question about routers

[ai6276]

anyone have any input on a very good router to use for midioverlan? cisco??? performance and power is what im looking for.

thank you.

[cosmodos]

Get a gigabit switch, not a router.

[ai6276]

yeah i was thinking switch from the start but ya never know---- as far as this gigabit switch- can ya give me some feedback on it and some info where i can go see a good one on the net for my own perusal.

thank you.


ps-
my rig is offline--

[Musiguy]

A Gigabit switch is a great idea, but can get pretty pricy. A 10/100 switch will work just as well for a fraction of the cost. Most MIDI over LAN implementations are based around UDP packets, which are a pretty simple form of communication. Also with an excellent signal, a 54Mb wireless router will work fine too, but a wired connection is the most reliable.

[LEX]

They are not that expensive anymore.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122111
This is the one I have.

Actually, I can't even find any 10/100 switches anymore. Gigabit has become common place, and that is what is pretty much available everywhere.

Get Gigabit. It makes a difference, especially when transfering files between systems.
And should you want to use FX Teleport, Tbase 100 will not cut it.

LEX

[balbs]

What's the bandwidth of midi over lan and fx teleport. Why won't a 100 base switch "cut it".

Also, if you're going to get a relatively cheap unmanaged Gig switch, I would get all Gig ethernet cards for my machines because mixing Gig and 100 base network devices will not negotiate well unless you specifically tell the ethernet card what speed the switch it's connected to or use a managed Gig switch and tell it what speed the ethernet card is on the port it's plugged into. (hope you understand what I'm trying to say). That way you will get the best throughput for all your devices.

Balbs

[LEX]

What's the bandwidth of midi over lan and fx teleport. Why won't a 100 base switch "cut it".

Also, if you're going to get a relatively cheap unmanaged Gig switch, I would get all Gig ethernet cards for my machines because mixing Gig and 100 base network devices will not negotiate well unless you specifically tell the ethernet card what speed the switch it's connected to or use a managed Gig switch and tell it what speed the ethernet card is on the port it's plugged into. (hope you understand what I'm trying to say). That way you will get the best throughput for all your devices.

Balbs
The MOL bandwidth isn't much. But FXT is.

FXT is running audio over the network, and if you are trying to run low latency, 100baseT is too slow.
To get 128 to 256 buffers on 100baseT that is solid and reliable just isn't going to happen.

And if you have multiple systems, all coming into 1 system, your network bandwidth is going to increase.

I have 2 systems that are 100baseT, and they run MOL. It works just fine combined with my Gigabit network.

LEX

[ai6276]

The MOL bandwidth isn't much. But FXT is.

FXT is running audio over the network, and if you are trying to run low latency, 100baseT is too slow.
To get 128 to 256 buffers on 100baseT that is solid and reliable just isn't going to happen.

And if you have multiple systems, all coming into 1 system, your network bandwidth is going to increase.

I have 2 systems that are 100baseT, and they run MOL. It works just fine combined with my Gigabit network.

LEX

could you please explain in a bit more detail what the difference between the FXT and the 100baseT is....what exactly is 100baseT?

[LEX]

could you please explain in a bit more detail what the difference between the FXT and the 100baseT is....what exactly is 100baseT?
FXT = FX Teleport. And application that sends midi and audio over ethernet.

Audio, 24bit/48k will take up alot of bandwidth. The more outputs used, and the lower the latency needs gigabit, not 100 base ethernet.

100 base T = 100 megabits per second, baseband (no frequency shifting used) and T is Twisted Pair (the type of cable)

Typical ethernet speeds are 10, 100 and 1000 megabits.

1000 is Gigabit. 10 times the speed of 100.

LEX

[ai6276]

FXT = FX Teleport. And application that sends midi and audio over ethernet.

Audio, 24bit/48k will take up alot of bandwidth. The more outputs used, and the lower the latency needs gigabit, not 100 base ethernet.

100 base T = 100 megabits per second, baseband (no frequency shifting used) and T is Twisted Pair (the type of cable)

Typical ethernet speeds are 10, 100 and 1000 megabits.

1000 is Gigabit. 10 times the speed of 100.

