Machine Gun Elimination with Custom EWQLSO Gold

[TheoKrueger]

Hi,

First of all, i hope this post is not taken in a negative way since it only shows how to make a wonderful library better and does not intend the opposite in any way.

No matter how beautiful EWQLSO GOLD sounds, we are all aware of the dreaded "Machine Gun Effect" that limits our compositions, our inspiration and makes repetitive passages sound so mechanic and a "giveaway", that we usually don't have repetitive passages at all in our orchestral mock-ups or avoid them. It is a common thing in all libraries.

The custom programming below shows how to eliminate the Machine Gun effect with beautiful and alive results. It works with -all- staccato ( Flute, Clarinet, Brass, Strings, Harp, Mallets etc) and one shot articulations (Pizzicato etc).
At the bottom of the page is a link to a 128 Kb mp3 which has 4 minutes of A versus B examples.
A is for the "custom" samples that shows how the Machine gun is eliminated and B is the original EWQLSO Samples.
All parts have been played at one velocity level except the strings to make a fair comparison.

This is how its done in Kontakt 2:

a) Find a staccato instrument for the test.
b) Copy the original group 4 times.
c) Move the first copy 1 semitone up, 2nd copy 2 semitones up. 3rd Copy 1 semitone down, 4th copy 2 semitones down. You can make more groups, but then you have quality loss and its not really worth it.
d) Set "edit all groups" in Kontakt ON.
e) Select "Groups start options -> Random"

NEW: Scott Cairns has made the pictures with all the steps into a nice PDF which you can get from here: http://www.scottcairns.com/EWQLSO-Random-Stacc-Notes.pdf
Thanks Scott!

Now, instead of playing the same sample everytime, each time you hit a key repetitively, there will be a random choice of 5 samples to play, thus, eliminating the "machine gun" effect.
Also, this does not affect your RAM usage since it loads the same samples and not new, unique ones.

MP3 : Download for registered members or STREAM for un-registered. If someone wants to host a higher quality MP3 this on their own server, please let me know.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/journeyofsols_music.htm

This the order of comparisons in the MP3:

Cello Pizz
18 V marc Short
4 TP Stac
Xylophone
18 Violins Pizz
Picolo Stacs
Orchestral CHimes
Harp
Glocken
French Horn Staccatos
Flute Staccatos
Clarinet Staccatos
Small Repetitive A B Orchestration Comparison - One
Small Repetitive A B Orchestration Comparison - Two

This works with sustain instruments as well, but the downside is that when you overstretch samples, their harmonic content, noise, natural ambience etc. gets transposed as well giving bad results. And, when you play a big sustain, its hard to remember the attack of the first note anyway.

I hope you find this helpful. Please let me know what you think!
Theo

[Drew Buchan]

That is quite amazing .... it sounds totally realistic ....

the instructions sound quite simple, but how long does it take to set up ....

I've VSL Solo Strings, but never ever bothered with the repetition tool, since it is just too much bother to set up ..... and I think very few people do ....

To slightly off-topic .... can GigaStudio do anything like this ?
thanks for sharing


This technique, to my ears, if replicable in Gigastudio, could make the VSL repetition tool, and a collosal amount of samples totally redundant.

[TheoKrueger]

Hey Drew, i am glad you liked it!

To program this in Kontakt 2 is very easy and fast. A patch takes 1.5 minutes to make from scratch once you learn the process.

If Giga studio has Round Robin and Random sample playback, it definitely can do this. I personally have no idea how to program it. It should be same way: Copy the main group, transpose it, set Group Start to random.

I also wanted to add that this works great in EWQLSO Gold because GOLD has only 1 mic position. If you try doing it in EWQLSO Platinum, the different mic patches will be playing different samples. Two ways to eliminate this: Either copy the samples from all the different Mics to One group and then copy that group around. OR, instead of using Random, you can use Round Robin ( 1-2-3-4-5 etc.)

[Drew Buchan]

At the risk of delaying pro even further .... perhaps EWQL could create few programs with this already set up in Pro, or the next update to the GOLD instruments ...... NOT because I am too lazy to learn or to do it myself, but because it would be a phenominal selling point ..... Easier and more flexible repetition than VSL, but with a "sliver of a fraction" of the samples and NO performance tool.


(I'm not anti-VSL, but do think the reptition samples represent a hugely disproportionate amount of storage space compared to their usefulness and ease of use .... (and contribution to costs perhaps).

[TheoKrueger]

Yes, that would be wonderful :)

The downside is the quality loss of the individual instruments due to transposing. But its so subtle for fast instruments that you won't even notice and its worth it.

An idea that has been spinning around my head is also this:

Have some -very small- in length string section samples performed very soft. Around 10 of them for each note playing random. That way you can have strings tremolo at any speed you wish.

