Need help in learning to write irish/celtic music

[Sp3ctre18]

I'm taking a music class in college, and it's beginner course for the most part, super easy, I aced the first semestra with a grand total of maybe 2 hours of study, would be boring if we didn't have a crazy teacher. I decided to do an honors project to get honors credits, and we decided on writing a paper on celtic music or maybe just irish, not sure, but in general, what's called celtic music, AND, I'll compose and present a piece based on what I've learned, using what I've learned. I had already started a celtic fiddle tune a while back, so i've got some work done, and i can recognize the style, rythm, chords, etc., and I and a few other people feel my piece is definaly sounding like celtic music, but I still need to do research and learn more about the style itself, forms, and just how to write one.

I can easily find info on history, origins, and general descriptions on styles and forms of pieecs like jigs, reels, etc., but i'm having a hard time finding something more specific, something meant for someone who wants to write that kind of music. For example, in what 've written so far of the piece, I have a 6/8 rythm, instrumentation of strings, recorder / tin whistle, pipes, and drum (currently timpani, but i'll see if i can use something that souns more like the small drum typical of this music), strings especially have passages in the steady rythm of eigth notes, a focus/droning of the 1st and 5th notes of the tonic, (in this case, D and Asince i'm in D minor) or the base note / key note of the current chord, bouncy rythm/melody, the aforementioned steady eigth-note rythm serves as both melody an accopaniment, depening on whether or not there's a slower, freer melody being played or not, using natural minor (no raised 7th), cello & bass play 5ths (D & A) as accompaniment, brought in by grace notes/slide up, and much ornamentation everywhere, as grace notes, in particular, triplet grace notes as is especially characterestic of the pipes.

There's probably more i should know, more specifics; all that above, descirbing how its coming along, is from what i've gathered from my listening. I need to know what else there is to know about writing this music, about the style. The musical forms like jig, etc., would e good to learn about to, because part of why as jig is a jig is the style (fasy bouncy rythm), although I probably won't follow the form itself (al lthat AABB stuff); I'm going to keep it as a loose rondo form.

I did manage to find a listing of the modes used, so that's very helpful, but I also want to look for info on styles and forms. For example: diffence between a reel and jig, and differences between irish reel, scottish reel, etc., and forms like AABB or ABAC whatever. Those are just basic examples; reel and jig are easy to get info on, but there are other types.

I still need to find at least general info on on styles and stuff because I will be mentioning and listing the many types of celtic music out there. However, the most important reason why I'm looking for info like this, is because, like i said above, i had already written some music, and since I don't want to change it much, I'd like to see what style is it closest too. Currently, it's basically like a sort of rondo form, so it's ok if I can't find anything in that form; I think i'll ignore form in my composition, but at least I want to know the style. Irish? Scottish? Breton? and then what kind of music? reel? hornpipe? etc etc.

Here's a link to the piece; WARNING: since it's a WIP, it's a midi. :P

https://cms.psu.edu/AngelUploads/Files/rjf5061/Celtic_Tune_1.mp3

So anyway, yeah, if someone knows about this kind of music, or can direct me to links or some books or something I can look for, I'd really appreiate it. And of course, if anyone knows this stuff well can tell me what my piece sounds like, that'd be great, because then I'll know what exactly I should focus on. Also, the sooner the better. :P Thanks

[nickysnd]

I see what you are trying to accomplish. Please take what follows as a friendly attempt to help.

It seems to me that your "academic" approach is a bit too high-brow, while you tend to minimalize some important/basic points about that kind of music. You said you want "something more specific", so here it goes -

Most important, Celtic music is first and foremost folk music. It is simple, direct, and neat. It uses modes, and not tonality (forget D minor). The accompaniment/harmony uses typical modal sequences, i.e. you are to avoid the dominant-tonic relation (if not completely, as much as possible). The meter is swing-ed, as in jazz - it is not a "triangular" 6/8 time-signature unfolding equal eights, but rather a "binary" swing-ed 2/4. As formal structure, it is very clearly articulated, with cadences having the function that coma and period have in written poetry. The AABB, rondo, etc. overall form is less important than the neatness of the motives and phrases, as well as the clear "punctuation" between them (cadences, melodic turns).

Here is a small rough example of what I was talking about - a little tune based on a couple of your motives. It's far from being the best example (for that you have the original Celtic folk tunes), but its merit lies in using your material in a simpler way. Please take it only as an illustration of my points:
- modal idiom (the ol' Dorian),
- simple/neat melody,
- the insistence on the "subdominant" (its major third is the most characteristic feature of the Dorian mode: the major 6th)
- the use of the "major" chord based on the VII degree (it makes clear the absence of the leading tone)
- characteristic modal cadences
- swing'd meter
- short, distinct phrases

Focus on these few points above when you are listening to it -
http://media.putfile.com/celtictune

In a word, here is my advice: don't overdo it. Leave aside "the many types of celtic music out there" - it can only confuse you. Pick one type and stick to it. Keep your tune clean, simple, and neat. Very important: instead of using a pre-made tune and then try to find out what style it is, do it the natural way: first find a style, a model, then do something similar. Forget your tune and make a new one from skratch, based on a model. And do as I did with your tune - borrow whatever short motives, harmonic sequences, whatever characteristic elements from any original Celtic folk tune that you like. It is not only OK, it is mandatory when it comes to folk music.

