The Quest For Power!

[Nanto Warrior]

Hello everyone. Id like to know if stuffing 2GB more RAM into my 32-bit Windows XP Pentium 4 machine will make an ounce of difference, given that my processor is not dual core and I am not using Windows Vista Ultimate. My hard drive speed is 7200 RPM. I actually have two Gigabytes of RAM in my machine and the pathetic thing wont even playback 16+tracks of instances simultaneously! Its bloody pathetic! Do I really need to buy a new machine and link them up or can I actually get better performance with 4GB RAM in my P4 32-bit machine? Sam Fischermann, and all the guys at East West-Id like your advice too! Everyone welcome to make comments.

[LEX]

Hello everyone. Id like to know if stuffing 2GB more RAM into my 32-bit Windows XP Pentium 4 machine will make an ounce of difference, given that my processor is not dual core and I am not using Windows Vista Ultimate. My hard drive speed is 7200 RPM. I actually have two Gigabytes of RAM in my machine and the pathetic thing wont even playback 16+tracks of instances simultaneously! Its bloody pathetic! Do I really need to buy a new machine and link them up or can I actually get better performance with 4GB RAM in my P4 32-bit machine? Sam Fischermann, and all the guys at East West-Id like your advice too! Everyone welcome to make comments.

What is your host, and what sound card are you using?
That will make a difference as well.

Your latency settings of your audio card will too.

LEX

[Nanto Warrior]

Lex, Im using an EDIROL UA 3FX External soundcard and my host sequencer is Cubase 5 (And no this doesnt matter at all-the sequencer is really irrelevant, Id have got a new one by now if it wasnt!) There is absolutely no problem with audio latency-I simply need more power!

[LEX]

I am going to tell you that your host sequencer does make a difference.

The reason sequencers and apps are updated is to take advantage of new technology, better coding and better effiency.
Also, how the host deals with the audio card drive and its latency has to do with the host as well.

Reposting the same question over and over isn't going to give you the answer you want to hear.

RAM isn't going to make it more powerful.
Vista isn't going to make it more powerful.
Harddrives isn't going to make it more powerful.

With your system, you are never going to get 16 instances of Kompakt going, and play what you want.
Even people with more powerful systems are doing 5-8 kompakt instances, and that is about it.

Just because you want your Honda civic to drive like a Ferrari, doesn't mean it ever will.

Your best bet is to figure out how far you can go before it craps out.
Is that 4 Kompakts, 5 6.
Then that is your limit. After that, start bouncing down.

LEX

[Nanto Warrior]

Are you sure about that Lex? I read in an interview that David Newman had about 90+ instances of Kompakt open, and the only reason I even bother asking how to achieve this is because I know its possible-I mean what would be the point in any of us getting Vista and the potential 128 GB Capacity if the improvement in performance is insignificant?

How far before it craps out? Thats pretty bleak Lex! I only got my PC around last October. I love it-I just want to squeeze more....theres a way. I know there is....

Ive gotta give you more details tho....

2 Active VSTs on. All 8 patches of East West within the VST used. (adding to sixteen, cant use more than this cos not enough channels)

Do you have MSN Messenger Lex?

[Nanto Warrior]

Lex you have an amazing setup, presumably all networked through FX teleport. If you are looking for FULL symphonic orchestration how many simultaneuos tracks are you working with smoothly? (I really mean taking the mick out of you machine by squeezing the heck outta its potential here!)

We shouldnt have to bounce and bounce to mixdown all the time, we're composers, not trampolinists.

Personal pref. but would you go for a Pentium dual core or an Athlon AMD if you wanted a more powerful state of the art PC?

Cheers mate.

[LEX]

There is a big difference between instances and channels.

90 instances, would be 90 kompakts loaded with 8 midi channels each. (that is 720 midi channels.)

I think Newman uses Kontakt2 as well, not kompakt.

If he is talking channels, that is about 11 kompkats or 6 kontakts. Plus I am pretty sure David uses slave machines.
I am also pretty sure that David's host machine is alot more powerful then a P4 3.2.
There is more to things then just that someone else is doing it. So many other factors.

I am not using FX teleport. I am using Audio cards and Midi over lan all piped into 4 2408mkiii's via lightpipe.

Each Kompakt instances uses CPU, video uses CPU (and the codec can cause alot of CPU useage), and the number of voices use CPU as well as the audio card buffer size or latency uses CPU depending on how low it is. The audio card driver can effect your performance too.
Not all drivers are written the same, and better written drivers can work better at lower latencies.