A thing to make that even better would be getting samples from 6 player sections at a time (for the 18 violins as an example) and having those three samples beeing played together. Even more randomness and realism :)

[KevinKauai]

So once you perform this transformation on a particular staccato instrument, you could save it with (say) "RR" somewhere in the name and load it forever more, right?

If this has as little downside as I've heard in the examples, I think we should find a prize for you, Theo!

Terrific! KevinKauai

[sebaa241]

this deserves a "sticky". fantastic job

[tchoyy]

It's awesome.

But... I'm with EWQLSO Silver and kompakt, can I apply this ?
What you said doesn't seem to work with kompakt, I understood nothing of your explanations.
What about a video demo ? :D (like toddk)
It would be wonderful ! or screenshots ?

[Drew Buchan]

Okay a bit OT ... but Theo's idea is just too good to not try with GS also.

.... I spent the last 2 hours scanning the Giga Editor manual
You can create Random and Round Robin Dimensions.
Currently trying to figure out how to retune the same set of samples for each dimension.

I think it can be achieved .... will try it out tonight.

[sirbellog]

Thanks Theo,
this is something I have done a few months ago with all my converted-to-Halion libraries, thank to its "alternate feature".
But with Kontakt, whose interface is not so comfortable to me, i was at a loss on how to do this. Maybe your Kontakt specific instructions will help, I'll try it this week-end.
In fact, this is not really a "new" trick, I learnt it myself more than one year ago, from a forum (I guess it was Steinberg's), from someone who made "customized" libraries.
But it is always useful to refresh memory and make other users aware of those tricks.
Personnaly, I limit myself to 3 groups, and only with chromatically sampled libraries : one at original pitch, one +1 half toine, one -1 half tone, which imo anfd to my ears is the best compromise between tone quality and having enough variations of strikes at disposal.
In the beginnings, I had tried this method with Advanced orchestra, but the 3rd interval sampling made it not too convincing.

[Philo]

Great tips!! I actually tried to set this up in the EXS24 with other librarys, but it did'nt sound as good as I thought. The EXS really does'nt have the same random/round robin features.

Do you think It would be possible to set it up in Kontakt 1.5 as well?

Philo

[TheoKrueger]

Thanks for the feedback!

This can work in Kompakt Player after you have made the patches with Kontakt and dragged them in the EWQLSO folders. I am not sure if the Kompakt player can play Kontakt 2 files though.

It works the same in 1.5.3 but the editor is a bit harder to use for this sort of stuff.

No idea how to do a video demo. Pictures yeap!

"So once you perform this transformation on a particular staccato instrument, you could save it with (say) "RR" somewhere in the name and load it forever more, right?"

Master Kevin, thats the way :)

Drew: good luck with it!

SirBellog i agree, 5 groups is a bit overkill for some instruments. For the harp and glocken i used only 3.

[TheoKrueger]

The other server freaked out, here are the files on new server ( Thanks to Alan Lastufka for offering the bandwidth and space ) :

http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step1.JPG
http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step2.JPG
http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step3.JPG
http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step4.JPG
http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step5.JPG
http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step6.JPG
http://fallofautumn.com/Theo/Step7.JPG

[lux]

I'm for sticky and prize too

[Scott Cairns]

Here's a link to Theo's script as a PDF; http://www.scottcairns.com/EWQLSO-Random-Stacc-Notes.pdf

Note: Step 7 is currently missing and will be added tomorrow morning. (Aussie time!) :)

[christianb]

Screw the prize, give the kid a job. He's australian... you can pay him in Vegemite and Fosters.

cb

[sebaa241]

I too remember trying this type of stuff before with the old advanced orchestra library. but it didn't sound that great. However after trying it now with Kontakt I must say that this works very well indeed with ewqlso gold.

[ben91082]

a) Find a staccato instrument for the test.
b) Delete the release groups.
c) Copy the original group 4 times.
d) Move the first copy 1 semitone up, 2nd copy 2 semitones up. 3rd Copy 1 semitone down, 4th copy 2 semitones down. You can make more groups, but then you have quality loss and its not really worth it.
e) Set "edit all groups" in Kontakt ON.
f) Select "Groups start options -> Random"



I'm not sure I understand why the release groups need deleting. Could someone possibly explain why? Also, there didn't seem to be any reference to this step in the pdf.

Great technique though! Very generous of you to share Theo.

[TheoKrueger]

Regarding "Delete the release groups"

I apologise you are right, i usually delete them to save Ram and be able to load more things so i have it as common practise. My mistake posting that was that all the Staccato and one-shot instruments don't even have releases anyway!

