Fair Rate for Student Film?

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

I know many questions have been asked before. But I'm curious as to how much I should charge a student for a student film that is entirely funded by the film school and not him.

I've already charged some amounts, but I'm wondering what a fair amount is. I don't want to scare these guys away, but I feel I should get a piece since nothing was funded from the school for me of course.

[Jeff Hayat]

I know many questions have been asked before. But I'm curious as to how much I should charge a student for a student film that is entirely funded by the film school and not him.

I've already charged some amounts, but I'm wondering what a fair amount is. I don't want to scare these guys away, but I feel I should get a piece since nothing was funded from the school for me of course.

Nothing. Not for a student film. I am all for composers getting paid for their work - absolutely so if there is even a slim chance the film might be bought, or released on even a small commercial scale. However - a student film? No. You both make out on the deal. He gets a free score for his film, and you get:

1) more practice...
---a) scoring a film
---b) learning how to work with a director
2) to develop a relationship with someone who may go on to direct other films, in which they may hire you for money
3) to develop a relationship with someone who may refer you to another student, who may request you to score their film for free, who themselves may go on to direct other films, in which they may hire you for money
4) a "demo" of sorts to shop around - instead of simply handing out a home-made demo of some odd cues you made, you get to hand someone a real film you scored - I can't stress how much better it is to hand a director/producer/studio exec. a film with good music, as opposed to a demo reel of great music that doesn't pertain or relate to moving images.

I dunno - sounds to me like you make more on the deal than the student.

Good luck.

[jeremyopio]

Common sense says feel it out and see what kind of budget they have and try to get a win win between you and the school. Often you can get some money as well as the above mentioned experience, by asking them to make an offer that they feel is appropriate. Let them know you are sensitive to their needs as a school with it's financial challenges and see what they come up with, i think just saying no and doing it for free might be cutting out the possibility for income.

[Dannthr]

I agree, let them make the first move. (That's the way to treat indy work)

With that said, I do feel like most student work (even over regular indy work) should be a bit more unfettered by costs.

I have several friends who are film majors and I would gladly score their film for free (or for a free lunch ;) ).

At the same time, I have no qualms about soaking the University if they're paying. :eek:

[joenovice]

Work for a deferred profit share. Make an agreement that states you work for free but would retain a % of the profit if the film were to sell.

This agreement should also include other details that should be addressed up front; credt listing, one sheet credits, time needed to complete composition from delivery of locked picture, ownership of copyrights and usage details, etc.

Even if it's a student project they should learn how to deal with a professional composer.

[hemloc]

But I'm curious as to how much I should charge a student for a student film that is entirely funded by the film school and not him.

Lots of beer and lapdances;)!!!

But seriously, since there is an established budget(And it's not coming from the filmmaker!), you should definitely get paid. If the budget is $105,000,000, you can safely ask for $800,000, lol....

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Fairly good input thankyou.

I've charged some fees simply because they are projects that require a short deadline, and there are costs at stake. But it's enough for them to comfortably afford.

[joenovice]

I've charged some fees simply because they are projects that require a short deadline, and there are costs at stake. But it's enough for them to comfortably afford.


Charged some fees!!!... You better be charging SOME fees! Look at the gear you've got listed!!! To have that setup you have to charge some fees.

Short deadlines or not.... if someone thinks enough of your music/skill to use it in their project they should pay you something. If they don't have enough to pay you anything up front then you need an agreement for something after profit.

[nikolas]

Not exactly Joe,

simply put, if the school is having a budget, hit them as hard as possible (cause let's face it all the equipment the students will use come from the school. You bought your own), but if the studnet is just a student with no help, with some camera borrowed and a computer, then don't charge.

On the matter of the ammount, it's up to you really...

[joenovice]

then don't charge

You are saying that its not a good idea to ask the student to sign a contract requesting a profit share?

Isn't it true that sound/music can make or break a film. I've read of an early film that was released without a score and was laughed out of the box office. The same film was given a score, released a few years later, and won an oscar. Music can make a film.

Student films also have a chance of being purchased or winning prize money at festivals. If your music and hard work made that a better film, I feel that you should recieve some of the proceeds.

Good will is honorable... honor doesn't pay rent or buy bread. If you are a working musician then know what your time is worth. If you a hobbiest then be honorable and a kid's hero.