LEX

so to run 2-3 computers via MOL... if i get a good gigabit switch i should be fine for orchestral composition using EWQLSO Platinuim? and choirs.... - in having different sections of the orchestra on one HD like strings. and brass on another etc....???

[LEX]

so to run 2-3 computers via MOL... if i get a good gigabit switch i should be fine for orchestral composition using EWQLSO Platinuim? and choirs.... - in having different sections of the orchestra on one HD like strings. and brass on another etc....???

Yes. MOL doesn't need Gigabit, but Gigabit is pretty much the norm now, and 100BaseT is pretty much and OLD item.

That is the way I have it.

Host with MOL Platinum (64 ports) to 6 Slaves with MOL Standard (16 Ports)
1 Slave Each for
Choirs, Brass, Woods, Strings, Perc, and Synths via FX Teleport.

LEX

[ai6276]

Yes. MOL doesn't need Gigabit, but Gigabit is pretty much the norm now, and 100BaseT is pretty much and OLD item.

That is the way I have it.

Host with MOL Platinum (64 ports) to 6 Slaves with MOL Standard (16 Ports)
1 Slave Each for
Choirs, Brass, Woods, Strings, Perc, and Synths via FX Teleport.

LEX


ok i think i get it -


hey listen i was reading some other threads last night where you were talking about sonica computers......how are those workstations anyway? do you have one? if so -how do they run with ewqlso (performance wise) etc....??....will they install the software and optimize the system for owners of ewqlso?

[LEX]

ok i think i get it -


hey listen i was reading some other threads last night where you were talking about sonica computers......how are those workstations anyway? do you have one? if so -how do they run with ewqlso (performance wise) etc....??....will they install the software and optimize the system for owners of ewqlso?
I build my own, so I don't have any of them.

I know Guy there and he is stellar at what he does. He has helped me out of some jams.

You will get a system that will work fine with EW. Just call him up and ask him.
They are quiet too. Very quiet.
Excellent support and Quality control You can't go wong here.
You can with others.

When I used to build Giga2's for people, I would test them for 72 hours on full load and 99 percent RAM usage. If it failed, I'd go back, tweak and retest.

Same kind of QC I believe. They do burn ins.
LEX

[ai6276]

what do you mean they do burn-ins?:confused:

[LEX]

what do you mean they do burn-ins?:confused:
Rather than just building the system and turning it on and installing the software, the system is put through a series of CPU tests and RAM tests ect, to be sure that the system is stable.

A Burn it will tell you within 24-48 hours if you have bad RAM, CPU, Powersupply ect.

There are many places who will put one together, run it for a few hours and send it out only for the client to find to days later it isn't functioning properly.

Then it is a "shipping" issue where you have to pull it apart, reseat RAM, video ect only to find that you have to send it back to them.

In all reality, problems like that are less than 2 percent so to turn it around faster, the burnin time is shorter and if their is a problem, they will fix it.
But kind of a bummer to have to wait, ship back and wait some more.

I'd personally would never turn one around that quick for a sale, and wouldn't realease it if I found problems.
And in the long run that is bad for business, so I turned down 2 day requests ect. and eventually stopped building for others.

Bottom line, I'd rather you be happy out of the box than disappointed and angry.
Sonica-x is what I would have been should I have continued.

Quality Control. It means something.

Look at PLAY. It isn't out. EW is going through all of it and isn't going to release it until it is ready.
A good approach.

LEX

[ai6276]

i see.....well i have been looking around at other systems built by other companies - like visiondaw, pcaudiolabs - of course mac (which i will get, and want nooww!!!!:D ) as well as sonica....it appears to me that they (sonica) have beter prices and you get more for that price....they have reputable clients and such....so i am leaning more towards choosing them when i buy a new workstation here in a couple of weeks.... i was for a long while going to go with vision daw because they install the software and what not for you etc. however, i can do that my self- i would rather have more ram and a stronger processor for less than what vision daw would charge me-- hmmm makes sense i suppose --- anyway, yeah i think i am going to go with them- sounds good.

[Musiguy]

What's the bandwidth of midi over lan and fx teleport. Why won't a 100 base switch "cut it".

Also, if you're going to get a relatively cheap unmanaged Gig switch, I would get all Gig ethernet cards for my machines because mixing Gig and 100 base network devices will not negotiate well unless you specifically tell the ethernet card what speed the switch it's connected to or use a managed Gig switch and tell it what speed the ethernet card is on the port it's plugged into. (hope you understand what I'm trying to say). That way you will get the best throughput for all your devices.