Thanks for pointing that out. Releases are no harm at all actually as long as you don't copy the releases as well (Speaking of sustains and articulations that use them)

Cheers

[Stefan Podell]

Quite amazing! Thanks!

It seems to me that if you do this with solo instruments and don't change the group start to random, you get an "ensemble builder." Though as you said, stretching the sustained patches might not be too great sounding.

- Stefan

[GORILLA]

WOW...pretty cool indeed! This seems like a feature my D.F.H.S. has in it's sampler!!!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!!! :D

[Stefan Podell]

I was just playing with this in a keyswitched patch and it seems that the randomness spreads out events, separately from the keyswitch. For example, I was working on STP C0-D0, and did the sustained part. Worked great. (:)) Next I went to the staccato part, and *both* stopped working. Notes don't play half the time, and neither do the groups light up when played. So I'm assuming that the random function is now generating numbers between 1 and 10. Bummer!

Still way cool, though. Maybe NI would consider the keyswitch problem a bug :p

- Stefan

[CeXzer]

Amazing, but can't something be done about this for those of us with the bundled version of kompakt, please?
This is something which really bugs me, since repetitive short runs need to be orchestrated as tremolos, since real players can't play them otherwise, however you get the machinegun if you orchestrate them properly, but this would save the day.

[SergeD]

Theo,

Reminds me something !

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25400&highlight

Here is a Cal version of your original experimentations. Poor People like me having only Kompakt and using Sonar or HomeStudio should appreciate this program.

;; --------------------------------------------

;; Pitch_RANDOM.CAL, by Serge Daigneault 2005
;; Insert random pitch

(do
(dword setting 4) ; Or whatever you want
(int NewPitch 0)
(int OldPitch 0)
(int Channel 0)

(do
(forEachEvent
(do
(if (== Event.Kind NOTE)
(do
(= NewPitch OldPitch)
(= Channel Event.Chan)

; Randomize pitch.

(while (== NewPitch OldPitch)
(= NewPitch (* 20 (random (* -1 setting) setting))) ; Could be other than 20
)
(insert (- Event.Time 1) Channel WHEEL NewPitch) ; Random wheel
(= OldPitch NewPitch)
))
))
(insert Event.Time Channel WHEEL 0) ; Last note, Wheel Reset
)
)
;; --------------------------------------------

Sorry Tabs are not included in this thread :(

SergeD

[KevinKauai]

Uh. Are you saying that a SCRIPT would do this, SergeD?

I started into ScottCairns illustrated directions and got as far (not very!) as "Hit the same key 20 times" when it was "what key?" since no "key" had been mentioned before? Key? Is this a button? One of the representational keys on the kyboard? A real keyboard key? Huh?

I have a suggestion: Perhaps those interested can combine forces to build the stacato patches (for the included VSL?) in a standard way and then post them someplace.

However, if a SCRIPT will do the same thing, it would be nice to evaluate if there are performance or RAM trade-offs and go for whichever route is simplest and most efficiient.

I think Theo has done a wonderful proof-of-concept. Now, we need an implementation plan that works without the extensive individual labor that the directions would seem to involve.

my $0.02 ... KevinKauai

[AndyFinkenstadt]

So now that we are on our own forums here, what do you think of user-supplied programs and tools that support EWQLSO on the domain EWQLSO.com (which I, at the moment, own)?

[KevinKauai]

Andy, I think a user-controlled sharing area would be brilliant!

my $0.02 ... KevinKauai

[SergeD]

Are you saying that a SCRIPT would do this, SergeD?


Kevin,

Are semitones in Kontakt and pitch bend rely to the same tuning mechanism. somebody could confirm. Also the demand from both path on cpu is something to benchmark I guess.

For people which have never used Cal files in Sonar, follow these steps:

1) In Sonar or HomeStudio check in Options / Global where is the Cal folder
2) Copy and paste this script in a file, save the file as Pitch_RANDOM.CAL in the Cal Folder
3) In Sonar drag repetitive notes which sound as machine gun.
4) Hit Ctrl + F1 and double click on Pitch_RANDOM.CAL

Check if it fits your convenience.

Instead of using Ctrl + F1 a short key can be created in options / shortcut (Sorry my software is french).

Cal is really powerful and underestimated nowadays.

SergeD

[TheoKrueger]

I started into ScottCairns illustrated directions and got as far (not very!) as "Hit the same key 20 times" when it was "what key?" since no "key" had been mentioned before? Key? Is this a button? One of the representational keys on the kyboard? A real keyboard key? Huh?



Hey Kevin sorry about that step man!