I still have my P4 3.0, and working at 256(6ms) killed the machine when theying to run more.
Upping it to 512(12ms) allowed me to get more out of it. And this was an RME HDSP 9652 card.

Cubase 5 probably isn't great with the newer plugins. It is based on an older VST SDK spec and probably won't be as effiencet in handling VSTi's as newer versions.
VST5 is about 7 years old.
Your computer is about 4 years old as well.

I don't understand why you don't get more than 16 midi channels. Have you tried to add more?

My template has about 400 midi tracks and 80 sampler return audio tracks.

LEX

[Nanto Warrior]

I actually meant channels-not instances. Youd have to be a loon to want more than 16 Kompakt simultaneously running=thats 8 per instance. Why would anyone want that? Its pointless adding more than 17 channels because you cant allocate more than 17 patches! You can only duplicate the patches you already have! (17 is by routing this channel to 'ANY' in midi)

You must work in a production suite or professional studio. Youre not a one-man-gang are you? Audio cards and midi over lan with motu mk III's? Lightpipes? Do you ever run into trouble?

400 midi tracks?! But can you actually allocate different instruments to each of those midi channels or do you have to double up once you past the 16 threshold? Ive never sequenced with more than 17 instruments (one per channel) simultaneously.

What have you found about East West's compatibility when 'sweetening' your demos? And what is your opinion on patches for adagio writing? The engineers themselves have stated the product best for fast pieces, but what happens when you need to write a suite for string orchestra?

[LEX]

I actually meant channels-not instances. Youd have to be a loon to want more than 16 Kompakt simultaneously running=thats 8 per instance. Why would anyone want that? Its pointless adding more than 17 channels because you cant allocate more than 17 patches! You can only duplicate the patches you already have! (17 is by routing this channel to 'ANY' in midi)

You must work in a production suite or professional studio. Youre not a one-man-gang are you? Audio cards and midi over lan with motu mk III's? Lightpipes? Do you ever run into trouble?

400 midi tracks?! But can you actually allocate different instruments to each of those midi channels or do you have to double up once you past the 16 threshold? Ive never sequenced with more than 17 instruments (one per channel) simultaneously.

What have you found about East West's compatibility when 'sweetening' your demos? And what is your opinion on patches for adagio writing? The engineers themselves have stated the product best for fast pieces, but what happens when you need to write a suite for string orchestra?
Okay, I think you don't understand midi, and your host.

Midi is not limited, only in a "per port basis". You can have as many midi ports as you want.

With Midi Over LAN (replacing actual midi hardware) I have 64 ports, times 16 midi channels which is 1024 midi channels of which I am only using 320 midi channels.
Another 64 channels with Gigastudio2 and whatever I use in the host, which can be anywhere from 16 to 48 more channels.

with my slaves I use Kontakt 2 in standalone, which is 64 midi channels per.
Equal to 40 Kompakt instances, not including the host.

I have this much because I want every articulation loaded, for every section of the orchestra.
So all I have to do is click on a midi channel and play. I don't have to wait for things to load.
Each midi channel in Nuendo is set for a specific midi channel (not ANY), and that channel has a midi channel port (like, Strings 2(2nd bank of 16 midi channels on my string machine, or Brass 4, channel 16 which would be one of my tuba sample articulations).

If you load 4 kompkats in Cubase, under your Midi output on your single midi channels, you will have the option to route it to any 1 of the 4 instances.
It might be labeled, Kompakt 1, Kompakt 2, ect.
So Midi channels 1-8, will go to Kompakt 1, midi channels 1-8 will go to Kompakt 2, 1-8 will goto kompakt 3, ect.
How ever you want to route it.
Each midi channel number, equals the slot or instrument loaded on each Kompakt.
You can use 1-8 or 1-16 over and over again, but your midi output will dictate which module VSTi it goes to.
So K #1, is 1-8 and is strings (you have 8 midi channels 1-8 going to k #1)
Then K#2, is woods, and the 8 channels are midi 1-8 but assigned to k #2 ect.

A typical session might contain at least 100 midi tracks of stuff. I don't use EW exclusively, so I blend and combined, use one for 1 thing and EW for another.