HTH

[audiochild]

if you go here: http://www.davidrussellguitar.com/cd-data/1998-cel.htm

you'll come to the page of classical guitarist David Russell, one of the best of our times.
he arranged loads of traditional celtic songs for guitar on his record "message of the sea".
I'm not a fan of this record maybe because I don't like that kind of music but as it is the kind of music you are looking for arranged in a very simple and pure way (as it is solo guitar) you might get an impression of the music.
also, David Russell is someone who takes everything he does very serious and does a lot of research on the pieces he records, apart from that he's very familiar with old music.
though I don't like it I have to say its still miles better than all this pseudo celtic/irish stuff that many people tend to make today.
unfortunately you can only listen to 3 files there, there are better pieces on the record than these.

I'm sure if someone would be naughty enough he would be able to find the sheet music and the full mp3s in the web.

good luck

EDIT: just read a nice story on his page:

"If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. I often think in music. I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music."
(Albert Einstein)
When asked about his theory of relativity, he said:
"It occurred to me by intuition, and music was the driving force behind that intuition. My discovery was the result of musical perception."
Many times we run out of steam and find it very difficult to continue practicing. This is especially the case for young professionals and advanced students. The speed of progress slows down and it is disheartening to notice very little or no improvement after many days of hard work.
Take inspiration from the amateur musicians. They always have a few beautiful pieces of music in their repertiore to play for themselves (or for others at a party). They never forget they are doing this for the pure pleasure of making music, regardless of their level of ability.
Many great people have music in their lives and I always get a kick when I hear of someone who has excelled in another field and has music as a hobby.
I like the story of Albert Einstein playing the violin together with Albert Schweitzer on the piano.
A passage of music was not coming out very well so Schweitzer said to Einstein... "What's the matter Albert, can't you count?"

[Halvor_H]

What often strikes me regarding the Celtic music is the very frequent use of pentatonic scales, both minor and major.

As with all genres, I think you probably have to spend years and years of practising in order to really master the different styles. You can certainly learn a lot with the academic approach, but I really believe you also have to play lots and lots of music on a relevant instrument in order to really get the grasp on a certain style.

And I think most folk-musicians have a very practical approach to their music. I really don’t believe they start out with all the theory.

[Dave Bourke]

One composer to check out is Sean O Riada (particularly his "Mise Éire").

Kind regards.

[Counterpoint]

Did you check Wikipedia yet? If not, here is a good starting place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Ireland

If you start diving into some of the links on that page (eg: look for the link to "reels" under the "Music for Dancing" subsection) you can get some fairly detailed information.

There's also some pertinent information there about the pentatonic scale:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic

---

I like your example, but I agree with the others that maybe you're overcomplicating things a bit. I'd recommend isolating a specific type of music ("celtic music" is far too generalized) and tracking down some good recordings to study. Folk music is typically played by just a small group (eg: four or less musicians). Also, be careful with the context in which you use the bagpipes... it's really most effective as a solo instrument. I had the (mis)fortune of hearing an indoor bagpipe performance (actually was several pipers playing together). Their playing was great but I left that concert with a massive headache and ringing ears. In a 'natural' setting the pipes will easily overpower everything else (except maybe the drums).

Good luck with this, it sounds like an interesting project!

- Matt

[Sp3ctre18]

I'll reply later, I'm at college and gtg, but wanted to say thanks for all info, itl'l defeintately help.

and yeah, I do plan on narrowing it down and focusing on one certain coutnry/style/kind of music. I'm just trying to find some direction and see which way to go, that's why I posted my music so that hopefully someone can say "that *kinda* or vaguely sounds like ____, so that may be the style and coutnry you want to look at, and helpful links on that are ___." Because again, hopefuly I can use what I had already written, but if not, then I guses i'll just be forced to write up a new one, and then it's simply my choice on what to do. But I'm hoping my piece, in it's rythm and what little elements of celtic music is has, already kind of sounds like something, a certain coutnry, style, etc., so that I can focus on that, and fix up my piece as I learn more about it. I mean, at the very least I KNOW there's some sort of celtic music that's in 4/4 and with triplet rythms like what I have so far.