I meant that after that point, the whole thing is ready to go and you can see the Random notes in action by hitting a key repetitively in the Kontakt Piano/Keyboard 20 times. So each time you would get a different random sound :)

But you nailed it ;)

[TheoKrueger]

Here is how to do 10 Notes RR Up/Down bows as per Scott's request ;)
You will need a Up/Down strings patch to start with

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/journeyofsols_music.htm -> Small demo

www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep1.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep2.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep3.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep4.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep5.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep6.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep7.jpg
www.fallofautumn.com/theo/bstep8.jpg

For more details in the process, there are some steps explained better in the other pictures ( Like turning auto-move root key off )

[Scott Cairns]

Hi Guys, Ive updated Theo's file with Step 7 and an explanation at the start;

http://www.scottcairns.com/Machine_Gun_Elimination_Technique_by_Theo_Krueger. pdf

Cheers,

Scott.

P.S. Bugger, just realised I spelt your surname wrong Theo, will fix it first chance I get. :o

(Edit: spelling fixed)

[KevinKauai]

Scott, Theo - -

Sometimes I'm a complete idiot! Since the pages weren't numbered (why is that a problem in producing PDFs? happens to me, also!) I didn't realize that my default had been set to "Reverse Pages" so when it came out of the printer, I dutifully reversed it, going right to the LAST step. I'm going to try again and assume others had better luck!

QUESTION: Do you think handling TEN reptitions is really necessary? Are there cases where you really are concerned with the first note completely decaying when you are about to strike the SIXTH? (Or am I missing some logic here?)

Thanks for this development, Theo and Scott!

;) KevinKauai

[Stefan Podell]

Important note I haven't seen mentioned yet:

The notes at the ends of the range do not work as implemented. Since the samples have been shifted, the last two notes on each end are incompletely covered -- for example, the CBS patch (range C0 - G2) has only 3 of the 5 groups covering C0 and G2, and 4 of the 5 groups covering C#0 and F#2. (Also, you end up with 2 and 1 sample covering B-1,G#2 and A#-1,A2, respectively.

It's simple enough to delete the extraneous samples and stretch the end samples to cover the full range of the instrument. I just wanted to mention it here for those who are doing this.

- Stefan

[Craig_L]

Sounds very effective to me. Thanks for the tip guys. Does anyone know if you can do the same editing in the full version of Kompakt? Then I won't need to buy Kontakt which is a lot more expensive. Thanks.

[metrobot]

I've just gotta say, as a fan of Synful, and devotee of VSL, (and proud Silver user) your repitition demos are amazing. If EWQL doesn't react to your valuable concept, they are walking away from a gold-egg-laying goose.

[TheoKrueger]

Thanks guys!

Stefan you are right. I suppose you checked the older PDF which didn't have the 7th picture. Sorry for that. New PDF has all steps :)

I've just gotta say, as a fan of Synful, and devotee of VSL, (and proud Silver user) your repitition demos are amazing. If EWQL doesn't react to your valuable concept, they are walking away from a gold-egg-laying goose.

Metrobot thanks for your kind words! This trick is good, i agree but it was just a very simple concept that works well. As i see it, the GOLD-en Eggs had already been laid by EW, i just cooked them with a different recipe. I ain't no goose :)

There is one more spicy recipe which i will be sharing as soon as i get time to put it all together.

Until then, so long fellows!

[Stefan Podell]

There is one more spicy recipe which i will be sharing as soon as i get time to put it all together.

Me likes spicy food!!!!

[Hawkes]

I was just wondering if anyone at EW/QL has any opinion on whether or not this might someday be available as an update to Gold? Or, should I start saving for Kontakt2?

[ken roche]

Start saving--
I had an issue with one sample ( just one) and couldnt get thru the tech support protocol. Rhys did return an e-mail in fairness and granted they cant follow every fringe request, but its easier to buy Kontakt and learn a few editing tricks. My issue was with a sus oboe sample number 67 or G4 and to eliminate the pulse I was hearing I replaced the sample with F# and stretched it.
The library has very few issues.
KR

[Empire]

Does this technique work on other instruments?Like bass or guitar samples?

[Clockworker]

Yes... I think!

But Theo, we need a version for Silver :)

and like you know i don't really understand how do understand this method O_o

[Paulie]

I have created a Kontakt 2 script that applies the "Machine Gun Elimination" methods.

The script allows the user to select four samples that will be tuned to the pitch of the pressed key. This is done by using the four offset knobs.

It is possible for the script to attempt to play samples that do not exist i.e. Notes above or below the available range. To correct this I have added two knobs; one to select the lowest available note and the other to select the highest available note. To help with this The number of the last note you played is displayed in the GUI.

There is also a dropdown menu to allow you to choose random or round-robin playback.

I would appreciate it if you would give me your opinions on the script.

http://www.paulwaring.co.uk/mgk.nkp (http://www.paulwaring.co.uk/mgk.nkp)

Regards,

Paul