Some techniques I've learnt...

[dougb]

Hello all,

I havent posted here for a while (but have checked out whats going on) - thought I'd post a few things I've learnt about how to (or at least how I try!) to create an authentic sound - would be great if anyone else has some tips to add:

1) Always always use frequent tempi changes, however small, as these help give the impression of a live performance.
2) Always always (again) make use of the mod patches for added realism
3) When using the woodwinds when doubled with the strings, don't make them play too loud; they (normally) should just be "felt" and add to the colour of the sound.
4)....likewise, it's really tempting to go OTT with a souring violins melody, though this should be restrained and in balance with the rest of the string ensemble; use the winds to create the impression of a bigger sound.

Hmm, thats all i can think of for now. Any more tips would be great!

Cheers,

Doug

[bobbyem]

Hey Dougb, some good advice. I dont really spend much time tryin to make it sound real though. Im not sure way people write tempi instead of tempo, ive seen alot of people do it, maybe it is some italian word :-)

Although i first was blown away by the string sounds of the EWQL SO, now im finding it hard to use most of the long articualtions of the violin and cello. Havnt found any with bite to it. I almost always use the short strokes for rythm parts that sounds great, i found that spiccato is great because it give a very destinct attack, witch doesnt sound to sharp when playd with other stuff. If someone has a good suggestion for the long strokes that has more attack i would like that. This might sound like a noob q, but i guess i am.

Hehe

[George Bellas]

Im not sure way people write tempi instead of tempo, ive seen alot of people do it, maybe it is some italian word

The word 'tempi' is the plural form of tempo.



1) Use frequent tempi changes, however small, as these help give the impression of a live performance.
2) Make use of the mod patches for added realism.


Dougb, I think your first two tips are great... pretty much mandatory for realism, along with offsetting notes from the grid (if step inputting), not quantizing and using an abundance of expression curves.

[XGener8or]

The word 'tempi' is the plural form of tempo.
.

It's like the plural for Virus is actually Virii, but most people just say Viruses :)

[derako]

Although i first was blown away by the string sounds of the EWQL SO, now im finding it hard to use most of the long articualtions of the violin and cello. Havnt found any with bite to it. I almost always use the short strokes for rythm parts that sounds great, i found that spiccato is great because it give a very destinct attack, witch doesnt sound to sharp when playd with other stuff. If someone has a good suggestion for the long strokes that has more attack i would like that. This might sound like a noob q, but i guess i am.

Hehe

Hello. To answer your question about the strings. I know exactly what you mean by lack of bite. My solution to this is layering. When I compose or arrange for strings I usually break them up into parts. I write the midi data into a track and then split them up according to length. quarter notes, 8th notes, 16th, etc, are shorter either a marccato sample or spiccato while longer passages I use whatever string sample I need according the to piece. legato, just plain sus, vib.. If you want a long note with accented start combine the two. But layering is the key. I hope that helps

-Derek-

[George Bellas]

It's like the plural for Virus is actually Virii, but most people just say Viruses :)


To be concerned with what 'most people' say or do has never been my prerogative. It's the rare breed of super intellects that I am most fascinated with. I was simply clarifying the word in question. :p

[Dave Bourke]

"Tempos" is equally correct since the original Italian word is now well established in the English language. "Tempi" is the Italian plural.

Kind regards.

[Jeff Hayat]

It's like the plural for Virus is actually Virii, but most people just say Viruses :)

What about fish? Fishes? Fishii? :D

Seriously, good tips. Another good tip:

Listen and compare your sections/entire orchestra to a real well-recorded peice with good musicians. Try to mimick what is done on the recording - don't worry; you can't possibly "mimic it too closely".

Cheers.

[cosmodos]

"Tempos" would be correct, as, like David Bourke said, "tempo" is already establish in the English language, and thus the rules of English pluralization would apply to it, not the Italian rules. "Virus" can be either "virii" or "viruses;" it comes from Latin, not Italian, and both the singular and plural form have been established in English long enough to be in use.

