A question regarding reverb

[dexter]

Hi,

I'm using EWQLSO Gold, and I've been wondering how you guys go about when applying reverb to different instruments. Most of the sounds have the ambience "recorded" so to speak, but some of them are close miked. What do you do with these sounds, do you use the built in reverb to make them fit into the soundscape with the rest of the ensemble, and if so wich preset do you prefer? I could also see using a third part reverb for better sound quality, anyone been doing that?

It would be nice to get some advice from you.

[Sonic Ether]

I use Silver Edition, so I have to reverb my whole orchestra, because the ambience sounds are not included in Silver edition, as you all probably know. I find that most digital reverbs just don't cut it, and I have resorted to using a freeware convolution reverb vst. It's called SIR, and you can download it here: http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.html

Of course you'll need some impulses, and you can find some great ones here: http://www.echochamber.ch/
Or you can go over to Voxengo.com and get their Impulse Modeller, so you can create your own acoustic spaces (that's what I've done).

I find that the authenticity and accuracy of convolution reverb works very well to compliment the instrument's sound.

[Quoid]

I use mostly F mic positions and also apply convolution verb, after I have rendered each track to audio, on every orchestral instrument. I use Altiverb 6.

Kontakt2 has a great convolution bundled with the software, only problem there is you must apply the reverb before rendering, interestingly enough I know some very successful media composers who apply reverb before rendering and it works for them, but usually that is a no no.

When working with a Close mic position, or an instrument from a different library that does not contain the same "ambience" inthe samples as a EWQLSO F mic position has, I do several things to blend them together seamlessly. I will either apply a small amount a k2's convolution reverb and try to match the ambience in the f mic, or wait until the track is audio than apply more convolution reverb than I do to the F mics, once again trying to match the depth and ambience of the F mics, also to increase depth sometimes I will throw a filter on the track and if the sample was from a different library, I will also utilize a stereo imager, this is necessary for some other big name sample library producers, as they did not record their instruments positioned in the normal orchestral setting and some samples with be dramatically wide and/or shoot from L to R, in short I narrow the image and position it accordingly.

[Sonic Ether]

I know some very successful media composers who apply reverb before rendering and it works for them, but usually that is a no no.

Why is this a no-no?

[Quoid]

Some people have different reasons, the reason I am not fully comfortable with adding -major- effects on MIDI before I render is this:

Once the effect(s) is/are applied and the track is rendered to audio, it is very much more time consuming and tedious to remove the effect(s), or change various parameters on the effect(s) rather than having the effect applied to an audio channel where abouts you have freedom to change manipulate the effect(s) until the final mixdown; simply put.

But I know many people who have spent much time figuring out what effect they are willing to use before the audio rendering of the track(s), and have no problem doing this before the fact.

I guess it is just boils down to a matter of preference.

[Sonic Ether]

Quoid, I see what you mean. Most of the time I don't bounce or anything, until everything is complete and then I only have to do a final render. I know this is probably a newbie-esque practice, and I'm wondering how I would evolve from that. I just hate not having everything right in front of me.

However, in the case of adding reverb/mixing, I can see how bouncing raw instruments to seperate tracks and then mixing them (especially when working with an orchestra) would be benificiary. I just don't see how people can bounce bits and pieces before the actual composing aspect of a song is done.

By the way, are those S and F mics as good as they appear to be? Everyone seems to like them, but I'm just wondering what kind of sound quality and practicality they've got. I have Silver and Silver XP Pro, and I'm deciding on whether I should work my way up to Platnium XP Pro or switch to Vienna Symphonic Library.

[Quoid]

............ I just hate not having everything right in front of me.........
.............. I just don't see how people can bounce bits and pieces before the actual composing aspect of a song is done............By the way, are those S and F mics as good as they appear to be? Everyone seems to like them, but I'm just wondering what kind of sound quality and practicality they've got. I have Silver and Silver XP Pro, and I'm deciding on whether I should work my way up to Platinum XP Pro or switch to Vienna Symphonic Library.

I hear you on the first part of your response. Sometimes in order to retain a sort of creative flow, adding FX to a patch in K2(for me at least) is necessary.