Balbs

100Mb should suffice – it all depends on your setup. Only if you experience pops and drop outs should you upgrade to Gigabit. The easiest way to tell before buying all new equipment is to connect both PCs via a cross-over cable and set both NICs to 100 Full. Install the 14 day demo and test it out. And yes if your PCs don’t have a built-in 10/100/1000 NIC, you will have to buy those as well as the switch.

[LEX]

100Mb should suffice – it all depends on your setup. Only if you experience pops and drop outs should you upgrade to Gigabit. The easiest way to tell before buying all new equipment is to connect both PCs via a cross-over cable and set both NICs to 100 Full. Install the 14 day demo and test it out. And yes if your PCs don’t have a built-in 10/100/1000 NIC, you will have to buy those as well as the switch.
This makes no sense.

Why go with slower when you can have faster. Gigabit cards are 30-40 bucks.
8 Port Switch is 70 bucks.

Even MusicLab recommends Gigabit ethernet over 100baseT.

Being that I have used 100baseT for FX Teleport, I can tell you that when running heavy synths, 512 even caused dropouts. Only running at 1024 would I get less problems.
When I went Gigabit, I was able to take the latency down to 128-256 without dropouts.

Considering 4 years ago, Gigabit was alot more expensive I could understand.
But now, it is what is in every new machine.

It is like trying to save 20 bucks in buying an Audio card that only does 16bit.
Why not spend 20 bucks and be at full speed and compatible for future upgrades.

Plus, who really knows yet how PLAY is going to work over 100baseT with several slaves.
We may find that it bottlenecks, then you have to go through the motion of replacing your 100baseT ethernet cards.

Which in the long run is going to cost you more.

Buy cheap, Buy Twice!

LEX

[V o n h ö g e n]

anyone have any input on a very good router to use for midioverlan? cisco??? performance and power is what im looking for.

thank you.

How many computers do you want to connect? If you only have two computers, there is no need to buy a switch. A simple crosslink-cable will then do the trick.

Jerome

[ai6276]

How many computers do you want to connect? If you only have two computers, there is no need to buy a switch. A simple crosslink-cable will then do the trick.

Jerome


i am going to be connecting 4 computers. so a switch is the correct choice.

[ai6276]

This makes no sense.

Why go with slower when you can have faster. Gigabit cards are 30-40 bucks.
8 Port Switch is 70 bucks.

Even MusicLab recommends Gigabit ethernet over 100baseT.

Being that I have used 100baseT for FX Teleport, I can tell you that when running heavy synths, 512 even caused dropouts. Only running at 1024 would I get less problems.
When I went Gigabit, I was able to take the latency down to 128-256 without dropouts.

Considering 4 years ago, Gigabit was alot more expensive I could understand.
But now, it is what is in every new machine.

It is like trying to save 20 bucks in buying an Audio card that only does 16bit.
Why not spend 20 bucks and be at full speed and compatible for future upgrades.

Plus, who really knows yet how PLAY is going to work over 100baseT with several slaves.
We may find that it bottlenecks, then you have to go through the motion of replacing your 100baseT ethernet cards.

Which in the long run is going to cost you more.

Buy cheap, Buy Twice!

LEX


buy cheap buy twice, is absolutely correct. we all have done it, but few get it. duh. i learned that when i was about 12, seriously. if you wait a little bit longer you can likely get the better one and then you are straight. or buy the lesser one and run the risk of having to either buy the better one anyway, or re-buy what you already bought. viscious circle.



what is this "PLAY" i have been hearing about? is it software?

[cosmodos]

If you use any East West products, you'll notice that they use the Kompakt player from Native Instruments as their playback engine.

PLAY is the new engine being developed by East West for their products. All new EW libraries will use it and most current libraries will have upgrades to it. It uses 64-bit architecture (though it is also 32-bit compatible), is fully Vista compatible, will utilize RAM much more efficiently, and in many ways will outperform Native Instrument's Kontakt 2 (mind you, though, that PLAY is a playback engine, not a sampler).