"Fish," on the other hand, along with "fishes," are natively English words, as evolved from "fisc" and "fisces," pronounced identically to their modern counterparts. Old English, while significantly different from Modern English, is not considered a separate language; the English language has been spoken continuously for the past 1500 years. Think of Shakespeare: yeah, he spoke a peculiar form of English, but it's still the same language. The same idea applies to Old English: it's just old and weird. Of course, English "fisc" is related to Latin "piscis," which has resulted in Italian "pesce" and Spanish "pescado." Both English and Latin (as well as all other Romance and Germanic languages) ultimately derive from the Indo-European branch of languages, so while they seem to have taken words from each other and merely modified them, in truth, the words are much older than either language and merely evolved differently into their modern forms. As a further example of their similarities, take English "father" and "mother" (Old English "fæder" and "módor" or "móðor"), which are cognate to Latin "pater" and "mater." Their similarities are obvious. Taking a further look at "father" and "pater" and comparing them to the relation seen between "fish" ("fisc") and "piscis," it should be easy to draw to the conclusion that in most Latin-English cognates, Latin "p" became English "f," and while Latin "c" remained "c" in English, at the time of Old English, the combination "sc" was pronounced identically to modern "sh."

[Jeff Hayat]

"Tempos" would be correct, as, like David Bourke said, "tempo" is already establish in the English language, and thus the rules of English pluralization would apply to it, not the Italian rules. "Virus" can be either "virii" or "viruses;" it comes from Latin, not Italian, and both the singular and plural form have been established in English long enough to be in use.

"Fish," on the other hand, along with "fishes," are natively English words, as evolved from "fisc" and "fisces," pronounced identically to their modern counterparts. Old English, while significantly different from Modern English, is not considered a separate language; the English language has been spoken continuously for the past 1500 years. Think of Shakespeare: yeah, he spoke a peculiar form of English, but it's still the same language. The same idea applies to Old English: it's just old and weird. Of course, English "fisc" is related to Latin "piscis," which has resulted in Italian "pesce" and Spanish "pescado." Both English and Latin (as well as all other Romance and Germanic languages) ultimately derive from the Indo-European branch of languages, so while they seem to have taken words from each other and merely modified them, in truth, the words are much older than either language and merely evolved differently into their modern forms. As a further example of their similarities, take English "father" and "mother" (Old English "fæder" and "módor" or "móðor"), which are cognate to Latin "pater" and "mater." Their similarities are obvious. Taking a further look at "father" and "pater" and comparing them to the relation seen between "fish" ("fisc") and "piscis," it should be easy to draw to the conclusion that in most Latin-English cognates, Latin "p" became English "f," and while Latin "c" remained "c" in English, at the time of Old English, the combination "sc" was pronounced identically to modern "sh."


Allright, smart man - what's the singular for feces? :confused:

[nickysnd]

Cool hints, thanks! My two cents:

Listen to a similar recorded live performance and try to make your mix's performance feel as close as possible to the feel of that recording, by whatever means you can imagine. IME, there are no general rules, everything is project-specific.

As for tempo/tempi - it is like in timpano/timpani.

[Randall Flagg]

"Tempos" is equally correct since the original Italian word is now well established in the English language. "Tempi" is the Italian plural.

Kind regards.

That is true, I know little bits of Italian ,and Tempi is an intalian plural, not an english one.

[mhuang]

cool thread hope more ppl share their tips.

here's mine:

when ending a string phrase, I like to use a little bit of crescendo to add some realism.

[cosmodos]

Allright, smart man - what's the singular for feces? :confused:

There isn't one, nor is there a circumstance in which you would use it. "Feces" (alternately "faeces" or "fæces") comes from the Latin word "fæcés," which is the plural form of Latin "fæx." While "feces" entered the English language, and is now in regular use, "fæx" never entered the language, and thus we are stuck with a plural noun with no singular form.

Peculiar enough, while Latin "fæx" never entered English, there already was and is a "fax" (alternately "feax" or "fæx" in Old English) present in the English language. Of course, the English "fax" is completely native (along with having cognates in most other Germanic languages) and unrelated to the Latin homonym, nor is it related to modern "fax" (which is a shortening of Latin "facsimile"). English "fax" means "hair" or "mane," and a popular occurence of it appears in the Lord of the Rings, in the name "Shadowfax," Theoden's (and eventually Gandalf the White's) horse.