[DallasComposer]

And let us not forget one of the best ways to learn the music of those foreign lands is to go there, travel, maybe even live there awhile. Eat, sleep, play and work work with the locals. Learn their instruments and language. Ya hain't gonna find that in no book. You may end up even marrying one of 'em :o :) :o

[Sp3ctre18]

alright, sorry I was late with this reply, but just been busy.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all your help; my teacher even said that I got some great advice here ;) You all gave some great advice, especially Nicky because of the laying out of the characteristics. Very good replies here and I'll be keeping most of them in mind. The only things that my teacher stressed differently though, is that he would kinda want the reverse approach to thise piece than what you said, Nicky. Because this isn't a big deal or a competition or anything, and is for a basic music class, he'd rather have a better focus on form than getting all the Celtic aspects right.

In fact, here's what my teacher said. He thought what I had written was already pretty good, but, the form, as we all know, is messy, it's all over the place. It needs to have a clear form for the class to follow it and not think it's just a mess, and advises it to be an Irish Jig. He reminded what you, someone else said, or maybe i read it somewhere else, that the music is mainly and focused as a monophonic, single melody line, and any harmonizations are extra. So he pointed out how I had two melodies in the beginning, and told me that if I'm going to do any polyphony, keep it minimal, simple, and introduce the themes one by one. He also pointed out, that the last two measure of the my first melody has some strange / sudden ornamentation, so i have to simply that, keep the overall rythm and texture similar throughout. Finally, he said the ornamantation i had for the pipes shouldn't be there. *BAGPIPE* music can be highly ornamented and have all those little grace notes, but he said for this music, for say, Uillean pipes, grace notes should be sparse. Honestly I foudn that a little strange, although I'll accept maybe it shouldn't be as much as bagpipe music, doesn't fiddling, piping, and playing flute in this music commonly have such things as a personal touch, but again, maybe just a bit? Just wondering what any of you had to say on that.

Anyway, so in a nutshell, my teacher just advises me to fix up the form, keep the melody/rythm more regular, and simplify a bit. Personally though, since it's not going to be much extra work, (and he still reccomends it as possible) I will of course try to incorporate what I'm learning and all the advice you have given me here. From my research and he himself said, minor key is ok in the melody, since it's the Aeolian mode anyway, but I think I might do it in Mixolydian, which, if i'm not mistaken, is also the one you used in your sample piece, Nicky. I'm more used to Mixolydian; I need some time with Dorian to get to know it better :P

So, what i'm goign to do is modify what I have or practically write a new tune based on what I have. I'll write a jig, AABB, i might do a three-part jig, but i don't know how that works, would that be AABBCC? I'll try to use Mixolydian mode, keep it simple, low polyphony, at least no new themes / melodies as support, and well, i'll see what i come up with then.

and yes counterpoint, I've got like 20 bookmarks of wikipedia articles, from modes to countries and music.

Oh, also, I had forgotten, but I DO have a Bodhran sample; it's part of the eastwest sampler disk afterall, it's just a large bodhran, but close enough. Any advice on using the bodhran, or simply use a simple, steady rythm to keep the beat and accentuate main beats and stuff? Also, Nicky, you used a tambourine. i guess i've heard it in celtic music, but is that also faily common in say, an irish dance music? I know the Bodhran is used in Irish much, but don't know about the tambourine.

Again, thanks a ton everyone. :D

[Sp3ctre18]

I'd appreciate it if anyone had any more comments since I'm finishing up the project and should be done for monday

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

You could try drinking about 5 pints of their beer and then write something :)

[Sp3ctre18]

lol, yeah that will definately inspire me. :D

Actually I already wrote something. Irish Jig, whole thing repeated 3 times, each repeat having some slight variation. The only things I want to say about it is that where the tambourine is playing on the 1 and 4 counts, im actually goign to make the first note a shake held for three beats, and then punctuated/ended by the hit on the 4th beat, and there'll also be a shake at the end of each of the 3 times the jig is played. Also, i wonder if anyone thinks the 3rd variation is too drastic.

First part loosely based melodically and rythmically on my orginal tune, nicky's example, and another tune i heard. The B part is almost exacty straight from my original tune.

https://cms.psu.edu/AngelUploads/Files/rjf5061/Irish_Jig_MIDI.mp3

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Here's how I learned about celtic music. Maybe not totally authentic however.

I listen to all types. Clannad, Iona, Maire Brennan, Celtic Storm, Connie Dover, Lorenna McKennit, hell even Riverdance but of course there are better examples. (I LOVE IONA BTW)

However, I really understood it when I started playing the instruments. Such as a simple $10 penny whistle. Playing around with that and listening to music made me understand it more. Simply because some of the instruments are limited in what they can do.

I did an irish piece with myself playing penny whistle for string ensemble. Maybe not the best example but here you go: www.wingsofworship.com/nathan/strings.mp3