I have never heard anyone say EW was best for fast stuff or slow stuff. Getting to know how the library works, the Continues Controllers programmed into each sample you can use, is key.
You need to learn what the library can do and can't do. Personally, I don't feel there is any one library that contains it all.
EW doesn't have flutter tongue samples, so I have to use another for that.
I have patches I like from EW, and patches I like from other non EW libraries.
Which, because this is the EW forum, I will not mention.

EW has probably been the most attentive company in the entire software game, so I respect them and their products more than they know.

I don't run into trouble as of yet with my setup, other than heat. It get warm, so I have to run AC to cool the room.

Everything get a different treatment. So sometimes it is primarily EW, somtimes it is somthing else.
It is tough, because having recording live orchs, I become overcritical when it comes to the sound after the fact when using samples.

Here is the original post from the "studio pic" post. It is all mine. Though the picture is way to old.
I have changed alot since last year. I am missing 2 slave shuttles, the Motu 2408's, the Lucid clock, and the NS-10's and right side up. LOL!

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=5230&highlight=post+pics+studio

LEX

[Nanto Warrior]

Thats AMAZING power Lex. My host is Cubase VST five, I cant load more than 2 full VSTs (8 patches within each) without running into trouble-hell Id love to have 4 VSTs (thats pretty much all Cubase VST is gonna allow) but I ruhn into RAM/HD issues and slowdown. Considering my single computer has to do this job, Im not surprised. Do you work in LA by any chance?

[JSP]

Jumping in here for a moment..

Lex, When you say you have 64 ports... are you referring to external hardware/sources?

and also that your slaves run 64 channels... Are you referring to additional computers?

I'm with Nanto on this... my system (Cubase SL3)can only run about 3 instances (3 X 8 channels of unique voices) before it starts to chug... this is with my sample rate set full, 3 gigs ram with a 3.4 Intel

I guess I would ask the question.. if all your external connections were disabled, how many channels/ instances of unique voicing could your main system handle alone?




This is an area I've been trying to understand myself for quite a while.

I get the impression everyone else is able to run endless voices.

~Jeff

[LEX]

Jumping in here for a moment..

Lex, When you say you have 64 ports... are you referring to external hardware/sources?

and also that your slaves run 64 channels... Are you referring to additional computers?

I'm with on this... my system (Cubase SL3)can only run about 3 instances (3 X 8 channels of unique voices) before it starts to chug... this is with my sample rate set full, 3 gigs ram with a 3.4 Intel

I guess I would ask the question.. if all your external connections were disabled, how many channels/ instances of unique voicing could your main system handle alone?




This is an area I've been trying to understand myself for quite a while.

I get the impression everyone else is able to run endless voices.

~Jeff


64 Ports - Midi Over LAN Platinum. 64 times 16 channels, or 1024 midi channels total.
Slaves, read my specs. They are all in there.

My original test was probably 12-14 kompakts(I don't remember exactly), and 300+ voices at 6ms.
I was going to use Konakt 1.5 anyway, so I had 6 or 7 of them loaded to about 2.25 gigs of RAM and never ran into any problems at 6ms.
With that, and Altiverb, I believe I was hovering around 20-25 percent CPU.
But since Kontakt2 doesn't sync to Midi clock, I had to move all my time based stuff to the host and move all the orch to other systems.

LEX

[Nanto Warrior]

Lex, where can I listen to your music?

[Musiguy]

Hello Nanto,

While LEX is definitely on the upper end of the hardware spectrum, most don’t need nearly that much. Loading every possible articulation isn’t the most practical approach for obvious reasons. 30+ patches for a relatively decent size orchestra is not difficult to achieve and can be done on one machine. Your DFD settings will definitely make a big difference. I suggest setting it to the lowest setting, and then begin loading your patches then increase as needed. I would also suggest getting Kompakt 2 as it more efficient with memory (or just wait for PLAY). Another thing to look at is a 64 bit environment. With a decent setup, and 4 GIGs of RAM, you can easily load up 5+ instances of Kontakt for 80+ patches. When PLAY comes out, 100+ patches should be a piece of cake (this is only speculation of course).