[nickysnd]

Cool explanations, cosmodos, I feel kind of enlightened. Now I understand your avatar, as coming from the ancient Greek kosmos - which refers to the order of things. It also refers to cosmetics, which is a sort of a make-up, as in making-up (things). :rolleyes:

[cosmodos]

Actually, the name "Cosmodos" is a comicbook character I made up when I was 11. No linguistical backing whatsoever. But nice explanation!

[Jonathan Kranz]

As for tempo/tempi - it is like in timpano/timpani.

Or Cello/Celli !:)

[Jeff Hayat]

There isn't one, nor is there a circumstance in which you would use it. "Feces" (alternately "faeces" or "fæces") comes from the Latin word "fæcés," which is the plural form of Latin "fæx." While "feces" entered the English language, and is now in regular use, "fæx" never entered the language, and thus we are stuck with a plural noun with no singular form.

Peculiar enough, while Latin "fæx" never entered English, there already was and is a "fax" (alternately "feax" or "fæx" in Old English) present in the English language. Of course, the English "fax" is completely native (along with having cognates in most other Germanic languages) and unrelated to the Latin homonym, nor is it related to modern "fax" (which is a shortening of Latin "facsimile"). English "fax" means "hair" or "mane," and a popular occurence of it appears in the Lord of the Rings, in the name "Shadowfax," Theoden's (and eventually Gandalf the White's) horse.

Ok, I'm impressed.

[nickysnd]

No linguistical backing whatsoever. But nice explanation!
Thanks, but it doesn't even compare with your explanation on Theoden's Shadowfeces. :D

[Zphyr]

Why don't some of the EWQL demo song writers come out and share. After all, i bought EWQL online because of those tracks and have never been able to get that sound!
One of the songwriters should have an entire and elaborate thread on how he got his composition to sound as cool as that.

[bobbyem]

Sounds like a good idea, but i think i learn more and more about orchestration every time i start a new project using EWQL so. But there are some things im finding very hard to get down. The best thing and the most interesting thing ive done recently is finding the relationships instrument combos have, it helps alot when im in a jam to try new combinations. Like pizz violin and glock, very cartoony etc. And how to cheat the human ear.
But a guide of some sort would be fun, step by step. Although i think some of the fun is trail and error. But when these apps are so expessive a guide might lore more buyers.

[Zphyr]

VIVA!!

[Stevewatson1972]

Hello. To answer your question about the strings. I know exactly what you mean by lack of bite. My solution to this is layering. When I compose or arrange for strings I usually break them up into parts. I write the midi data into a track and then split them up according to length. quarter notes, 8th notes, 16th, etc, are shorter either a marccato sample or spiccato while longer passages I use whatever string sample I need according the to piece. legato, just plain sus, vib.. If you want a long note with accented start combine the two. But layering is the key. I hope that helps

-Derek-


Hi there

Does anyone know if it's possible to split a cubase midi track in this way? I.e. split a track which is a mixture of note lengths into several with similar note lengths?

thanks
Steve

[nikolas]

The only way I can think of is to copy paste the midi track to however many different note lengths you have, and start deleting the appropriate ones from each track. No other way that I know off

[Wolfy]

Cool hints, thanks! My two cents:

Listen to a similar recorded live performance and try to make your mix's performance feel as close as possible to the feel of that recording, by whatever means you can imagine. IME, there are no general rules, everything is project-specific.




no more no less, well said Lad.

[Zphyr]

Something which i haven't seen mentioned enough around here is the use of EQ..
I know allot of peeps say they don't need to, or hardly ever use it on this library...But TRUST ME!! Try it and see this library spring to life!
I think i actually found the secret that the demo-writers have been keeping from us all this time. Good attention to EQ and an amazing Convo preset on the "C" mic-setups.
Slight compression and clever use of group-bussing.
:cool:

[nikolas]

I know allot of peeps say they don't need to, or hardly ever use it on this library...But TRUST ME!! Try it and see this library spring to life!
While I do believe that some EQ in the end product could work miracles (as my tracks sometimes end up a tad muddy), still how can I trust you when I've not heard YOUR music!

GO AND POST YOUR MUSIC! :D

NOW! :D

:D

VIVA!