On the second part, most people I talk to who, like, me, add 'verb after the audio render, wait until the whole composition is done, and since it is only verb and a lot of the time you are trying to convince the listener the music is coming from an actual orchestral hall, where you will have static positioning, I pretty much know exactly what parameters to set on my reverb plug-in and not much creative energy goes into setting the verb (after some initial experimenting when purchasing the reverb, I made my own presets and use them in most traditional pieces).

On the third, I only use F mics for EWQLSO samples (than again I only have the Gold Bundle so I do not have many options; there are afew S and C postions availibel for very few samples, but I tend not to use them), but they are not the only libraries I own.

[XGener8or]

I gotta start learning how to use IR. I always just use the builtin reverb in the Kompakt player, set it to Grand Hall for everything and I like the sound. few times I tried with an IR reverb added later but it sounded horrible, like someone had locked the orchestra in a tin box.

[Vatroslav]

When it comes ti EWQLSO, I hardly ever do any additional processing. With Platinum and Decca setup and well-programmed RTs, there is no need. When auditioning individual instruments, the cutoff times of RTs may seem a bit short, but when blended with all the other sections, the default RT time is just on the button.

Using only C mic positions (with Platinum) and turning RTs off, on the other hand, can come in handy if you're running Platinum or Gold on a low-performing machine as it saves precious computing power, but group channel processing of an entire orchestra with only one IR (which is likely to happen with a slow machine) will hardly give any realistic results.

On the other hand, IRs can come across as much more realistic in a musical piece with great dynamically variability as it will preserve the natural form of a reverb (even though SO's RTs are well programmed to adjust to waveform's amplitude), and this especially goes for sequencer automation which many often use with audio tracks instead of MIDI CCs for expression, (de)crescendos etc.

Other libs like Philharmonik or PSCCC have very unrealistic reverbs no matter how much tweaking you do to them, and I always find myself turning them off and processing through Altiverb. Even though there is still some ambience left (which is understandable), it doesn't effect the overall performance of the IR enough to be noticable.

Blending different libs, one with built-in RTs and the other with RTs turned off and processed with an IR, needs a lot of attention, and usually requires the latter to be adjusted to the former. But you can get great results once you hit it right with the room size and reverb time.

Also, IRs are often obligatory when it comes to problems with proximities, and in those cases turning off RTs has to be done no matter how good they behave (this is often the case with SO Gold with its one mic position).

[kstevege]

I use mostly F mic positions and also apply convolution verb, after I have rendered each track to audio, on every orchestral instrument. I use Altiverb 6.

Kontakt2 has a great convolution bundled with the software, only problem there is you must apply the reverb before rendering, interestingly enough I know some very successful media composers who apply reverb before rendering and it works for them, but usually that is a no no.




Is there a noticable difference applying reverb AFTER you bounce to audio or are you doing that to just to save CPU power? Is there any sonic difference at all mixing in VST mode versus bouncing first then mixing? In a lot of my projects I get away with not even having to bounce to audio and I mix right in Cubase using the VST audio channels and apply automation at that level prior to exporting the project. Please let me know if I am doing sopmething wrong or backwards here.


Also, why do you believe applying reverb before rendering is a no no? ( I assume by rendering you mean bouincing the midi VST tracks to audio?)

[nikolas]

I can only speak for me, who bounce much more than once to get all the audio and mixing done. Applying reverb beforehand would be disasterous in my case. The project (in my case) is not finished until mixed in audio. with the reverb already there, I can't hear right, or I can't even mix right... Plus I can't remove it...

[Vatroslav]

Is there a noticable difference applying reverb AFTER you bounce to audio or are you doing that to just to save CPU power? Is there any sonic difference at all mixing in VST mode versus bouncing first then mixing? In a lot of my projects I get away with not even having to bounce to audio and I mix right in Cubase using the VST audio channels and apply automation at that level prior to exporting the project. Please let me know if I am doing sopmething wrong or backwards here.


Also, why do you believe applying reverb before rendering is a no no? ( I assume by rendering you mean bouincing the midi VST tracks to audio?)
MIDI or audio, it doesn't matter. In a perfect world, only those of us who for some reason don't like MIDI would be using audio.

A lot of orchestral composers I know bounce to audio only for final mixdowns and their mixes sound perfect. Needless to say, they don't use much convultion reverb (for that to go you'd need a network of high-end machines like those in machine rooms of professional studios).

It all depends on how complex your work is and how far you can push your computer.