Good luck-

[LEX]

Hello Nanto,

While LEX is definitely on the upper end of the hardware spectrum, most don’t need nearly that much. Loading every possible articulation isn’t the most practical approach for obvious reasons. 30+ patches for a relatively decent size orchestra is not difficult to achieve and can be done on one machine. Your DFD settings will definitely make a big difference. I suggest setting it to the lowest setting, and then begin loading your patches then increase as needed. I would also suggest getting Kompakt 2 as it more efficient with memory (or just wait for PLAY). Another thing to look at is a 64 bit environment. With a decent setup, and 4 GIGs of RAM, you can easily load up 5+ instances of Kontakt for 80+ patches. When PLAY comes out, 100+ patches should be a piece of cake (this is only speculation of course).

Good luck-
Well, loading every articulation can be a practical approach depending on how you work.
Blending 2 different samples together to get a better, more realistic patch is one.
Also, having to wait to load up another sample, patch it, route it ect really kills the flow of inspiration.

No GO on 64 bit with his setup. P4 is NOT a 64bit chip, so the 64bit OS will not work.
Cubase 5 isn't a 64bit app, or a 32bit app with LMAA switch so it will never see more than 2 gigs anyway.

Biggest problem is that he is using a 7 year old app, and expecting it to work with todays latest software VSTi's that are all based on newer code that is being hosted by a lesser version SDK then the VSTi.

LEX

[Musiguy]

No GO on 64 bit with his setup. P4 is NOT a 64bit chip, so the 64bit OS will not work.Cubase 5 isn't a 64bit app, or a 32bit app with LMAA switch so it will never see more than 2 gigs anyway.

Biggest problem is that he is using a 7 year old app, and expecting it to work with todays latest software VSTi's that are all based on newer code that is being hosted by a lesser version SDK then the VSTi.
LEX

It's true that the 64 bit approach won't work for the hardware he has now. I should have mentioned that this option is for when he decides to buy a new system down the road. And definately updating his DAW is necessary.

[LEX]

It's true that the 64 bit approach won't work for the hardware he has now. I shold have mentioned that this option is for when he decides to buy a new system down the road. And definately updating his DAW is necessary.
He will also need to update Cubase 5.

The 64bit approach won't work with it either.

LEX

[Nanto Warrior]

I see.....thats a damn shame. I LOVE my computer-its the first one ive EVER bought and I got it in late 2005....I didn't know much about computers back then, or the requirements for raw power and speed...I'm planning to buy a customized PC (from a specialist retailer like Voodoo) and would like to know your opinions on the best processor-top end AMD 64 bit VS. top end Intel Dual Core?

Will update Cubase as required.

Will also use the hell outta this PC before buying a new one!

And Lex- Where can I hear your music? you still haven't directed me! Lol

Thank you both.

[Musiguy]

I don’t really know about the AMD side, but as far as Intel goes, the Core 2 duo E6600 probably has the best bang for the buck. I just recently bought a Dell XPS with this processor and 4Gigs of RAM - It’s pretty sweet… I'll be going for a 64 bit setup as well in the near future.

[Musiguy]

Well, loading every articulation can be a practical approach depending on how you work.Blending 2 different samples together to get a better, more realistic patch is one.
Also, having to wait to load up another sample, patch it, route it ect really kills the flow of inspiration.

LEX

No offence, but yes this is certainly a work flow issue. I was merely pointing out that most of the budding composers on this forum probably don't have money to spend on huge studios, so only loading articulations as needed is the simplest way to get started.

I agree with Nanto - do you have any examples of your work that you can post? I would love to hear what is possible with a fairly large setup.

[Musiguy]

And Lex- Where can I hear your music? you still haven't directed me! Lol

I guess not… I’ve seen a number of folks asking the same thing, but hey not everyone on this forum is a composer. And even if they are, not everyone feels comfortable posting their stuff.

[LEX]

I guess not… I’ve seen a number of folks asking the same thing, but hey not everyone on this forum is a composer. And even if they are, not everyone feels comfortable posting their stuff.
Makes you feel better to think that huh!

LEX

[Musiguy]

Well my reply was to Nanto... doesn't really matter what I think - but some sort of a response would have been nice. As you well know, some of the folks on here are professional copyists, arrangers, orchestrators, and some are composers, as well as various combinations of each. Some are just hobbyists doing it for the fun of it. I myself am a IT computer geek and have been a part-time professional musician for over 20 yrs, doing mostly orchestral and studio work. I dabble with EWQL, etc as a hobby. This forum is a great help, and with such knowledgeable folks such as yourself, it's been a blast. Of course, everyone has there own opinion about things, etc, and some like to argue (myself inculded :p ), but it's all good...