[rimskykorsakov]

Something which i haven't seen mentioned enough around here is the use of EQ..



Because using EQ's always depends on the particular arrangement you're working on. You know that .

... compression ...

AND : Using COMPRESSION on Orchestral Stuff is forbidden !!!! FOORRBBIDDDEENN !

Have a look here for some additional hints concerning Platinum (http://soundsonline-forums.com/showpost.php?p=75086&postcount=5)

- Gerd

[Zphyr]

- Using compression or not is a personal taste issue, so i fully agree when you say its something that should never have to happen.
- The EQ though hmmm...I don't want to open this can of worms again, but lets just say that I am now satisfied with the way my library sounds, with the careful use of EQ on my strings (Not on brass or perc yet...)

Nikolas> Its coming! ;)

[luima]

Hi Doug,

First of all welcome to the forum being your first post.

I should substitute all the advices you give by only one:

Play and record every phrase of the instrument and articulation of your piece in a sensitive keyboard, in one of the several performances you will hear the sound that looks like you wanted it to feel like, keep that record in the sequencer and study it carefully, what is the velocity, the tempo and the position of every note in the phrase, then go for another, and so on.

That does not mean to play the entire orchestral score in your midi controller but you can see how some instruments need to be advanced some ticks (like the tuba) and that some "mordentes or grace notes" are really believable in midi writing.

I dont believe in general rules, as long as every composer wants to express different feels and sounds.

Cheers
Luis

[Sonic Ether]

Why don't some of the EWQL demo song writers come out and share. After all, i bought EWQL online because of those tracks and have never been able to get that sound!
One of the songwriters should have an entire and elaborate thread on how he got his composition to sound as cool as that.

Hmm, I actually disagree. *cringe* Don't kill me! Though for immediate satisfaction, it'd be great to have some sort of ultra EWQLSO tutorial. I think that the reason that those demos sound so great is because the composers spent countless hours developing their own techniques to a realistic mockup. If they were just handed the ultimate strategies and tools when they weren't ready to handle them, I'm positive that they'd be nowhere near where they are now. Unfortunately there are no easy ways or shortcuts to music composition, as much as we like to belive so.

And I'm totally not trying to 1-up you (I had a big misunderstanding the last disagreement I posted, EEK!). I'm just trying to have a healthy discussion, I'm sure you can appreciate that. The only thing that fixes unexperience, or n00bishness, is time. I think I've learned that the hard way... STORY TIME!

So, I used to make alot of Trance and other electronic genres of music, it was my main style, and I loved it. I was a newbie, and for a long time I wondered how people like Silexz and Ferry Corsten made such great music! For a while (of course I was 13 then, so I was immature) I just strived to get a better computer. More ram! Faster processor! Better audio card! More expensive VSTi! I guess you could say it "worked", but it was fake sound that I had acquired. My music had gotten "better" (not by much) because my tools improved, not me.
I guess I should thank the lord, becase my "gotta get really good and make lots of good music" computer crashed. Yup, I was extremely sad for a while, but I ended up setting up my old computer, which was at that time roughly four years old. OLD computer.
For about a year, I was forced to use the bare minimum when it came to synths and VSTi. I hated it, I had to find unique ways of making simple sounds sound very complicated and awesome. I wasn't good at it at first, of course, but I believe that this technical setback saved my musical career (I guess you could call it a career, but I'm still only 17 at my mother's house, hehe).
I learned that there is no such thing as a shortcut. Shortcuts will only decieve you into thinking that they worked, and wound you permanently. Ever since then, I don't look at tutorials or guides to music. I discover my own stregnths, and develop my own skills, and now I can make nearly any synth sound imaginable from scratch (which I can thank no one but myself for my hard work). It really pays off to tough it through.

How'd you like my immature, ill-comprised story? I know, it's no Oddysey, but hey, I learned from it and I hope someone reads this and agrees with me. Now back to what I was saying before, that is why I don't think that experts should just give away their secrets, for their own sake, and us newbies'. :D

[nikolas]

I do agree with the above posted :D See? Easy to have a healthy discussion.