PLAY will first be available when the new libraries are released, but no dates have been set for other products and upgrades.

[V o n h ö g e n]

i am going to be connecting 4 computers. so a switch is the correct choice.

I have been using a 100BaseT switch with 4 computers and MOL myself for more than a year, and I have never experienced any problems. I must say though, that I use separate soundcards, so it's just MIDI data flowing around between my computers.

Once in a while, I use FX-Teleport for specific tasks. In combination with the 100BaseT switch, the resulting audio streams clearly put the network under a lot of stress causing some clicks and pops, occasionally. I may upgrade to a Gigabit switch if I keep using FX-Teleport. But first, I want to try out PLAY as soon as it arrives, before replacing any hardware.

If you want to use your connections for more than the exchange of MIDI messages, a Gigabit switch may be the right choice. However, buying a Gigabit switch just to run MIDI over LAN doesn't make any sense to me, frankly.

Jerome

[LEX]

If you want to use your connections for more than the exchange of MIDI messages, a Gigabit switch may be the right choice. However, buying a Gigabit switch just to run MIDI over LAN doesn't make any sense to me, frankly.

Jerome
True, but again the overall cost difference in the 2 is so little, why even bother with 100BT?

And again, as technology progresses, more networking features and audio streaming ect, getting 100BT as saving 50 bucks right then is just foolish.

Should you start using other machines for backup, copying over Enet (backup through the network) ect, Gigabit just makes sense.

Don't forget, as NAS (Network Attached Storage) starts becoming more of a reality, being at 100BT is like using 10BT.

The price difference between a Dlink 100BT and a Gigabit card is 5 dollars.
The price difference between a 100BT switch and a Gigabit switch is 27 dollars.

So if you have 4 computers, with 100BT built in (which I don't see anymore), it would cost you an extra 20 bucks to add PCI cards.
And extra 27 to put in an 8 port Gigabit switch.

$47 dollars more for 10 times the speed, easy future upgrade for what is coming and you are already to go.
Even if you stuck with just the switch at this point and the puters at 100BT it makes sense.
The switch is ready to go when you upgrade.

The GB switch is backward compatible to 100, and 10.

I really don't understand the reluctance of less than 50 dollars to go Gigabit.
It isn't 500 bucks like it was 4 years ago when I upgraded to Gigabit.

Since we are there, then Get CAT6 cable, not CAT 5. It makes a difference and will make more in the long run and in the future.

Again, future proof!

LEX

[ai6276]

I have been using a 100BaseT switch with 4 computers and MOL myself for more than a year, and I have never experienced any problems. I must say though, that I use separate soundcards, so it's just MIDI data flowing around between my computers.

Once in a while, I use FX-Teleport for specific tasks. In combination with the 100BaseT switch, the resulting audio streams clearly put the network under a lot of stress causing some clicks and pops, occasionally. I may upgrade to a Gigabit switch if I keep using FX-Teleport. But first, I want to try out PLAY as soon as it arrives, before replacing any hardware.

If you want to use your connections for more than the exchange of MIDI messages, a Gigabit switch may be the right choice. However, buying a Gigabit switch just to run MIDI over LAN doesn't make any sense to me, frankly.

Jerome

what are you running on your system though?
how many midi channels at a time etc?

[V o n h ö g e n]

True, but again the overall cost difference in the 2 is so little, why even bother with 100BT?(...)
The price difference between a Dlink 100BT and a Gigabit card is 5 dollars.
The price difference between a 100BT switch and a Gigabit switch is 27 dollars.


I didn't know the price for a Gigabit switch had dropped that much. I'll check the prices in my local store to see if it's the same here in Europe.

I really don't understand the reluctance of less than 50 dollars to go Gigabit.
It isn't 500 bucks like it was 4 years ago when I upgraded to Gigabit.


That's exactly why I bought a 100BaseT switch instead of a Gigabit switch, a couple of years ago. Gigabit switches used to be very expensive.

Since we are there, then Get CAT6 cable, not CAT 5. It makes a difference and will make more in the long run and in the future.


I believe I have CAT 5e cables here. Do you know if an upgrade to CAT 6 is still worth while in terms of speed?

Jerome

[LEX]

Yeah! Prices have dropped dramatically.

My Netgear Switch was 200 bucks 3 years ago, and now it is 54 bucks.