[nickysnd]

I do music for student projects for free. Yet I think that in this particular case the university is acting like a producer. So, negotiate with them - either a deferred profit share, as joenovice said, or for about 1-3% of the total final budget. Or both. :) Try to keep the copyrights, although usually in work for hire you won't keep them, but maybe they don't know that, so just try, everything is negotiable... ;)

I've read of an early film that was released without a score and was laughed out of the box office. The same film was given a score, released a few years later, and won an oscar. Music can make a film.
I've heard too about that. Is that true, or a myth? Do you know the film's title?

[nikolas]

You are saying that its not a good idea to ask the student to sign a contract requesting a profit share?
I'm talking about fees or licensing fees. Not profit share, or %. completely different. Of course the minute the film makes any money the composer should get some money.

bottom line for me is this: If the film is making money, or using a budget to be created then the composer should get some. If the film is not getting any money, or is a freeware game etc, then the composer shouldn't get any money.

If in the process the film/game (I'm putting game as well cause I work in games), gets commercialised then things change and a fee should be arranged. Preferably before hand so there are not complications and misundertsandings.

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Let me clarify something:

First of all they are short films, not feature length. They pay the flim school for the education. The film school lends the equipment and studio (obviously if it's a class) any outside work (such as me) is paid for directly from the student, not the school.

Anyway, you all have some good opinions and I shall think of them in projects in the future.

[joenovice]

I've heard too about that. Is that true, or a myth? Do you know the film's title?

The film was The Lost Weekend staring Ray Milland. The film is about an alcoholic. The first showing drew snickering and giggles from the audience - the opposite of the filmakers intent. It was pulled, shelved, and almost left for dead. Composer Miklos Rosza was hired to do the score. It was released again and won best actor, best picture, and best director. Rosza recieved no award even thought the score was the only change to the original.

-- pg. 28 from Complete Guide to Film Scoring by Richard Davis via Berklee Press.

BTW this is one of the best books everyone should own.

bottom line for me is this: If the film is making money, or using a budget to be created then the composer should get some. If the film is not getting any money, or is a freeware game etc, then the composer shouldn't get any money.


My point exactly.... there has to be a contract first. Negotiations after the score is done are not safe.... best do it right the first time.

[Dannthr]

Profit share is fair, but if the school is funding the project, then it probably has another purpose than sales--that's a custom situation.

[joenovice]

then it probably has another purpose than sales--that's a custom situation.

yea... like promotion, advertisment, website development. That's another thing I would ask for in the deal memo; links to my site, contact information, credits, etc.

[Thomas Regin]

but I'm wondering what a fair amount is

$6000/minute would be a fair price for a student movie. If they don't want to/can't pay that, then they don't believe enough in their work and the project is doomed from the beginning.

Of course, for this amount we won't be able to hire a real symphonic orchestra to record the music, but we will of course provide a full score, so that the students can have it recorded somewhere else.

Yes, that seems just about fair in my eyes! :D

*Tom leaning back, waiting for his next short film.*

/Tom.

[nikolas]

Your post does not reserve a reply Thomas :D

It is then true that every thread you enter is completely ruined! :(

let's see now. 6000$ pm. if the film is 90 with a 70 minute soundtrack we get 6,000x70=420,000$ not bad for a student film :D

I think I'll ask 5999$, just to get the job.

* Nikolas leaning back, waiting for his next short film of 90 minutes :D *

/Nikolas.

[nickysnd]

Joenovice, thanks! I own that book, but I forgot about that example.

[Thomas Regin]

It is then true that every thread you enter is completely ruined!

Well, to quote Peter Cetera, it's a hard habit to break, but eventually I'll probably learn that what I say is not always funny (though I honestly doubt that) and that the world does not revolve around me (which I know for a fact isn't true).

$420.000 isn't a bad pay. You'd only need around ten 90 minute movies a year to make a decent living then! :D

/Tom..

[nikolas]

don't worry Tom,

I think that you are very funny! I just tried to copy you and failed :(

Well 420,000$ could get me your appartmeent in copenhagen right? so? Where are the papers then?

[joenovice]

Thus, I don't think that in the larger film schools in the U.S. negotiating a back-end profit is possible since the school is the eventual owner of the copyright and all of the paperwork for music release is standard.

Does this imply that the school owns the publishing rights for the soundtrack? Would the composer sign over his writing share of the rights? or retain both?

Can you list any specifics in regards to the music release standards?

[joenovice]

Nice info.... it would be interesting to see what the details of the release stated.