I would like to add to the "list" of tips by this mainly:

IMHO you need to know orchestration and also know what the samples can/can't do and use that. A lot, I mean A LOT of the tracks I hear in here, are lacking from the musical point of view. So even if one succeeds in creating realistic mock-ups, the score is not up to the task.

As for the demos and what zphyr keeps posting and posting, asking for more all the time. I am indeed questioned... :confused:

Indeed at some points it is true that the search alone will help mature, but I don't really see the point in this case. Experience is needed, not maturity. Still, was I the ultimate master of EW I wouldn't give away my secrets. Would you Zphyr? ;) After all I am STILL waiting for your music. (and btw, this about your music, is light hearted and mostly joking, although I am curious. It's just that we met this way and I like keeping it up :D :D :D)

[djoni]

Hi,
I am new in this forum. I have been browsing around and found interesting treads including some good tips on how to improve ones work with ewqlso.

I use EWQLSO for most of my work that requires orchestral sounds. I have to say that I do like it a lot. I don´t a expect it to sound 99% like a real orchestra. That´s at least my goal. Although I want it to sound very symphonic and with a fair amount of realism.

I am happy with some of the results I got. But, I have to say that I have heard much better results from the stuff users post in this and other forums.
In a lot cases, although lacking of compositional skills, they do sound very good.

I wonder if you guys have traded projects or at least real EWQLSO setups for specific songs or sections of songs.

I think this would help everyone´s learning curve. Sometimes I spend hours and hours just to get the right samples for a specific phrase. Sometimes I fail at all to achieve my objective.
By analyzing other peoples projects we could learn about specific technics.

Kind regards

j

[The Idiot]

Djoni

I do agree with you, sharing even just parts of unfinished projects could be an extremely powerful learning kit! It could be added as one of the discussion topics on the main page "Study examples". I agree with earlier posters saying that we bought the libraries because of the sound we hear on the webpage, but then when you use it at home you realise that a lot of fixing is needed to reach that sound and nobody wants to help ya on specific issues ....

[Sonic Ether]

I have SO Silver XP Pro, and I have to say that overall (right now, somtimes my moods change about it) I am quite disappointed with it. Somtimes I want a phrase with an oboe, but I can't have my phrase because the oboe sustain patch sounds horrible. When samples uninspire you, you know that they're bad. Maybe it's time for an upgrade; those transition samples in VSL are really appealing to me, especially with solo instruments. I think it's time for EW to jump on the bandwagon and start implementing transition samples.

It probably doesn't help that Silver's samples are stretched, and not chromatically sampled. At this point I'm not sure if my songs are not sounding convincing becase of my lack of skill, or my lack of samples. This is really frustrating to me, and I'd like to hear what other silver users can do! I know that most people have either Gold or Platnium, and most of the Silver examples aren't really silver, they're just SO.

[Ranger]

I found the same issues also time to time difficult to pull out instruments in the mix since I upgraded to Platinum I have no more problems I use the silver time to time for effects when I layer instruments mostly with non EW products

[guy theaker]

Sonic ether - have a listen to the first 3 tracks here

http://www.guytheaker.com/page3.html

Obviously, the first one is Silver XP Pro, but the other 2 were done with plain silver.

[tone]

Hi,

I'm a newbie, just signed on in fact.

I certainly agree that the demos you hear on line, to sell the product, be it the Platinum, gold or silver version of this library, are astoundingly effective and who knows what lengths it took to achieve these tracks, but at the end of the day, it's to sell the product and correct me if I'm wrong but most of those compositions were done with either the Platinum or Gold version. If I wanted to sell my product to the world I'd certainly make sure it sounded brilliant I'd even cheat if I thought I could get away with it, (not saying Eastwest cheated).

I supply music of this kind to TV companies and library companies and to tell you the truth to get as close as possible to the real thing I mix my samples up I'm talking Q. L. orchestra, VSL, Roland, Miroslav plus my own samples and others. If you're using just one kind there's not enough room for variation and I know these guys have to "Hard sell" there gear, competition is looming, have a listen to "Broadway Big Band" by Soni Vox M1 I've never heard such realism from a library sample before.

Don't get me wrong, I really love what East west have created and I'll always be dipping into there libraries for inspiration but as a composer you really need to look at the big picture and see whats out there and what else works.

Cheers :D