Gigabit is the standard for networks now, not 100BT.

CAT6 is still better and will improve the performance on your network, and probably even on your 100BT network.
Price for Cat6 isn't much more than Cat5 (I build my own, so price is very low)
1000 feet of CAT 5 is 35 bucks.
1000 feet of CAT 6 is 70 bucks.

RJ45's are about 30 bucks for 50 ends.

The biggest cost of building your own is the crimper. 4 years ago I paid 200 bucks for the cripper. They are still around 100 plus bucks.

But, people ask me for cables all the time. SO I can build a 25 footer for 3 bucks cost and charge 10 bucks for the cable, even though most the local shops and retailers charge 30 bucks for CAT5 at 25 feet.

LEX

[V o n h ö g e n]

what are you running on your system though?
how many midi channels at a time etc?

Most of the time, I'm running Nuendo 3.2, Sibelius 4, and Kontakt 2 on three PCs, with MIDI over LAN and FX-Teleport. My fourth computer is a MAC running Logic and MOL. From East West, I use Platinum ProXP, Gold ProXP, Symphonic Choirs, RA, Bösendorfer 290, Percussive Adventures 2, Hardcore Bass XP and StormDrum. Furthermore, I use Avid Pro HD a lot, but that program doesn't have MIDI functions (unfortunately!).

I use two instances of Kontakt 2 (standalone) per computer, each with a maximum of 40 instruments (instead of 64), which means I am using six MIDI-channels per computer just for the input in Kontakt 2. Of course, my sequencer and notation program send out MIDI over as many MIDI channels (3x the amount of Kontakt 2 instances that I use simultaneously for a project). I also use so-called 'Local Pipes' with MIDI over LAN (for example with Wordbuilder), which can be seen as 'local' MIDI channels. Finally, I have my controllers connected to one of the computers outside MOL.

The nice thing about my setup is that I don't really have a host computer. I can open my sequencer and notation program on every computer in the system (I can even 'system-link' two instances of Nuendo on separate computers) so that the other computers become K2 slaves for the moment. Unfortunately, I can't put my sample libraries on all four computers due to the license-restrictions.

I think I use a maximum of 20-25 MIDI-channels simultaneously, but it's usually less.
With FX-Teleport it's all VST, so that's a different story.

Jerome

[V o n h ö g e n]

Yeah! Prices have dropped dramatically.
My Netgear Switch was 200 bucks 3 years ago, and now it is 54 bucks.
Gigabit is the standard for networks now, not 100BT.
RJ45's are about 30 bucks for 50 ends.
(...)
LEX

Thanks, Lex!

Jerome

[Musiguy]

This makes no sense.

Why go with slower when you can have faster. Gigabit cards are 30-40 bucks.
8 Port Switch is 70 bucks.

Even MusicLab recommends Gigabit ethernet over 100baseT.

Being that I have used 100baseT for FX Teleport, I can tell you that when running heavy synths, 512 even caused dropouts. Only running at 1024 would I get less problems.
When I went Gigabit, I was able to take the latency down to 128-256 without dropouts.

Considering 4 years ago, Gigabit was alot more expensive I could understand.
But now, it is what is in every new machine.

It is like trying to save 20 bucks in buying an Audio card that only does 16bit.
Why not spend 20 bucks and be at full speed and compatible for future upgrades.

Plus, who really knows yet how PLAY is going to work over 100baseT with several slaves.
We may find that it bottlenecks, then you have to go through the motion of replacing your 100baseT ethernet cards.

Which in the long run is going to cost you more.

Buy cheap, Buy Twice!

LEX


buy cheap buy twice, is absolutely correct. we all have done it, but few get it. duh. i learned that when i was about 12, seriously. if you wait a little bit longer you can likely get the better one and then you are straight. or buy the lesser one and run the risk of having to either buy the better one anyway, or re-buy what you already bought. viscious circle.





While it may make no sense to LEX, it depends on the individual, their budget, the no. of plugin-ins they intend to use, etc. It would have been nice if you had stated your intent in the beginning – For instance running EW silver with a few plug-ins, as opposed to Platinum XP with dozens of them.

