have a melody, then why "extend" it slightly (by 1/8). If you have a chord, again why? Unless you're moving in rather contemporary ways in which case I would assume that time signatures of 9/8 or 5/8 and the such are not weird...

If it is for sync reasons, then the tempo map is enough. If you want to stretch evetrything by 2 secs, make a fermata somewhere. and if so add a note somewhere in the middle off quantitizing...

But anyways... Apart from that.

A little about Cubase:

You are aware that clicking while having the shift pressed will make you "select" and not actually click. I mean after selecting all and cutting all, there is no space anywhere to click and drag. But if you press shift and hold you can click and drag without space. Hoep it makes sense.

Then if you have the "snap" activated, all midi tracks will move from bar to bar or from beat to beat. OR according to quantitise. You can select that by clicking on the grid type (bar/beat/use quantitise). This way all moving around will be quantitised and you won't lose dat or sync.

The same goes for the tempo map.

Now what would be a problem would be if you didn't use quantitising in the first place... But this is a total nightmare... :S anyways...

OH! An idea!

What IF:

You inserted a whole bar and adjusted the tempo to such as the whole bar lasted 1/8 (or 1/16)? It involves a little math, but it could be easier... IF you're at 60, then every bar is 4 secs, and every 1/8 is 0.5 sec. If you move the tempo to 480 then a bar lasts 0.5 secs...

IF this is helpful... Dunno what else to think really...

but honestly if it's about sync issues with picture, then use the tempo map and add a note manually where you want it...

[Armadillo]

If you have the left and right locator set with eg. 1 bar's space you can right click and go to "insert" and then "insert silence" or something similar, and it will move the arrangement after that point 1 bar forward. 1 note however is rather difficult. 1 bar can also be a bit of a pain as it will cut up or extend your events.....worst of all, frozen parts are not moved along with the rest of the arrangement.

[JSP]

Thanks once again Nikolas,

You're a very patient teacher!

You made a comment " Now what would be a problem would be if you didn't use quantising in the first place... "



... sadly, that would be me.

This is at the heart of my dilemma...As I mentioned, when a person's work methods are accurate, I can see editing becoming very normal... perhaps mathematical. However, in my case, my arrangement nowhere near resembles a proper time signature. Typically, I'll keep the default tempo of 120, or 100 and simply play live, thus attempting to capture a more natural performance.

This too opens up an entirely new topic of discussion. Do you play live then quantise later?, or quantise first and follow along with your proper tempo?

But getting back to my initial topic, For me its rather frustrating, only because I was accustomed to a more powerful feature. As an example.. Imagine completing your final arrangement, and wanted to experiment by adding a quick passage at a certain point. With my old program, I would place the curser where I wanted to insert. Play the keyboard in live time ( done!) The new notes added would be inserted in the composition.. I could continually undo and play this passage 5 -10 times until it sounded natural... Now with Cubase.. imagine having this same scenario... It could easily take 10 -15 minutes, what use to take 4-5 second. This completely hinders spontaneity.


I've been using Cubase for many years and am aware of most of its editing capabilities..., but was hoping to find a better method I'd missed.



... But again , thanks for all the help.!


~Jeff

[nikolas]

Jeff,

I see what you mean... So probably it is quite more difficult to do this in Cubase. Perhaps Steiberg could inclide something like this at a next version (not that Steinberg ever listens to their customers... but anyways...)

Sorry I couldn't help any more...

Maybe there is something in cubase that I don't know... If someone else could join in???

[Nash]

After all, I think it is very useful to see the Cubase tutorial. However, great input guys. :)