John Barry's BLack Hole

[dcoscina]

iTunes is releasing this gem next week. It got me thinking about the score and why I still love it so much, Probably because '70s Barry scores had rich orchestrations, great themes and were just generally great musical pieces either in the films or outside of them. I also liked the fact that he used unison horns as a main melodic figure in his more epic scores. Dances with Wolves also has a lot of french horn work in it. Hmmm. must listen to that one again too!

What do you fellas think of this score? Does anyone remember it? What do people think of Barry in general?

[nickysnd]

What do you fellas think of this score? Does anyone remember it? What do people think of Barry in general?
Never saw this movie, planning to. :)

JB is no doubt one of the all time greatest, but there's something I have never clearly understood: is he the composer of the James Bond (JB ;) ) theme, or is it Monty Norman as shown on imdb?

[waldorf&stadler]

Never saw this movie, planning to. :)

JB is no doubt one of the all time greatest, but there's something I have never clearly understood: is he the composer of the James Bond (JB ;) ) theme, or is it Monty Norman as shown on imdb?

As far as I know, Norman wrote the theme and Barry orchestrated it.

[fongi]

I´m with you guys regarding John Barry the simplicity but effectiveness of his scores is without doubt his trade mark, and a writier of great horn parts as already stated ! Chris :)

[dcoscina]

As far as I know, Norman wrote the theme and Barry orchestrated it.

Barry actually wrote the theme. Legally Monty Norman is credited for it though. I don't remember why but Barry composed it.

[FilmComposerZ]

I absolutely love his Somewhere in Time Main Theme... the eighth world wonder :) That melody has got to be one of the best I have ever heard....

Pablo

[dcoscina]

I absolutely love his Somewhere in Time Main Theme... the eighth world wonder :) That melody has got to be one of the best I have ever heard....

Pablo

Yes it's a beautiful melody. I also love Barry's earlier work for its sense of harmony. Very Mahlerian in places. His KING KONG score is pretty great too. Lots of bi-tonal chords for Kong's theme. I prefer it to what James Newton Howard came up with for Jackson's Kong last year.

[nickysnd]

I absolutely love his Somewhere in Time Main Theme... the eighth world wonder :) That melody has got to be one of the best I have ever heard....
Are you talking about the often-recurring piano theme by Rachmaninoff? If so, that's a variation (18th) from Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.

(sometimes there's a kind of a blurry line, when it comes to who composed what... ;) )

[JMDNYC]

Regarding the old Barry / Monty Norman debate, if you doubt Barry wrote it then watch "Beat Girl" from two years before Dr. No with a very similar melody to the Bond Theme. Apparently Monty Norman was hired to score the film and Barry just did the one song, but when Barry saw the film they had put his song all over it. For contractual reason Norman had to get credit for it. As you might imagine with something so popular, there were legal ramifications and lawsuits. Here is the wikipedia summary:

Credit for this is given solely to composer Monty Norman (who had been contracted to compose the score for Dr. No). However Barry, while not publicly denying this, has at times implied otherwise. Matters came to a head over 30 years after the original composition, when Monty Norman sued The Sunday Times for a 1997 article which named Barry as the true author. For this lawsuit, Barry himself attended in 2001 and testified for the defence.
Barry told the court he had been given a music manuscript of a work by Norman (intended to become the theme) and that Barry was to make a musical arrangement. Barry told the court he composed additional material, and arranged the theme. The court was also told that Norman received sole credit due to his prior contractual agreement with the film producers. Monty Norman won the suit and was awarded damages.
On September 7, 2006, Barry publicly defended his authorship of the theme on the Steve Wright show on BBC Radio 2.

[nickysnd]

Barry told the court he had been given a music manuscript of a work by Norman (intended to become the theme) and that Barry was to make a musical arrangement. Barry told the court he composed additional material, and arranged the theme. The court was also told that Norman received sole credit due to his prior contractual agreement with the film producers. Monty Norman won the suit and was awarded damages.
Cased closed :p . I can read that this way: Smart lawyers can prove anything in front of ignorant judges (and/or juries).

I really can't see what enables a court to decide on such delicate matters as the blurry line between

a. putting together some notes in a row, and

b. arranging those notes into a maningful piece for orchestra that would fit well in a film.

I mean, to me, the latter seems a lot more like composing than the former.

This brings back the isuue of "machines-composers": if I take a string of notes randomly output-ed by a software, and I arrange that string of notes into a meaningful piece that would fit well in a film - then a court would rule that the software is the composer of the piece??

In short: What is music composition - outputing a string of notes, or creating a meaningful piece?

[TheVamp]

As I understand it, the only part of the James Bond theme that is truly Norman's is the Vic Flick-performed electric guitar riff. Norman claims that it was a re-use of the melody from the song "Good Sign Bad Sign" from A House for Mr Biswas, a musical he composed some years earlier. The two melodies are, in fact, almost indentical.

The rest of the theme, from the opening vamp to the horn section is all Barry.

So, then, how should something like that be credited? Composed by Monty Norman and John Barry? Composed by Monty Norman with an arrangement by John Barry?

What's clear is that the producers preferred Barry's sound to Norman's. Dr. No's score (apart from "The James Bond Theme") is all Norman and isn't particularly good. I think one producer even called Norman's music for the climax "mine disaster music." Not to mention the horrible mickey-mousing that Norman came up with for the Bond-killing-the-tarantula scene.

As for The Black Hole, while I would have preferred a CD release, I'm thrilled that it's being made available on iTunes. The Black Hole is the score that introduced me to Barry in the first place, so it has a special place in my heart!

[FilmComposerZ]

Are you talking about the often-recurring piano theme by Rachmaninoff? If so, that's a variation (18th) from Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.

(sometimes there's a kind of a blurry line, when it comes to who composed what... ;) )

No, not that theme...the other one...you'll have to listen to the soundtrack. It's composed by John Barry...:)

[V o n h ö g e n]

Not to mention the horrible mickey-mousing that Norman came up with for the Bond-killing-the-tarantula scene.


Hey, what's wrong with Mickeymousing?

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This picture was originally stolen from the Barry Family Archive, and was given to me by John's nephew after I had won the International Mickey Mouse Look-alike Contest 2001. The picture shows John Barry in 1975, shortly after he had won the International Mickey Mouse Look-alike Contest, as well as the James Bond Maintheme Remix Competition! :cool:

If this doesn't convince you, here's what John himself had to say about Mickeymousing, back in 1975:

Irwin Bazelon:
"Do you think there is too much Mickeymousing in films?"

John Barry:
"It depends on the character of the film. You know, I did the James Bond series - the whole style of the series is Mickeymouse music. It had to be. Subtlety is not a virtue in a film of that kind of design. But usually I try to keep well away from that kind of scoring. But it's not a golden rule that you have to. Every film has a life of its own, and you have to go with that."

(Source: Interview by I.Bazelon with John Barry, 1975.)


:rolleyes: Jerome

[hemloc]

Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread slightly disturbing???

:rolleyes:

[dcoscina]

Am I the only one who finds the title of this thread slightly disturbing???

:rolleyes:

yes, indeed you are the only one :p

[hemloc]

yes, indeed you are the only one

I dunno, it just sounds like a title of some really bad porno or somethin', lol:eek:!!!

[nickysnd]

I dunno, it just sounds like a title of some really bad porno or somethin', lol:eek:!!!
Hey, it was about JB's Black Hole, not about anybody's deep throat. Black holes, unlike (say) assholes, are extremely attractive...