I only mentioned trying the 100Mb test first because many folks already have 10/100 equipment lying around and FX Teleport Tech support recommended this to me when I was initially testing the software a while back. And if an upgrade is necessary, then so be it. I didn’t advocate one or the other and never said that 100Mb is the “best way to go”, ipMIDI for instance works well over 100Mb since its UPD based and doesn’t have the over-head of TCP. Like I said it depends on your set up.

Edit: In my original post, I was looking at Cisco equipment as you specified. LEX was correct about the price of lower-end (but decent) products like Netgear and Linksys. Since Linksys is a division of Cisco, IMO their stuff is very reliable. Their 8 port Gigabit product is about $85.


Good Luck!

[ai6276]

While it may make no sense to LEX, it depends on the individual, their budget, the no. of plugin-ins they intend to use, etc. It would have been nice if you had stated your intent in the beginning – For instance running EW silver with a few plug-ins, as opposed to Platinum XP with dozens of them.

I only mentioned trying the 100Mb test first because many folks already have 10/100 equipment lying around and FX Teleport Tech support recommended this to me when I was initially testing the software a while back. And if an upgrade is necessary, then so be it. I didn’t advocate one or the other and never said that 100Mb is the “best way to go”, ipMIDI for instance works well over 100Mb since its UPD based and doesn’t have the over-head of TCP. Like I said it depends on your set up.

Edit: In my original post, I was looking at Cisco equipment as you specified. LEX was correct about the price of lower-end (but decent) products like Netgear and Linksys. Since Linksys is a division of Cisco, IMO their stuff is very reliable. Their 8 port Gigabit product is about $85.


Good Luck!


well it is for running EWQLSO Platinum & Cubase SX3 .... however, with only two computers is their a more effective way of syncing them? or even with two computers do you have to get the switch? i am going to get the switcvh anyway because i have more than 2 computers...but im just curious actually.......do you still need midi over lan to run two computers? i have a delta 1010 audio interface and card - what about 2 computers though :confused:

[Stefan Podell]

While it may make no sense to LEX, it depends on the individual, their budget, the no. of plugin-ins they intend to use, etc. It would have been nice if you had stated your intent in the beginning – For instance running EW silver with a few plug-ins, as opposed to Platinum XP with dozens of them.

I only mentioned trying the 100Mb test first because many folks already have 10/100 equipment lying around and FX Teleport Tech support recommended this to me when I was initially testing the software a while back. And if an upgrade is necessary, then so be it. I didn’t advocate one or the other and never said that 100Mb is the “best way to go”, ipMIDI for instance works well over 100Mb since its UPD based and doesn’t have the over-head of TCP. Like I said it depends on your set up.

Edit: In my original post, I was looking at Cisco equipment as you specified. LEX was correct about the price of lower-end (but decent) products like Netgear and Linksys. Since Linksys is a division of Cisco, IMO their stuff is very reliable. Their 8 port Gigabit product is about $85.


Good Luck!

I tried FXTeleport with 100Mb and 1Gb networks. 1Gb = good. 100Mb = no good. Even though the network traffic didn't fill up the 100Mb pipe, the CPU utilization was WAY higher in that configuration. I assume it was because the driver needed to be more involved more often, since things were taking longer to send. I don't know for sure.

And these are Intel NICs, so I assume the drivers are relatively good.

- Stefan

[LEX]

well it is for running EWQLSO Platinum & Cubase SX3 .... however, with only two computers is their a more effective way of syncing them? or even with two computers do you have to get the switch? i am going to get the switcvh anyway because i have more than 2 computers...but im just curious actually.......do you still need midi over lan to run two computers? i have a delta 1010 audio interface and card - what about 2 computers though :confused:
You do not need Midi over LAN if you are using FX Teleport.

A Switch will be better than a router and the router is going to try to tell the traffic when and how to go there.

With only 2 computers, you don't need a switch. All you need is a crossover network cable.
But with that, you will not be able to connect to anything but those 2 computers.
So if you use internet on one, now you will not be able to.

If you don't, then just a crossover will be fine. I suggest getting Cat6 cable over Cat5.

Like Stefan said, which I had forgotten, the CPU utilization over 100 will kill you.
It has been about 5 years since I went Gigabit so I forgot.

Sure you can test it at 100, but for performance you need Gigabit.

LEX